Worst drought ever

[Prospector]

But the 7.30 report tonight... has done nothing for my stereotype with farmers and the SA problem. Seriously, how stupid are SA farmers?

Complain about the environmental status, feign to be "murray defenders", and when emergency plans about saving a world heritage site are mooted... nup... can't have that! Too bad about the sulfuric acid!! Screw that, we want to irrigate!!!

Farkin farmers!

The penny clearly has not dropped. Even when they are trucking in water to keep cattle alive, there are clearly absolutely no contingency plans. But nup... irrigation up the river should be stopped so WE can irrigate! Bloody hell... don't they even listen to what they say? Makes me so angry.

They have to either switch to other methods, or give up. There is no way they can survive.

Problem is chops, that emergency relief will kill off Lakes Alexandrina and Albert forever. There are many indigenous and local communities (who have lived and been sustained by the lakes FOREVER!) who now have no access to fresh water for drinking etc because they cannot be supplied with piped reservoir water and cannot use the River Murray. Water is being trucked in for them.

Whether the farmers deserve to be heard is one issue, but you are simply using them as the scapegoat to say 'their problem, their stupidity who cares! But there is a much bigger picture!

Flooding the Lakes with saltwater will not work anyway - the River Mouth is now so small that it isnt even wide enough to flush the Coorong, let alone the Lakes. It is a huge area. Have you even been there recently? The water simply will not be able to get in and out as needed to maintain a level of water that will not produce the sulphuric fumes. There will be an initial inpour (because the water in the Lakes is currently well below sea level) and then, it will balance, and recede. Leaving the lakes system a swampy mess.

And the gutlessness of the SA government, is I believe, the reason nothing is being done from other states. And you can see why. Both farmers and government are completely deluded, aren't even tackling with reality.

Oh yeah, I hear you. But the other Governments are too! It is all about the votes.

Clearly the farming is never going to be sustainable in the lower murray, ever..

It has been sustainable for decades, until rice and cotton!

Did you know their water allocation in NSW/Vic isnt even measured until it hits their meter - which can mean that water is sent over open ditch irrigation channels for kilometers from the River, and no-one pays for any of the water lost in transit from River to Meter?
Reality is knowing that the arid areas of Australia should not be growing rice or cotton. And the eastern states dont give a damn who suffers as a result.

 

[nioka]

Yeah, we get some good rain earlier in the week, and all the farmers do is complain!!!
Farkin farmers!
My respect for most Australian farmers continues to decrease.
Cheers.

Because you EAT you are involved with agriculture. My respect for farmers continues to INCREASE. To continue to produce in the current agricultural conditions certainly demands tenacity of purpose.

 

[Prospector]

Farming on the lower lakes has been sustainable for decades, until rice and cotton!

Ran out of my 20 minutes to edit..... but even the Cotton Growers Federation reported that their yield was only slightly impacted on by the drought! They continued to grow cotton, in the middle of a drought, in a desert!

 

[robert toms]

A truncated news item on the ABC about irrigators at Deniliquin,and how the reduced water allocations are affecting their town.
They have taken concerns about the government not revealing the price of its licence or water allocation purchases.
The person (from Denny) said that the family had nine farms and paid ninety thousand dollars for their water.I gather that was when they get full allocation,as the rate goes down when allocations are reduced.
Well I worked out that they are paying $6 a megalitre for this...in cities people pay about $1000 a meg.
The point is,is rice growing economic or are some farmers bludging on the rest of the population ?
There has to be some economic rationalism brought into this...should uneconomic crops be subsidised by the rest of us on the Murray?
Denny is on the Edward river..an offshoot of the Murray .
A lot of dairy farmers flood irrigate their paddocks to grow fodder for their cows..Is this econoically sound?
We should have a completely independent body to run the Murray-Darling basin..it is politics that have got us into this...and unlikely politicians will provide a solution.
Can anyone fault my figures...corrections welcomed.
I have respect for wheat farmers that have made a go of it in variable rainfall areas...especially in the mallee.

