Worst drought ever

[Sean K]

Piping water from the north would not only benefit SA.

Yep, national issue. ie, good for Victoria!

 

[chops_a_must]

If you took a straight line from darwin to Adelaide, and had offshoots off that line it would open up a huge amount of the interior (desert) to agriculture.

Just fantastic.

Why not recreate the problems we have at the moment, in a different location?

Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that?

 

[noirua]

Adelaide is about to get a $2.5 billion desalination plant or is it 2011 or later. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/09/11/2030287.htm

 

[prawn_86]

Just fantastic.

Why not recreate the problems we have at the moment, in a different location?

Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that?

I dont see how it would re-create these problems Chops.

Australia as a whole had much higher than average rainfall in 2007. Problem was, that the majority of it fell in the top quater, in the tropical areas.

When they are getting metres of rain year in year out, i dont see how it will create the same scenario.

Admittedly actual amounts of runoff etc etc would need to be calculated and how much would be sustainable to pipe down, but water is plentiful up there, hence why it is the tropics.

Plus you wouldnt need any pumps cause it could just flow straight down with gravity. Look at a map... lol

 

[chops_a_must]

I dont see how it would re-create these problems Chops.

Because farmers would be pulling from the same source that ordinary citizens are and need.

It is EXACTLY the same problem as what we have now. And of course they should get compo when we have to restrict water take to make sure residents can have a drink.

We have plenty of water in the north, yes. Farmers should move there. We can't even get a critical mass of farmers on the Ord river scheme. It would cost less to move farmers there... the choice is theirs... and they don't want to make a decision...

But geez... it's like arguing with a typical country bumpkin.

 

[derty]

If you took a straight line from darwin to Adelaide, and had offshoots off that line it would open up a huge amount of the interior (desert) to agriculture.

Much of Australia has saline ground waters and/or crystalline salt trapped in the weathered profile above the water table.

There are two ways you can get this salt to the surface:
1. clear the land and remove the deep rooted salt tolerant trees that keep the water table away from the roots of the shallow rooted non-salt tolerant vegetation.
2. Irrigate, adding to the water table and bringing that salty water up to the root zone.

Much of the salinity issues in the Murray Darling Basin are a direct result of irrigation. Once the salt gets to the surface you are looking at 100's to 1000's of years before it is viable again.

 

[Sean K]

Much of the salinity issues in the Murray Darling Basin are a direct result of irrigation. Once the salt gets to the surface you are looking at 100's to 1000's of years before it is viable again.

Hooly dooly!!

 

[Smurf1976]

From an outsider's perspective with Tasmania, the problem seems to be there is no designated areas (that I know of) for industrial development. And the demographic is such that you have full blooded conservationists and pro development types living side by side. If there was a larger macro plan, people would be able to look well into the future, and choose where to live on the basis of their priorities. And that would stop a lot of the divisions that whip up so much emotional hysteria about matters Tasmanian, outside of Tasmania.

Cheers.

The location of the proposed pulp mill is at Bell Bay (about 50km north of Launceston).

Say the words "Bell Bay" and most Tasmanians immediately think of the power station (gas fired, was oil-fired until 2003). That plant is very well known to practically everyone in the state and is known as simply "Bell Bay". The power station commenced operation in 1971 and was expanded in 2006 with another expansion under construction at the moment.

Some will instead think of the aluminium smelter located there. It too is often referred to simply as "Bell Bay". It's been there since 1955, the first such smelter built in Australia. It now has 3 operating potlines, the last of which was installed in 1981. Subsequent expansion being scrapped due to lack of power.

Also at Bell Bay is the TEMCO plant. This is a ferro alloy smelter with 4 furnaces. The only plant of its type in Australia to my knowledge and it exports to 70 or so countries as well as supplying the entire Australian steel industry with those alloys. It's been there since 1962 with the last expansion during the 1980's, the 5th furnace never being built due to lack of economic power with which to run it.

Until recently there was a wood fibreboard plant there too. It closed a couple of years ago due to financial problems relating to a number of fires and technical problems.

