Why are we saying 'sorry' to the aboriginals?!

[--B--]

Saying sorry to the aboriginal people will do nothing but reinforce their victim mentality which has been the primary issue holding them back from being equal members of society.

Saint Kev seems to think saying sorry is going to solve all their problems, or at least make solving all these problems all that much easier. Ridiculous.

"(Then) we can get on with the business of closing the gap in terms of life expectancy, education levels and health levels between indigenous and non-indigenous communities."

Wow,..

While Kev remains steadfast that no compensation fund will be set up this doesnt mean claims wont still be made against the government for the 'wrongdoings' of the past.

I eagerly await the outcome of this and sincerely hope our generation arent forced to pay for this because Kevin likes to be the good guy to everyone. Kev is a smart guy and the delay in saying 'sorry' is telling me a very carefully worded statement is being prepared....

 

[MS+Tradesim]

"We" are not saying sorry, the Government is.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national.../2008/01/29/1201369084589.html?s_cid=rss_news

Then that would be Rudd talking through his .... The Govt is democratically elected to act and speak on behalf of the people. An apology by the Govt is a de facto apology by the people. If Rudd is not speaking on behalf of the people he will lose any authority to establish a compensation fund (assuming such a thing happened) which would be composed of the people's money, held and administrated in trust by the Govt. He has painted himself into a corner. His only "out" is to establish a privately funded coffer to which those who agree can pay into. Will this happen? Nope. The taxpayers will foot the cost and Rudd will have made mistake number one since gaining office. Will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Happy]

From ABC, 28 Jan. 08

'SORRY' MORE IMPORTANT THAN COMPENSATION: STOLEN GENERATIONS ALLIANCE


The Stolen Generations Alliance says the wording of an official apology is more important than compensation at this stage, but compensation could still be sought.
The Federal Government has sought advice on the legal ramifications of an apology but doesn't expect compensation claims from members of the Stolen Generations.
Jackie Baxter, a delegate of the Alice Springs based alliance, says compensation should be discussed but only after the apology is made.
"It could be in the form of compensation for some people. It could be in the form of ... parenting programs, return to country for people, linguistics.
"Now these are all recommendations from the Bringing Them Home report and at this stage they have never been fully implemented and they're the sort of things that we're talking about."
Ms Baxter says there is a diversity of views about the timing and content of the apology and it will be difficult to please everyone, but there is consensus about including the word "sorry".
"The main word is the 'sorry' because that's one of the recommendations and that's what we've been pushing for over 12 years in Central Australia."

They want both, and it is very clear:

official apology is more important than compensation at this stage, but compensation could still be sought.

 

[Prospector]

Were they stolen or rescued? Were they not removed from squallor, fed, clothed, educated, housed, given access to modern medicine.

Unfortunately that wasn't the case. The children were often taken away from homes where they had been cared for properly, simply because people thought they would be 'better off'. But often that meant they were put in foster homes where they became servants, or into orphanages.

 

[2020hindsight]

Rudd will have made mistake number one since gaining office. Will be interesting to see what happens.

well at least you admit he hasn't made any mistakes yet

MS - He'll do what he does, and face the public at the next election I guess.

Would it be fair to say he's not gonna get many votes next time by posters on this thread even if he parts the waters of the Pacific to give us a highway to travel to US?.

PS I agree it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[cuttlefish]

So what. Say sorry, pay compensation if the court deems it, acknowlege that there have been past wrongs and these have contributed heavily to the current situation, acknowledge the unfair treatment that these people have suffered.

I don't have a problem with it. The government can apologise on my behalf. If there's a cost involved, so be it.

Personally reading some of the stuff on this thread about 'doing them a favour by removing them' it seems that the same mistake could easily be repeated today and the same suffering inflicted. I think the story should be told and acknowledged so that it can be put behind them and us. Its a part of Australian history that we shouldn't feel proud of and I don't see why subsequent generations shouldn't feel a desire to address the wrongs of past generations.

Although I acknowledge serious and entrenched problems exist in aboriginal communities I also find the current intervention approach disconcerting and worry that there are implications to this approach that haven't been fully considered.

There's no doubt that the dependency and welfare mentality situation is one of the biggest problems with aboriginal communities. Aboriginals need to create and maintain their own social structure to come out of this situation.

In some ways I see intervention just a repeat of the mistakes of the past - whites attempting to 'look after' the aboriginals because they can't 'look after' themselves.

Instead I believe we should be looking for an approach that forces the aboriginal community to take responsibility for their situation and thus forces them to act to address it. Funding needs to be directed to encourage the development of a social structure. To me policing is one big area where there are inconsistencies that don't serve the aboriginal community well.