 

[Prospector]

The point is,is rice growing economic or are some farmers bludging on the rest of the population ?
There has to be some economic rationalism brought into this...should uneconomic crops be subsidised by the rest of us on the Murray?.

This is an excellent point and one I have made before If farmers paid for the full cost of water they need to use for crops that we dont need to grow in Australia, then most farms would vanish overnight because they are unsustainable economically.

With a caveat - we would need to have some kind of tax break for produce that we need to buy fresh, and not import cheaply from overseas. Like dairy, fruit and vegetables.

Oh, yeah, and I guess this means if industry paid the going rate for water, then the price of beer and coke would increase hugely!

 

[nioka]

Well I worked out that they are paying $6 a megalitre for this...in cities people pay about $1000 a meg.

This is a very misleading statement. Your water authority pays the same, or less, for water as does the farming community.The difference is the cost of the reticulation, treatment etc and includes some "creaming off" of profit by your water authority. I'm paying an annual "licence" fee for an irrigation licence which I "own" but do not use. If I use water then I will pay again for the water.
Remember too that a farmer was encouraged to irrigate to increase productivity and in many cases invested large amounts of cash in the projects. They helped make Australia the land of milk and honey which we all enjoy.
Can I say it again: "If you eat you are involved in agriculture."

 

[Prospector]

This is a very misleading statement. Your water authority pays the same, or less, for water as does the farming community.The difference is the cost of the reticulation, treatment etc and includes some "creaming off" of profit by your water authority. I'm paying an annual "licence" fee for an irrigation licence which I "own" but do not use. If I use water then I will pay again for the water.

We must start to differentiate between the cost of providing water to necessary industry, and human consumption, to giving away to those activities that are unnecessary, or indulgent in nature. We need to grow fruit and vegetables, and dairy within close proximity to population centres; we dont need to grow exotic crops we can source elsewhere and can be imported cheaply.

I dont really care if people have put money into installing the infrastructure for crops that don't belong where they have been planted. That also applies to the wineries that are near the lower lakes; as well as the rice up north.

Not everyone is enjoying the land of milk and honey.

 

[nioka]

; we dont need to grow exotic crops we can source elsewhere and can be imported cheaply..

Australia is importing more goods than the country can afford now. We have to produce more and import less. The minerals boom wont last forever. Nor will the drought.

 

[robert toms]

One argument that farmers use is that they produce the food that we eat...yes they sure do...but as I know it Australia produces enough food for 90 million people...most of this production is for export...if water was used more productively there would be a lot more produce for export...not the patently uneconomic crops.
The rest of us in our lives have to be ecomically viable without ,as in this case,special political decisions, to uneconomically use a vital resource.
All of these allocations should surely be subject to some economic examination....not first in best dressed.

 

[Julia]

I support Prospector's view. So silly to be growing rice and cotton.

Nothing wrong with importing produce which can be offered to he Australian consumer at a cheaper price for a superior product than that grown here.
I remember last Spring having the choice of two lots of asparagus in the supermarkets: one was very inferior in quality and grown locally; the other was fresh and top quality and imported from Thailand. It was exactly half the price of the local product.

If a farmer may have once had a viable and sustainable business but now - for whatever reason - no longer does, then I don't think the taxpayer should be perpetuating his unprofitable business.

No different from any other business which is not viable.

 

[Prospector]

Australia is importing more goods than the country can afford now. We have to produce more and import less. The minerals boom wont last forever. Nor will the drought.

Yeah, but you have to include plasma's and cars in that import figure! Maybe we should be cutting out those luxury things and only import items that we really need?

The drought won't last forever, but the damage has been/is being done right now. Yet this stupid agreement will do nothing for the lower lakes/Coorong for four years. Too late. Will all be dead by then.

 

[chops_a_must]

Remember too that a farmer was encouraged to irrigate to increase productivity and in many cases invested large amounts of cash in the projects. They helped make Australia the land of milk and honey which we all enjoy.
Can I say it again: "If you eat you are involved in agriculture."

