The West has lost its freedom of speech

My respect to the victims of the Islamic terrorist attack on the journalists of the Charlie Hebdo newspaper.

My condolences to all their families.

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

Agree, dutchie

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18326&page=5

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

Sadly, Islam has won.

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

DB008 said:

Sadly, Islam has won.

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I strongly disagree:
It's not "Islam" that has committed these atrocities, but a bunch of extremist nutters.
And they will only have "won" if we let them dictate how we react to their evil ideology, which may be based on an interpretation of parts of the Qur'an, but is definitely not shared by "all Muslims".

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

pixel said:

I strongly disagree:
It's not "Islam" that has committed these atrocities, but a bunch of extremist nutters.
And they will only have "won" if we let them dictate how we react to their evil ideology, which may be based on an interpretation of parts of the Qur'an, but is definitely not shared by "all Muslims".

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I think you'll find that a very large % of muslims would support laws that prohibited the kinds of cartoons that the French magazine published.

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

banco said:

I think you'll find that a very large % of muslims would support laws that prohibited the kinds of cartoons that the French magazine published.

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Maybe a large % of Christians would want the same, as that magazine lampooned all religion not just Islam, but they have to learn that the same system that supports freedom of religion also supports freedom of speech. One without the other is not acceptable.

This atrocity should finally put paid to the notion in France and the rest of Europe that this "evil idealogy" can co-exist with the values held by Western democracies. Brendan O'Neill,editor of spiked writes;

TODAY is a dark day for Europe. The barbaric assault on the offices of the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo is an attack most immediately on the journalists and cartoonists who worked there, 12 of whom are dead, executed in cold blood for the ‘crime’ of saying what they think. But this horrific act was also an attack on Europe itself, on all of us, on our fundamental right to freedom of thought and speech. None of us can feel the pain currently being felt by the friends and families of the murdered journalists and illustrators - but all of us should feel assaulted by this massacre, for it is designed to chill us and make us cower, to make us censor ourselves or else suffer the consequences

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Enough. The Paris massacre shows us the terrible dangers of this new Endarkenment, this retreat from freedom of thought and speech and this unleashing of a new, seemingly PC intolerance. The best, most civilised response to this barbaric act is to promise that we will defend freedom of speech every time it is threatened, stop kowtowing to the offended, and stand up to every mob, campaign group, thug and gunman that think they have the right to silence others. That’s what spiked plans to do - to embolden even further our fight for the right to be offensive, in memory of the journalists at Charlie Hebdo and in the name of freedom and Enlightenment.

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http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...k-day-for-europe/story-e6frg6so-1227177920577

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

SirRumpole said:

Maybe a large % of Christians would want the same, as that magazine lampooned all religion not just Islam, but they have to learn that the same system that supports freedom of religion also supports freedom of speech. One without the other is not acceptable.

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This is just BS false equivalence. "oh but the the christians"

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

pixel said:

I strongly disagree:
It's not "Islam" that has committed these atrocities, but a bunch of extremist nutters.
.

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you can't have one without the other. If you raise millions of children with the belief that a certain book is the word of god, a certain percentage always going to take it literally.

Beliefs inform actions, and when a large group believes nonsense, don't be surprised when we have some terrible side effects happening.

We could go another thousand years condemning extremism, but saying moderate religion is good, and we will have thousand years of extremism.

The only way to get rid of extremism is move away from moderate religion and other supernatural stuff in favour of rational thoughts. As long as moderate religion gets respect and is viewed as good, children will continue to be lied to and indoctrinated, and a certain percentage will become extremists.

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

Value Collector said:

you can't have one without the other. If you raise millions of children with the belief that a certain book is the word of god, a certain percentage always going to take it literally.

.

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A central tenet of islam is taking the Koran literally.

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

banco said:

This is just BS false equivalence. "oh but the the christians"

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Not really, Australia does have blasphemy laws, although the last person charged and sentenced was in 1919, for a piece of satire (sound familiar)

The Crown last laid a charge of blasphemous libel in 1919. The case concerned socialist journalist Robert Samuel Ross, who had published a satirical piece in which Bolsheviks ransack heaven. The prosecutor dropped the charge but proceeded on a charge of sending blasphemous materials through the mail. The Court convicted Ross, and sentenced him to six months of hard labour.[2]

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However, in our not to distant past western countries have put people to death for blasphemy.

Also, in the last few years Christians in Africa have put "witches" to death by burning them alive, so taking religious texts literally and do nasty things is not just a muslim thing.

It is however less common in Christianity, because Christianity has been suppressed by secular society for a much longer period of time, So they mainly just threaten to burn you in hell after you die rather than literally burn you alive like they used to.

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

banco said:

A central tenet of islam is taking the Koran literally.

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it's the central tenant of many Christian faiths also.

Agree, Calliope, and section 18C should have been changed.

Are you still going on with this PC garbage, VC.

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

pixel said:

It's not "Islam" that has committed these atrocities, but a bunch of extremist nutters.

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That seems to be the popular excuse. It was also used in the Sydney seige. It is bullsh!t. It is well oganised.

The CIA estimates that ISIS has a fighting strength of 20,000 ”” at minimum. The high-end estimate is 31,500

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.
All dedicated Islamist "nutters" A big bunch indeed.

http://www.vox.com/2014/9/12/6138977/isis-iraq-numbers

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

banco said:

This is just BS false equivalence. "oh but the the christians"

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Pity you didn't take in all of my post.

Tink said:

Are you still going on with this PC garbage, VC.

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?????

What are you talking about?

What have I said here that has anything to do with Political correctness?

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They closest topic I have mentioned to political correctness is the anti blasphemy laws, which I oppose, charging people with blasphemy would be enforcing political correctness in the highest degree.

By the way, What's your opinion on blasphemy laws?

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

SirRumpole said:

Pity you didn't take in all of my post.

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If you are trying to argue that the average Christian in the West has similar views to the average muslim on whether satire dealing with religion should be prohibited/punished you are either being disingenuous or you are a fool.

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

banco said:

If you are trying to argue that the average Christian in the West has similar views to the average muslim on whether satire dealing with religion should be prohibited/punished you are either being disingenuous or you are a fool.

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I simply said that all religions have to learn that freedom of speech comes with freedom of religion in western countries anyway. If you want one you have to accept the other.

If you couldn't comprehend that from my first post, then you are the fool.

Calliope said:

That seems to be the popular excuse. It was also used in the Sydney seige. It is bullsh!t. It is well oganised.

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Islam inspired violence seems the most appropriate description for current events though even this will likely be criticized by the apologists for religion here. It's all too convenient to excuse the Islamic faith from any blame for the actions of "criminal extremists" who presumably misinterpret this so called religion of peace. I would argue that the "nutters" are simply literalists who take their faith to seriously.

How should one interpret and act on the verses below if you're a devout Muslim literalist/fundamentalist? What "context" allows one to cast such statements in a peaceful light?

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:39) And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.8:67. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

Quran (9:29) Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:33) It is He {Allah} Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).

Quran (2:191-193) "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where
they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo!
Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah]and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression

Re: The West has lost it's freedom of speech

SirRumpole said:

Maybe a large % of Christians would want the same, as that magazine lampooned all religion not just Islam, but they have to learn that the same system that supports freedom of religion also supports freedom of speech. One without the other is not acceptable.

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What are you basing this statement on other than your opinion? I don't really recall any example of Christians or any other religion making threats against these types of satire magazines never mind carrying out an attack. Yet we have many examples of Muslims condemning such coverage with the threat of violence.