A general lack of structure and purpose created by the welfare trap is also definitely one of the biggest problems and so entrenched in their community psyche that it is difficult to see how to create change in that regard.

The problem has been ignored for a very long time under the Howard government which hasn't helped the situation.

Urgent action has been needed for a long time. Maybe hindsight will show that the intervention into the communities is the best way to go but I would be looking for other approaches. Clearly the current situation isn't working though.

 

[SilverDollar]

Can't quite believe you lot.

Oh course the aboriginal people should get an apology and a helping hand to get them back on track. Greedy rich people worried over a few dollars of tax. The past ill treatment of the aborigine people is not in the past.. so we can not leave it there.. the effects of these ill treatments pass from generation to the next therefore Australians should be feel obliged and want to help where possible. Money and effort must be expended to break current cycles of poverty, dependance etc.. and yes you should contribute through tax. Its about building a better Australia. How can a young aboriginal child born into some of the communities we see expect to break out and succeed with out external support. Everyone deserves a chance in life.

I am done with this thread and am not entering debate, no more posts.

 

[moXJO]

So what. Say sorry, pay compensation if the court deems it, acknowlege that there have been past wrongs and these have contributed heavily to the current situation, acknowledge the unfair treatment that these people have suffered.

I think it was the late 80's and early 90's that showed handouts just don’t work. I have no problem with millions being used on a sensible plan to address the problems and help the communities. But there comes a point where they actually have to exert some effort themselves to move ahead. Compensation will just bring back resentment from taxpayers (no doubt the media will fan the flames)

 

[Happy]

How can a young aboriginal child born into some of the communities we see expect to break out and succeed with out external support. Everyone deserves a chance in life.

It almost begs to say that maybe, maybe child should be removed from that environment?

Maybe wealthy, well educated members of their own race could take care of them, so other races’ people do not have to worry about how $orry to be in another 100 years.

I think I am done too.

 

[Nyden]

First off, their current problems of abuse, drug abuse, & unemployment are not tied to this stolen generation situation.

How I would rectify this? By doing nothing. Suspend all racial advantages, suspend all welfare payments, & let them do whatever they like. Nature will run its course, & one way or another their problems will be solved.

They would obviously be forced at that point to either fully return to their tribal ways of living off the land; or get jobs, clothes, cars, homes, mortgages, & enter western society with the rest of us.

There is only so much money to go round, & we can't be constructing cities out there in the middle of the desert for these people.

What will compensation achieve? What will an apology achieve?! What, we say sorry, cut them a cheque, & all their problems / victimization suddenly comes to an end? Rubbish. They'll find something else.


What about quality, & equality for all Australians? They have their own flag for goodness sake, & as far as I'm concerned they should receive nothing from us. How is it fair that they get discounted school education? Discounted home loans? All of this based on race!

I pay tax, I'm not a greedy millionaire "fat cat" looking to save a couple of dollars, I just expect that the money to be used on community benefit. I expect to be able to go in for surgery without a 6 month waiting period, I expect my future children to be able to be educated in a school where the teachers actually know the subject they're teaching.


All of the solutions to their problems lie right here, in civilization. They can come to the city, buy themselves a house with their discounted interest rate, seek free therapy (I'm sure), go into rehabilitation programs, & they can live their damn lives!


Help those who help themselves, isn't that the motto? Until they do this, as cold as it sounds, let them sort themselves out.

 

[Edwood]

But, that's the thing - it would be our generation financially paying for the mistakes of another. I refuse to do that.

there's a bit more to it than money though isn't there - respect for one thing. acknowledging that what was done was wrong. your ancestors have taken their land & destroyed their culture. will you be aggrieved when another culture takes over Australia? it may happen sooner than you think

 

[agro]

Heh. Bloody Rudd is already losing me money.

Rudd is like Santa Clause, spending all the money in the bank and run us into debt..

i wonder how many promises he keeps - he is trying to cut hospital waiting lists yet does not understand there is NOT enough nurses and doctors!!

also, i know someone (anglo) who was stolen from their parents - whats the chances of them getting compo claims etc

as roland said, which would they rather have 'compo pay outs' or 'a genuine sorry'??

 

[robert toms]

Even the richest man in Babylon should not be deprived of his mother.
I wonder why people are unable to see the victims' side of this sad,reprehensible saga.
Some of the most spurious,irrelevant and racist comments have appeared in opposition to common decency.(on these forums)
If it takes saying sorry and compensation being paid ,so be it!

