Why are we saying 'sorry' to the aboriginals?!

[trinity]

i will agree with you on 'have difficulty' rather then 'not want to' integrate into our society. wish i had the problem's solution; but i don't.

Agree too. But I think the issue we have is, Money/Compensation/Hand-out is not the solution. That's the easy way... dole has not done them any good, so what would this compensation do for them?

 

[disarray]

It was our (white fella) gift to them after we stole their land.

thats the whole problem with this attitude, where does it end? the aborigines didn't just mystically appear in australia, they were just another wave of stone age migrants who arrived here. then they in turn had their land "stolen" by people who were sent here without any choice, maybe we should direct this whole compensation thing back to england.

this continual harping on about the past is from every minority group with an axe to grind is tedious and annoying. australia NOW is currently a liberal, free society in which almost half of the popoulation were born overseas or are first generation. the taxpayer provides generous welfare to its citizens (especially in comparison with 90% of the world) and extremely generous benefits to aboriginal communities which is taken without thanks as though it is a right, not a privilege.

EVERY SINGLE RACE in human history has been screwed by another, i'm sick of people still blathering on about slavery or conquest or the crusades or whatever in an attempt to maintain the status quo, which conveniently provides select people with a nice little industry to maintain and exploit.

an interesting experiment would be to call their bluff and offer an apology, loads of compensation and stacks of land then cut them loose, then they can be free to do whatever they want to do. no one to answer to, no one to blame from then on in, and the rest of us won't have to listen to this **** anymore.

 

[agro]

even if we do give them a whole bundle of cash to solve their issues in 10 years time under a new government i bet my bottom dollar the issue will raise again

 

[jman2007]

Yeah money isn't the answer,

Education and integration is the key imo, although I am speaking purely from my experiences of working in a remote area of WA, where they have a disproportionately large representation.

Try as we might, attempts at providing work for them fail 80% of the time, due to no-shows etc. This isn't to say that other companies in different parts of Oz have not had very good local workers. The situation is reasonably bad in the nearest town of Laverton where all aerosol cans etc have been banned from the town. Funerals are always bad news, each indigenous person is entitled to $150 to attend one, and it seems they come whether they give two sh1ts about the deceased person or not. Obviously this money is meant for accomodation and expenses incurred actually getting to the funeral, but of course most of it ends up disappearing down thirsty throats.

However, the local communities do very well from the mining boom as it is thank you very much. My company is entitled to pay royalties of 0.24% of gold produced to the traditional owners which going by our production schedule which works out to about 175-200K per year. I have no idea what becomes of this money.

Saying "sorry" isn't right imo, I am not an Australian by birth, but surely in this great county, everyone has an equal opportunity to mark out his/her own destiny?

jman

 

[Flying Fish]

Being a migrant, I do not totally understand this "stolen" generation issue. Could someone provide an unbiased summary of this?


Thanks.

Truth is the mortality rate among indegenious australian was appaling back then. They were rescued, and i have spoken with many seniour leaders.

Those kicking up a fuss have no idea.

 

[roland]

Why the hell don't the Aboriginals want to assimilate? Last time I went to Wilcania, it didn't look like a place I would like to bring up children.

Every Aboriginal have the same rights and opportunities to advance themselves and fit into an ever changing world.

Irrespective of their perception regarding ownership, land rights, sacred sites etc, etc we (the Aboriginals included) are all parts of the bigger picture of Natural Selection, and Survival of the Fittest (Darwinisms - sorry).

If it were not for the British Empire "invasion", then who would have followed? What would have been their plight under a different rule?

Not much unlike being born within a repressive religion, Aboriginal children around the world are being indocrinated and environmentally conditioned by their parents, and thus the perpetuation of the seperatism and rebellion against the democratic law makers.

Is it sentimentalism that makes the world as a whole want to hold and keep sacred and islolated our indiginous cultures and peoples? It's very romantic to think we can go somewhere and see how people lived off the land way back in the past.

As each and every one of us strives to improve our short lives, do what we can to fit in and compete, to increase our wealth and belongings to benefit our offspring - I wonder what benefit of lot of the indinginous elders/parents are passing on to their offspring.

 

[Judd]

I have one question. What is of value in the outback aboriginal communities that would warrant large amounts of money for investment purposes? Cannot see British Airways establishing an aircraft engine maintenance facility 100 km to the south west of Ayers Rock (or whatever it is called in PC terms) just to provide work for indigenous people. If there is not the return - and stuff the lively warm inner glow feeling - no funds will be going that way to kick around in red dust apart from those that are already there - in mining.