So what?

Mitsubishi was encouraged to build here as well. Should they be allowed to use tax payers money indefinitely?

I dare say a lot of manufacturing money was put into the typewriting industry, why aren't they being funded to continue?

Because you EAT you are involved with agriculture. My respect for farmers continues to INCREASE. To continue to produce in the current agricultural conditions certainly demands tenacity of purpose.

To continue to produce in the same manner may be determined, but it is incredibly stupid moreso. That's my beef so to speak...

I have a few farmers who come down to see me each week from Northam. A hundred years ago, their families were irrigating and grew orchards in the Avon river region. It went brackish quick smart, and salty soon after. The area then switched to grain, not ideal, but better for the time being. The land is now going salty, but the farmers in the region are looking at changing again. My clients all have native based crops now, and have protected their land at the same time as growing grain.

All I hear from the east is "how do we keep doing the same thing?" And the answer is you don't. Obviously these farmers from the Northam area are an exception, but the solution is hardly rocket surgery.

Just takes the cantankerous old bastard farmers to get out of their rut and CHANGE something, (now that's a scary word for them!). Because frankly I'm sick of it. Do we people over here have a completely different attitude to everything? I mean, we don't just bitch about things for a decade... people just "do" things. Strange word that, do. Maybe eastern staters could look it up. Probably too hard but... you know, if wind farms affect cows too much, chances are, sustainable practice is no good for the skin.

Problem is chops, that emergency relief will kill off Lakes Alexandrina and Albert forever. There are many indigenous and local communities (who have lived and been sustained by the lakes FOREVER!) who now have no access to fresh water for drinking etc because they cannot be supplied with piped reservoir water and cannot use the River Murray. Water is being trucked in for them.

What I saw was water being trucked in for cows. Obviously more evidence to suggest that there is no real problem.

Whether the farmers deserve to be heard is one issue, but you are simply using them as the scapegoat to say 'their problem, their stupidity who cares! But there is a much bigger picture!

Well, they aren't a part of the solution, so they must be....?

Flooding the Lakes with saltwater will not work anyway - the River Mouth is now so small that it isnt even wide enough to flush the Coorong, let alone the Lakes. It is a huge area. Have you even been there recently? The water simply will not be able to get in and out as needed to maintain a level of water that will not produce the sulphuric fumes. There will be an initial inpour (because the water in the Lakes is currently well below sea level) and then, it will balance, and recede. Leaving the lakes system a swampy mess.

No I have not been, and I hope to be lucky enough to avoid SA.

It's either that or have the lakes turn into salt flats/ lakes. What do you suggest given farmers refuse to stop pulling water out?

It has been sustainable for decades, until rice and cotton!

I disagree. There is nowhere in Australia apart from parts of Victoria that can have sustainable dairy with conventional practice.

Did you know their water allocation in NSW/Vic isnt even measured until it hits their meter - which can mean that water is sent over open ditch irrigation channels for kilometers from the River, and no-one pays for any of the water lost in transit from River to Meter?
Reality is knowing that the arid areas of Australia should not be growing rice or cotton. And the eastern states dont give a damn who suffers as a result.

Yes I did know that. I just cannot stand the SA whinging to be honest though. I'm more interested in what actions you are taking as a consumer to change things.

Never in history has a downstream society survived without taking out the upstream civilisation. And as I've pointed out before, SA is an economic basket case. So what benefit does it provide over stopping other eastern state agriculture?

Remember South Australians, it's "up the Murray", not "across the stream".

we would need to have some kind of tax break for produce that we need to buy fresh, and not import cheaply from overseas. Like dairy, fruit and vegetables.

Oh, yeah, and I guess this means if industry paid the going rate for water, then the price of beer and coke would increase hugely!

Um why???

And also, you do realise the price of dairy would rise exponentially don't you?

We must start to differentiate between the cost of providing water to necessary industry, and human consumption, to giving away to those activities that are unnecessary, or indulgent in nature. We need to grow fruit and vegetables, and dairy within close proximity to population centres; we dont need to grow exotic crops we can source elsewhere and can be imported cheaply.