And if you've got an old Mazda sports car that came with alloy wheels then they probably came from Bell Bay. Likewise Southern Aluminium used to supply a number of other major manufacturers prior to its closure.

And then there's the fact that all gas coming into Tas arrives at Bell Bay. Likewise it's where the Vic - Tas power cable connects at the Tasmanian end. Drive there from Launceston and you'll know you're there when a few transmission lines turns into a whole lot of lines, switchyards etc right beside the road.

All oil products used in the north of the state arrive via Bell Bay. It's also one of the two major ports in Tas.

Also there is a woodchip mill (next to the pulp mill site).

And the zoning? Well it's "Major Impact Heavy Industrial". There are no houses there and no shops of any kind. Nothing but heavy industry.

The trouble is, that the area on the opposite side of the river seems to have attracted rather a lot of ex-city people looking for a quiet retreat. And so they complain about noise from the power station, complain about any fumes etc that come from the aluminium or ferro alloy plants. And they're leading the fight againt the pulp mill.

That's the attitude that I'm not happy with. Come to Tas and then expect the locals to shut everything down etc just so that you can have what you want - a nice quiet environment. A certain Australian celebrity is a classic case in point - made money outside the state, comes down here then expects to put locals out of work so she can have some peace and quiet.

Nothing wrong with people coming to Tas to live of course. But why not live in any of the 99% of the state that's nice and quiet? Why decide that you have to live opposite heavy industry in the north or amidst nightclubs in Hobart then expect everything to shut down because it's too noisy etc? That, to me, is nothing more than using an entire state and its people as a playground for others who happen to have money.

The big trouble is that this has been going on for rather a long time now. Hence many left the state in search of work, only to be replaced with new arrivals sympathetic to the "shut everything down" mentality. Tasmania has become a magnet for such people. Hence opposition to industry comes from within as well as from outside the state.

The whole thing would be like me moving to Sydney and then complaining that it's too noisy, too much traffic etc and trying to shut everything down. I know and accept that large cities have those characteristics and I wouldn't be complaining if I chose to live in one. So why complain about industry when you decide to live right next to an area zoned "major impact heavy industrial"?

As for the environment movement, I suspect that most Australians aware of the mill issue think that Bell Bay is some sort of natural wilderness due to the claims they make. That's outright rubbish but I suspect that is what most think it is.

 

[Aussiejeff]

Of course, there is a blindingly obvious (but politically incorrect) solution to MANY of our looming problems.....

Reduce immigration by 90% (currently somewhere around 150,000 per year). Since our natural birth rate is actually negative, the ongoing pressure on housing, water and ALL other resources will slowly come down. Housing prices would stabilise and eventually start to fall.

Oh wait ... that is exactly the same (politically incorrect?) policy the US has followed for years, by making it nigh on impossible to get a permanent residency in the US!

For comparison sake, in 2006, the number of immigrants to the US was a paltry 700,000 persons, representing a mere .23% of a total population in 2006 of some 300,000,000!!!

In Australia meanwhile, we have 150,000 odd immigrants, representing a relatively whopping .71% of a total population in 2008 (today) estimated at about 21,000,000.

Of course, those 150,000 extra every year need housing, water, food, petrol, EVERYTHING. So it is no surprise inflation is a nagging factor and demand for housing seems insatiable.



PS: Please don't throw brickbats at me. It was GWB's idea!!!!



AJ

 

[Prospector]

Adelaide is about to get a $2.5 billion desalination plant or is it 2011 or later. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/09/11/2030287.htm

ha! that is what we thought too! Then that stupid water minister announced that before the real desal plant was built, we have to build a play one, just to see (because, for goodness sakes, there are only a few thousand around the world that they have jetted off to) how they work. And this play one is going to be finished by July 2008. Except the tenders for this were only announced last week! So no way Jose for even the play one to be done by the end of the year, which makes 2011 the never never.

Maybe you can get a little understanding of why people in Adelaide/SA would drown the government if we only had a little water to do it in!