So get used to it. Kick up the dust in an unproductive area, keep on sprouting we love this land and spiral into oblivion or recognise that upward progress requires that a lot of things must be left behind. Not forgotten but just left behind.

Now, if I can find that lot of Anglo's who kicked my Pic ancestors out of our valleys, I'll sue I tell you. Damn, that's right - we lost that war.

 

[Stormin_Norman]

thats the whole problem with this attitude, where does it end? the aborigines didn't just mystically appear in australia, they were just another wave of stone age migrants who arrived here. then they in turn had their land "stolen" by people who were sent here without any choice, maybe we should direct this whole compensation thing back to england.

cook was sent out with express instructions to gain a treaty with the local people if they wanted to with the british.

cook wrote that the aboriginals did not care for his goods, and discarded them and had no need for european contact.

no treaty with the aboriginals was ever signed.

it is the english crown military law which underpins australia's legal system still.

the underlying law in the land would be aboriginal, and until a surrender treaty is signed, the english crown is still really only an occupying force.

 

[Julia]

This might seem somewhat off topic, but reading through this thread obviously what we're discussing is whether a past action by a government has turned out to be wrong, and if so, whether the present government should (a) apologise, and (b) pay monetary compensation.

What about the huge numbers of mentally ill people who - throughout the world, not just in Australia - because of a belief at the time by that generation of clever psychiatrists that the mentally ill should not be hospitalised, were turfed out of the only secure environment they knew and left to fend for themselves.

Sure, governments promised they would "care for people in the community"
but it just didn't happen.

So isn't this yet another group of disadvantaged people who, on the basis of this discussion, would be similarly entitled to an apology and compensation?

What's the difference?

Ah, the mentally ill don't really have a Voice. In contrast to the Aboriginal lobby.

 

[Judd]

What about the huge numbers of mentally ill people who - throughout the world, not just in Australia - because of a belief at the time by that generation of clever psychiatrists that the mentally ill should not be hospitalised, were turfed out of the only secure environment they knew and left to fend for themselves.

In Australia this was a very bad consequence of the "Richmond report." No Government, State or Federal, actually implemented all of that report's recommendations and simply closed the psychiatric institutions as a cost saving measure.

 

[roland]

This might seem somewhat off topic, but reading through this thread obviously what we're discussing is whether a past action by a government has turned out to be wrong, and if so, whether the present government should (a) apologise, and (b) pay monetary compensation.

What about the huge numbers of mentally ill people who - throughout the world, not just in Australia - because of a belief at the time by that generation of clever psychiatrists that the mentally ill should not be hospitalised, were turfed out of the only secure environment they knew and left to fend for themselves.

Sure, governments promised they would "care for people in the community"
but it just didn't happen.

So isn't this yet another group of disadvantaged people who, on the basis of this discussion, would be similarly entitled to an apology and compensation?

What's the difference?

Ah, the mentally ill don't really have a Voice. In contrast to the Aboriginal lobby.

wow, I am getting confused with all the crossroads that can happen with a thread like this

we all have our own agenda

mentally ill people??? well, that's pretty sad - what shall we do?

how about my mother, who in German occupied Holland had her family torn apart by the Germans with my grandfather taken to a concentration camp - she is Australian now, so am I - who should pay - how much?

how about my Great Great Grandfather, forced out of Prussia by the Polish because they were German, family members murdered on the escape to Australia, the descendants are all Australian now - who should pay - how much?

how about my other Great Great Grandfather, convicted as a criminal for stealing a coat to try and keep a child from freazing to death and then being transported to Australia, torn apart from his family and children - who should pay - how much?

Nearly every family have a stolen generation tale, why should the Australian Aboriginals have so much priority in the while debate?

Try looking at some of our Jewish Australians and tell me the Aboriginals are more entitled to special treatment.

 

[wayneL]

I want reparations from the Romans, Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Vikings, Normans etc that have kicked our Briton @rses too. I was eyeing off a nice detached in Wimbledon and believe I should have it as compensation.

The list of sorrys goes a long way dunnit.

That said, we should feel some empathy for them (and others). The more I learn, the less I think I know an answer. One thing is certain, we can point fingers at them, us, or somebody else, but between us us all the whole situation is FUBAR.

 

[Judd]

.....The more I learn, the less I think I know an answer..........

Not too sure that there is one. I was born in 1958. Family talked about my Uncle who in WWII was last seen on a ridge somewhere in Borneo fending off "the enemy."

One of my best friends who is about my age is Japanese. Should I blame him or his three children - all born in Australia - for the death of my Uncle and the distress it caused to the family and ask for compensation from him and the Japanese Government?

Like, get real. Sh*t both good and bad happens. Live with it, recognise it and just move on.