Again, why?

Every litre of milk you are buying means 1300L of water being pulled from the murray. It is just as bad as cotton and rice. If I was living in SA, I just would not buy milk, or buy from Victoria. That's where most of it comes from anyway. I don't see why it is so important to have a dairy farm next door. Most of the milk here is from Victoria.

Luckily here in WA, we have the Harvey collaboration, who do use water incredibly well, and have lasted their worst drought superbly. But there I go again...

I've seen lots of whinging and complaining, but no action. What are you doing on the consumer side Prospector to make sure you aren't damaging the murray?

By the way, I think we are in for a very wet winter. The ocean was incredibly warm, like a spa, over the weekend, and we've had NW winds for a week straight. A lot of rain, and the ground is quite moist, which means a lot of the moist air will get over to the east I think.

Cheers.

 

[Prospector]

I'm more interested in what actions you are taking as a consumer to change things..

Our personal consumption is down 40% from last year. We havent watered our front garden, many of the plants have died, even agapanthus which are meant to be indestructible. We use grey water. Water saving shower heads. etc

It is just as bad as cotton and rice. If I was living in SA, I just would not buy milk, or buy from Victoria. That's where most of it comes from anyway. I don't see why it is so important to have a dairy farm next door. Most of the milk here is from Victoria...

Fine, we can use milk from Victoria, but that wont help the Coorong.

It takes 100 litres of water to produce 1 BOTTLE of Beer, a kilo of rice takes 2500 litres of water, and it takes around 3 litres of water to produce 1 litre of coke. SO of course prices will rise if they pay for the true cost of the water!

I've seen lots of whinging and complaining, but no action. What are you doing on the consumer side Prospector to make sure you aren't damaging the murray?...

Yep, answered that one I think.

Quite obviously you dont like South Australia and take every opportunity to subtley or otherwise denigrate it. Probably laughing at all of this. You seem to ignore anything which you cant repudiate, but bang on about stuff that you consider to be a weak target. If you had even bothered to read any of what I have posted, you would know that

1. I am extremely frustrated with the lack of infrastructure by our Governments, and
2. I would be very happy to drink recycled water, and
3. I agree that farming practice has to change

I also think your razor blade picture is in extremely poor taste.

 

[chops_a_must]

Our personal consumption is down 40% from last year. We havent watered our front garden, many of the plants have died, even agapanthus which are meant to be indestructible. We use grey water. Water saving shower heads. etc

It takes 100 litres of water to produce 1 BOTTLE of Beer, a kilo of rice takes 2500 litres of water, and it takes around 3 litres of water to produce 1 litre of coke. SO of course prices will rise if they pay for the true cost of the water!

Quite obviously you dont like South Australia and take every opportunity to subtley or otherwise denigrate it. Probably laughing at all of this. You seem to ignore anything which you cant repudiate, but bang on about stuff that you consider to be a weak target. If you had even bothered to read any of what I have posted, you would know that

1. I am extremely frustrated with the lack of infrastructure by our Governments, and
2. I would be very happy to drink recycled water, and
3. I agree that farming practice has to change

I also think your razor blade picture is in extremely poor taste.

I don't think we've watered any garden we've had since about 95 or thereabouts... Never had a need for grey water because we haven't needed to water any of our gardens (too much growth with natives is our problem).

I'm saying that the cost for the most ordinary goods, especially SA dairy will just be massive. I don't think SA will be able to absorb the true cost of water.

I'm not laughing at the environmental situation, because first and foremost that's what I'm interested in. But SA is without a doubt the most emo state, funny given the colours associated with the state are red and black or navy blue. And that's what my jibing is in relation to.

Without a doubt, SA does the most complaining without doing anything about the situation.

I'm not going to continue to comment on things I don't know enough about. The lakes for example, I don't have a suggestion because I don't know how they work. However, superficially, having dairy farms draw from them is not only completely stupid, it is an automatic no no. Yet it's something you are implicitly stating should be kept going.