I will be down at the mouth at Easter time and will post some pictures. Have just collected hubby from the airport and he has just flown over the lower murray. 'Beaches' everywhere, except they are usually water.

 

[Sean K]

ha! that is what we thought too!

I'm sensing a little sarcasm P. LOL

Prospector and Julia for PMs!!

Would do better than that Crow groupie!

PS, sorry to lower you.... eeek!

 

[Julia]

ha! that is what we thought too! Then that stupid water minister announced that before the real desal plant was built, we have to build a play one, just to see (because, for goodness sakes, there are only a few thousand around the world that they have jetted off to) how they work. And this play one is going to be finished by July 2008. Except the tenders for this were only announced last week! So no way Jose for even the play one to be done by the end of the year, which makes 2011 the never never.

Maybe you can get a little understanding of why people in Adelaide/SA would drown the government if we only had a little water to do it in!

I will be down at the mouth at Easter time and will post some pictures. Have just collected hubby from the airport and he has just flown over the lower murray. 'Beaches' everywhere, except they are usually water.

This is simply farcical. Presumably your Opposition is also inept?
Has the recycling of water been considered as is going ahead for Brisbane?
Your situation sounds unbelievably dire. So sad about the trees.

 

[ormond]

Dont know if this has been covered before but salisbury council in Adelaide's northern suburbs has been a trailblazer in the use of stormwater.
Was once told that if Adelaide can recycle all stormwater it can supply all Adelaide's needs.

Sub-surface aquifers break new ground
Solute distribution at two stages of flushing mode (125 and 365 days) and operational mode (1,095 and 3,650 days).
Salisbury Council’s wetlands project is blazing a trail in stormwater storage and recovery that will ensure a five-year supply.

The main advocate of the Aquifer Storage Transfer and Recovery (ASTR) demonstration project in Adelaide’s northern suburb of Salisbury believes that it has the potential to harvest 60 per cent of the city’s stormwater, treat it to drinking water standard and distribute it cheaply and effectively.

Colin Pitman is Salisbury Council’s director of city projects and extols the virtues of storing the water in sub-surface aquifers.

“The cost of production is around 90 cents a kilolitre, compared with drinking water sold on the market for $1.20,” he says. “The great outcome is you can conceivably connect it into existing water mains.”

It’s also set up to provide a five-year supply, an important buffer in these times of variable rainfall and drought.

The five-year, $4 million project is in its third year and is located adjacent to the Parafield Stormwater Harvesting Scheme. It involves injecting stormwater harvested via an engineered wetland into a brackish aquifer, with the aim of recovering the water at a potable standard.

South Australia is at the cutting edge of aquifer storage and recovery. Salisbury alone has more than 30 wetlands totalling approximately 250 hectares and costing in excess of $16 million. All new residential sub-divisions during the past 10 years have been required to install wetlands to contain stormwater on-site as far as possible.

But what makes the Parafield project so interesting is the addition of ‘transfer’. The scheme uses separate injection and recovery wells to extend residence time and enhance passive treatment within the aquifer. This enables more predictable levels of chemical and microbiological contaminant attenuation.

The US uses similar processes on highly treated effluents, but employing the technique with stormwater as the source is a world first.

 

[robert toms]

There are two ways of having more water....saving more or getting more.
The future of Murray river supplies is uncertain and this has a severe adverse effect on the lower lakes.
If there is not more rain in the catchment areas the Lower Murray plight could well be permanent.
Interstate there are a lot that believe that the lower lakes should not be there..wasteful evaporation ponds...and they are not natural anyway.
The counter argument to that is of course,neither are the extensive irrigation schemes in Vic and NSW ,Riverina,Colleambally ,Boort etc.
I believe that the Colleambally scheme,started in the sixties,takes out as much water as is used in the whole of SA (from the Murray)
I was born in Mannum ...the lagoon or swamp where we used to operate as boys is dry for the first time since the lock schemes were introduced about seventy years ago.I do not know the exact measurements but there has been at least a 2 metre drop in river levels there.
A weir at Wellington may well be on the cards and the lower lakes may never recover.
If rainfall patterns have changed it is not looking good for the lower lakes.