I could talk about another close friend who follows the Muslim faith but that is another issue.

 

[Stormin_Norman]

Not too sure that there is one. I was born in 1958. Family talked about my Uncle who in WWII was last seen on a ridge somewhere in Borneo fending off "the enemy."

One of my best friends who is about my age is Japanese. Should I blame him or his three children - all born in Australia - for the death of my Uncle and the distress it caused to the family and ask for compensation from him and the Japanese Government?

yes. but youre hardly going to be happy if the japanese claimed they were invading to help us and that you should get over it.

 

[cuttlefish]

like, get real. Sh*t both good and bad happens. Live with it, recognise it and just move on.

If you use that same logic then the asbestos victims of james hardie shouldn't get compensation. Car accident victims shouldn't get compensation. War veterans shouldn't get pensions etc. etc. and anything a past government did, even if its just one term ago, isn't the responsibility of future governments or the people. Corneilia Rau shouldn't be compensated etc.

There might be nothing wrong with that either, but if its going to be the approach then it should be applied consistently.

 

[agro]

If you use that same logic then the asbestos victims of james hardie shouldn't get compensation. Car accident victims shouldn't get compensation. War veterans shouldn't get pensions etc. etc. and anything a past government did, even if its just one term ago, isn't the responsibility of future governments or the people. Corneilia Rau shouldn't be compensated etc.

There might be nothing wrong with that either, but if its going to be the approach then it should be applied consistently.

i'd like to gather people with similar attitudes as you, put them all together and ask them to pay for any compensation claims - same deal with the illegal immigrants and refugees, too many do gooder polticial correctness

because , for me, i would much simply prefer to give my hard earned towards hospitals and education than welfare handouts that will be spent on the pokies

 

[cuttlefish]

how about my mother, who in German occupied Holland had her family torn apart by the Germans with my grandfather taken to a concentration camp - she is Australian now, so am I - who should pay - how much?

The government that was responsible for perpetrating those atrocities had most of it senior members sentenced to death after the war and ended up with a huge war crimes debt, so I don't see how this is comparable to the aboriginal situation where the government hasn't officially apologised for stealing children from their families or paid any kind of compensation or carried out any sort of punishment against the perpetrators.

From wikipedia

Reparations to the western victors consisted mainly of free coal deliveries as well as of machinery and dismantled factories, of which the majority went to France, with some going to Britain. Germany and Italy also paid in the form of POW-provided forced labor; 100,000 in Britain and 700,000 in France. The U.S settled for appropriating German patents as well as all German company assets in the U.S. The "intellectual reparations", such as patents and blueprints, taken by the U.S. and the UK amounted to close to $10 billion, equivalent of around $100 billion in 2006 terms.[1] The program of also acquiring German scientists and technicians for the U.S. was also used to deny the expertise of German scientists to the Soviet Union.[2]

 

[cuttlefish]

i'd like to gather people with similar attitudes as you, put them all together and ask them to pay for any compensation claims - same deal with the illegal immigrants and refugees, too many do gooder polticial correctness

because , for me, i would much simply prefer to give my hard earned towards hospitals and education than welfare handouts that will be spent on the pokies

The fact is that children were stolen from their parents, the government did it, and an apology is owed for this. If compensation results so be it. Do you dictate how asbestos victims spend their money? Would you understand if a vietnam veteran turned into an alcoholic? Should their pension be stopped because of it?

There's also plenty of wealthy people living of investment incomes p*ssing money up against the wall and not doing much for society as well.

The government hands out baby bonuses - a lot of that probably goes up against the wall as well.

Take a look at hollywood - lot of fine examples of culture for the aboriginal community to take a lead from there. I don't see anyone asking Britney to give her money back. Pretty sure she wasn't stolen from her mother as a child.

To me its hypocrisy to single this particular issue out and treat it differently to any other issue of government responsibility/compensation.

 

[Rogue Trading]

How and where do I get $150 for going to a funeral?
We are all Australians aren't we?
Regards.
Rogue Trading

 

[cuttlefish]

How and where do I get $150 for going to a funeral?
We are all Australians aren't we?
Regards.
Rogue Trading

These sorts of welfare perks I completely agree are ridiculous. I don't see why there should be differential welfare treatment for aboriginals just because of race. If the above is true it's quite bizzarre. Its the small things like aboriginals getting a govt funded taxi from the pub to their govt funded housing that creates resentment in the community, and maintains the welfare trap. (doesn't change my view that compensation if it occurs for the stolen generation should be treated/viewed differently, and consistently with any other govt compensation issue, in the same way I also think that welfare should be dished out consistently - one set of rules for all - either way - same for policing and judicial treatment).