SA people have to be smarter than that if they want some credibility in the argument...

Yes I know you have been banging on about the SA government, but it's tiresome when all I'm hearing is the lake farmers are purer than driven snow, and most SA farmers for that matter, and all the blame goes to farmers up the stream. And it's simply not the case. Until things are cleaned up in your own state, and I don't think you have been critical enough of SA farmers apart from water pricing, you can hardly ask farmers from other states to clean up either.

Like I keep saying, until SA gets serious about its farmers, it has absolutely zero leverage in the debate. And that's going to take consumer pressure from ordinary people like yourself to bring about that change.

Because at the moment, everyone is hoping the status quo can go on. It has been implied by yourself in terms of the lake farmers. And that's simply not going to be acceptable... not least because the lower levels of the murray are clearly beginning to salt up... which will only work backwards up the river...

Cheers.

 

[robert toms]

The Murray as I see it...the current situation is from lack of inflows or drought,combined with over allocation of water.
The current allocations are geared to bumper water inflow years.
SA takes about a sixth of the water out of the Murray-Darling as Victoria and roughly a tenth that of NSW.
SA stopped giving out new water licences in the early nineteen seventies,no other state did this...they kept giving out new licences until the last few years.
With the water over allocated ,the environmental flows are virtually non-existent at the moment.The environment always comes a distant last.
The lower lakes in SA only get water at the end of the river system..at the moment flows down the Murray have ceased.
The number of dairy farmers that take water out of the Murray in SA are very few in comparison to Victoria.
What the water wars are always over is that people upstream are grabbing more than their share.
One area in NSW exceeded their cap (overall allocation) last year by more than Adelaide uses from the Murray in a year.(I read that last week but could not trace down the article again)
I have lived in the three states mentioned ,in irrigation areas,and we had better have water police to regulate and enforce water allocations and use.
What a mess.. and no effective national plan to solve the problem.
Pray for a few good years of rain in the catchment areas !

 

[Smurf1976]

There is nowhere in Australia apart from parts of Victoria that can have sustainable dairy with conventional practice.

Tasmania also has quite a few cows. To my understanding they aren't causing any problems.

That said, it would be environmentally destructive to be sending milk from Tas or Vic to SA, WA etc. Powdered form with local rehydration might stack up better.

 

[Smurf1976]

By the way, I think we are in for a very wet winter. The ocean was incredibly warm, like a spa, over the weekend, and we've had NW winds for a week straight. A lot of rain, and the ground is quite moist, which means a lot of the moist air will get over to the east I think.

Not sure about wet but quite a few seem to be expecting a cold one again this year. Not sure how scientifically valid those predictions are though.

 

[The Once-ler]

There is nowhere in Australia apart from parts of Victoria that can have sustainable dairy with conventional practice.

Cheers.

Yeah, that is a load of crap.

You need to get out more chops. There are millions of acres along the East coast of Australia with a summer dominant metre plus rainfall that is perfect for dairying. Southern parts or WA with a dry summer, they depend on irrigation to get through the summer. Not so further north. Wake up mate.

And that razor blade picture was an absolute disgrace.

 

[2020hindsight]

Without a doubt, SA does the most complaining without doing anything about the situation.

, and all the blame goes to farmers up the stream. .

Dare you to say that in a pub in Murraybridge (or further south) chops

It's pretty easy (I'd have thought) - the blokes who are struggling at the end of the line are gonna ask that the water is shared a bit more equally yes?

(and that goes for the health of the river as well

 

[Smurf1976]

Just give SA an entitlement to x% of the Murray's TOTAL inflows and let them decide what to do with it.

Whole thing looks like bullying to me. Cut the water off, mess up SA industry and then say SA is a basket case dependent on the other states.

Yes there are problems with the way it's used in SA. But irrigating in Qld has the same effect on water flowing out of the Murray's mouth as irrigating in SA. BOTH are at fault.