 

[cuttlefish]

I think it was the late 80's and early 90's that showed handouts just don’t work. I have no problem with millions being used on a sensible plan to address the problems and help the communities. But there comes a point where they actually have to exert some effort themselves to move ahead. Compensation will just bring back resentment from taxpayers (no doubt the media will fan the flames)

And if you read further in my post I acknowledge the problems of the welfare mentality - there's no doubt this is the biggest problem in this community.

But I think that compensation for the stolen generation is a separate issue, and an inevitable part of acknowledging the wrongs of the past will be that compensation will come up - its tokenism to apologise but not be willing to bare financial compensation along side it in our litigous modern age.

That being said its unfortunate that the aboriginal community seems so focused on the financial/compensation aspect rather than symbolic aspect of it and reflects again the entrenched welfare/"govt owes us a living" mentality that is part of their community psyche. I think they would be better served asking for other gestures such as education on the stolen generation being made part of the school curriculum, acknowledgement of it in other symbolic forms that will help with the awareness and healing process.

 

[Nyden]

there's a bit more to it than money though isn't there - respect for one thing. acknowledging that what was done was wrong. your ancestors have taken their land & destroyed their culture. will you be aggrieved when another culture takes over Australia? it may happen sooner than you think

Heh, Australia doesn't have a culture to destroy : We live in a Global world now, if you don't like a country it's as simple as packing up & leaving ... at least for Western society.

We've already acknowledged that something has been done wrong, everyone already knows this. They specifically want an apology though; why? For financial gain. The liability of the government admitting they made a mistake.

If they want an apology under the agreement of no financial restitution, then fine. I'll even apologize to them

I'm just tired of the attempt to always place a guilt on certain races; I'm German, does this mean I should forever feel guilt for certain atrocities as well? Heck, I should just live my life in misery because of what all of my people have done throughout history.

 

[MS+Tradesim]

Can't quite believe you lot.

Greedy rich people worried over a few dollars of tax.

Emotive response based on uninformed assumptions noted.

They do not need compensation. They need the same things everyone needs...access to healthcare, education, decent housing, etc

 

[agro]

Emotive response based on uninformed assumptions noted.

They do not need compensation. They need the same things everyone needs...access to healthcare, education, decent housing, etc

in that case.. how about we put the compensation towards them getting the education?? start training them up???


makes more sense than a hand out - here u go spend it on booze

 

[Nyden]

in that case.. how about we put the compensation towards them getting the education?? start training them up???


makes more sense than a hand out - here u go spend it on booze

Petrol, not booze. Premium (vintage) "wine" :

Couldn't agree more though, I'm all for them training / getting an education if they want it.
Give a man a fish ... teach a man to fish ...

 

[cuttlefish]

How I would rectify this? By doing nothing. Suspend all racial advantages, suspend all welfare payments, & let them do whatever they like. Nature will run its course, & one way or another their problems will be solved.

I agree there is strong resentment about the differential welfare treatment that the aboriginal community receives. I think they should change it as well. Similarly there needs to be more consistency in other aspects of aboriginal vs non-aboriginal treatment - including health, education and policing/judiciary.

The welfare situation creates a welfare trap, a dependency mentality and also breeds strong resentment amongst non-aboriginals that share the same socio-economic basis but don't get the same welfare treatment.

It should be addressed as a social problem not a race problem. So funding towards it should be directed at communities that need it, regardless of race, and in a consistent manner. The same goes for the way policing, health and education resources are directed - it shouldn't be directed on race but towards area's where there are social problems that require it - whether that be a remote aboriginal community or a western sydney predominately white community, the resources should be consistently directed to areas that have violence, crime, unemployment and/or health problems. And the application of these resources should be done in a consistent manner - policing should be consistent across communities, the judiciary should be consistent in punishment for different types of crimes etc. Now there are all sorts of inconsistencies in this area, arrest rates for certain crimes are higher, imprisonment rates for other types of crime, or repeat offences are lower etc.

I still see the compensation issue for the stolen generation as separate to the general issue of welfare and funding.

 

[trinity]

in that case.. how about we put the compensation towards them getting the education?? start training them up???
makes more sense than a hand out - here u go spend it on booze

While we are at it, I think the whole welfare system should be revamped!

I still see the compensation issue for the stolen generation as separate to the general issue of welfare and funding.

How do you reckon they will spend the compensation on? I think Nyden put it rightly by saying, he has moved on, so have the victims of WWII and all other races. Why can't we help the aboriginals move on?