 

[Prospector]

A weir at Wellington may well be on the cards and the lower lakes may never recover.
If rainfall patterns have changed it is not looking good for the lower lakes.

We thought so too, RT, but if that is the case, why then did our Water Minister get millions of dollars last week to enable them to pump water into Lake Albert from Lake Alexandrina? If there is going to be a weir, that is a disgraceful waste of money because once the weir would be built, Lakes Albert and Alexandrina would be cactus, literally! The weir could only work if they then got rid of the Goolwa barrage and opened up the Lakes to the sea. That though, would kill off the dairy industry that supplies Adelaide's milk, and also the wine industry - I dont care about the latter but they do seem to have some voice in the Govt.

The water level in the lakes is metres below sea level now; which is why the barrage has to remain shut. If they opened the barrage, someone told me that the sea water would go back up the Murray many, many kilometres! That would be an environmental disaster.

As I see it, the only way to save anything is to reduce immediately all water usage along the breadth of the Murray to create some flows. Some of these areas have been designated under the RAMSAR scheme (International Wetlands Environment Protection Body - www.ramsar.org)

321 Australia The Coorong, Lake Alexandrina & Lake Albert 1-Nov-85

RAMSAR places this area as ranking 321 in the World in terms of Important Wetlands. But hey, who cares!

Many parts are now stinking mud heaps devoid of life. There is concern they will turn acidic as they dry out. It already is an environmental disaster. Forget the whales!

 

[Struzball]

There are two ways of having more water....saving more or getting more.

... and using less. I don't think rice farms etc on the lower Murray are all that important in the scheme of things.

 

[Prospector]

... and using less. I don't think rice farms etc on the lower Murray are all that important in the scheme of things.

Um, rice farms are not on the Lower Murray! There is little water on the Lower Murray partly as a result of the rice farms in the UPPER Murray!

 

[robert toms]

I think in the big picture dairy farms on the lower lakes will be deemed expendable...hope not though.
When I was living in Riverina,at that time ten years ago,Tim Fischer on behalf of the National party was running around with the "Zap the CaP" campaign in relation to water.
Penny Wong is trying to buy back water allocations,but with reducing inflows this may well be mission impossible, in trying to get environmental flows in SA.
If my info is correct,not one rice grower has taken the govt. package to leave the land.
Because,as I see it,when some water does start to come down the Murray and Murrumbidgee, one good year growing rice will make up for two years of drought ,at least.I am sure that we can get rice cheaper from Thailand.
Most rice growers got their licences for nix and the price that they pay for their water allocations is very,very small.
One water economist suggested that water should be subject to market rates...perhaps so...then heavy users of water like cotton and rice growers would be priced out of the market...horticulture would survive.
But I cannot see any government making hard decisions.Until then hope for increased inflows.

 

[Smurf1976]

It's official. Lake Gordon (Tas) has hit the big 40. Not 40% unfortunately and not even a 40m walk from the edge to the water - it's a lot further than that now.

No, it's literaly a 40m straight vertical drop from the top water level to the actual water level. And it's still falling. As a percentage it's 13.6% full at the moment and is at its second lowest level since operation commenced (that record low level being only 3m lower).

The system total is about 19% and falling roughly 0.1% per day.

 

[noirua]

It's official. Lake Gordon (Tas) has hit the big 40. Not 40% unfortunately and not even a 40m walk from the edge to the water - it's a lot further than that now.

No, it's literaly a 40m straight vertical drop from the top water level to the actual water level. And it's still falling. As a percentage it's 13.6% full at the moment and is at its second lowest level since operation commenced (that record low level being only 3m lower).

The system total is about 19% and falling roughly 0.1% per day.

There was a lake that dried up in Europe during the Great Heatwave in 1976, average temperatures in London, England, were higher than the Nevada Desert.
They took the opportunity to explore a village that had made way for the Lake 200 years before. They also strengthened the bed of the Lake so as to reduce seepage and redesigned and rebuilt piping from the Lake.
Will Tasmania take this opportunity?