Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

[great dame]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Great Dame

Please do us all a favor and take your negativity else where. Things you haven't considered of digested from this forum
1. JH is going to provide us a more transparent breakdown of the funds loans and investments. From this we will get a better feel for it's state and potential to recover.
2. The fund will over time recover in part from realising true capital value (property prices are deflated at the moment). I would rather wait 3-5 years to realise $11 mill than take $1 mill through liquidation at the moment.
3. a 3 cent (most likely tax free) distribution by December is probably worth 4.25 cents before tax (8.5%)
4. Once RBOS is out of the picture (predicted end of August) the fund will in fact be making money. Lets say the fund is worth $430,000,000 and is conservatively returning 8% that equates to $34,400,000. (if JH takes 2.89 mill there is a little bit of change).
5. If we bail on the fund what is the likely recovery of the 147.5 Million and 50 Million owed by OCV - NOT VERY HIGH!!!!!. JH has already moved to make us an equal creditor of 5. She has predicted OCV is probably worth 400 mill in cash and assets. I for one would rather back JH and get 80 mill (1/5th of 400 mill) than $0.

I am big believer in the fat we can all have an opinion, but lets work with facts and stop going around in circles posting the same old negativity.

Yes things aren't ideal, but we are all in the same boat and the only way we can move forward is to back JH. She might not get to $1 in 5 years but I am backing she will go close - POSITIVITY!!!!!!!!!

You intitled to your view But you are dead WRONG in everything you say above I hate to see people get conned& given fauce hope She will go down in history as the a the first person to bring back from almost death I wont hold my breath /

 

[goldfinger38]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I am seeing these latest comments on the forum and there is a lot of emotion and anger present with some of the comments, this forum is meant to be constructive and informative to those who have an interest in what is happening with our money and to those who may not have been able to attend andy of the meetings and hopefully to gain some clearer explanation of what is going on moving forward.

I dont see any value in making emotive statements that are negative at this time until we do actually see the information that we have asked for at the forums. Especially when ALL of the facts have yet to be put out to all of us to digest. JH stated that the audited account as signed off by Price Waterhouse Coopers would be made available to investors when they bacame available and they would back up the valuations provided under the three scenarios. Remembering it wasnt JH that provided the valuations it was 333 Capital a part of Korda Mentha who are experts in solvency and liquidation of companies and were contracted by Octaviar and PIF to provide their assessment and valuations.

She has stated that after the final meeting this week they would be putting out as much information as possible with regard to the questions raised and answers provided. They have already put in links on their webiste for the PIF about the meeting held in Melbourne so those who didnt attend could here the presentation.

In any case she hasnt even been given the vote of approval by us as investors yet to be able to do anything with the fund. if she doesnt get the 75% for vote she wont be doing anything for us and the liquidation of the fund will proceed.

Re LEGAL proceedings or Action

She has already mentioned that she has engaged the services of a legal silk with regard to the claim against Octaviar for the $147.5 million on top of the $50, million that they are already asking for from Octaviar in order to increase the level of claim that may be payable to creditors when/if Octaviar are forced into Administration by the other creditors. So she is demonstrating she is trying to maximise our potential to recover as much as possible as a creditor to Octaviar as 20c - 40c in the $ from the spoils is better on $197.5 million than $50 million only.

In any case again she wont be able to do too much until she get our vote to continue with the fund and its ongoing operation. If along the way in the running of the fund investors find that she may not be the right person together with WC to run our fund, investors have the ability to call an EGM to appoint a new RE. So we still have the ability to control our destiny.

We want the best possible outcome for us as investors and yes there are those with differing agendas, but if the majority are for a positive outcome then I can see no reason to doubt her current assertions with the continued running of the fund. Lets at least give her a chance to provide the information so we can make an "informed decision".

 

[Rocky1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

You intitled to your view But you are dead WRONG in everything you say above I hate to see people get conned& given fauce hope She will go down in history as the a the first person to bring back from almost death I wont hold my breath /

Great Dame

I appreciate what Jadel said about your position, but most people are in a similar situation, some worse than others and I feel for these people greatly

But please read my post again I am not DEAD WRONG on anything, you obviously didn't read it properly

 

[Janiss]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

MFS is really in dire straits and it is very unlikely that we will see a cent of the $147.5 Million plus $50 million.
At the moment there are over $1 billion worth of claims against MFS, the most significant being:
1. $50 Million shareholder Action by IMF
2. $349 Million Public Trustee of Queensland - court hearing on 9/10 September
3. $100 million in bonds - Challenger - hearing 21 July

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Thanks for a balanced post Goldfinger38.Can anyone tell me if the the IMF shareholder action is successful, do they rank as equal creditors? Thanks, Seamisty

 

[Janiss]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Octaviar is really in dire straits and it seems very unlikely that we will see a cent of the $147.5 Million plus $50 million.

According to IMF (Australia) Ltd, Legal firm, at the moment there are over
$1 billion worth of claims against Octaviar/MFS, the most significant being:

1. $50 Million shareholder Action by IMF
2. $349 Million Public Trustee of Queensland - court hearing on 9/10 September
3. $100 million in bonds - Challenger - hearing 21 July
4. $270 Million - OPI Pacific Finance - damages claim
5. $197.5 Million - PIF - September hearing for 147.5
6. $60 million - ATO (tax + interest)
7. $40 Million NAB - loan LLA

As at 30 Dec 2007 MFS balance sheet showed $3.8 Billion of assets and $2.6 billion liabilities. On April 28 $1 billion of assets were written off leaving expected net assets of $240 million!! There are also more damages claims expected.

 

[deano1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

yes all getting very emotive as everything comes to a head - i'll come back to the points i have raised here before - before anyone can make an informed decision - WC have to come out and explain exactly what the assets are that are supporting the loans - they dont have to break and commercial confidentialities to do this - like i think Rocky1 has said loan A is supported by an asset in X state ie QLD / Gold coast - the loan value is X and we value that asset at Y - the liquidators value that asset as Z - we think we can achieve Valuation Y over X number of months years ( dont forget the result she has achieved in the liquidation of the 32 apartments last week - that should give people confidence on her valuation models) - 2 liquidation is not necessarily the worst case scenario - Korda Mentha is still liquidating the Ansett debacle and when it all washes up most of the employees will end up getting most of their cash back - ( yeah inflation has made their $1 less than what it is but they still look like getting their money out) a liquidation / or administration doesn't have to be cut and run - it can be an orderly process - i'm not decided on my mums and brothers behalf which way they should go yet as i really want to see what is in this fund before decisions get made - but what i really do want to see is the thieves who have stolen the money - if they have 1c buried somewhere - i want that recovered - the directors of MFS are personally liable for the criminal activity if they knowingly permitted it to occur and from what i have heard, read - seen - they knew - they are guilty - and they need to be persued - i think you will find they have money buried everywhere and the longer they have to shift this away from recovery - the harder and more expensive it becomes to recover it. persue whats nearest and dearest to these thieves - their wallet and listen to the scream - i'd like to hear some fighting words from WC on this front - I'd be anti listing on any exchange if you can keep the process in house your not opening yourself to any sort of market manipulation - remember someone offering 20c is probably going to get hit on the bid at the moment - and if the fund is worth say 45c now they are in front and do not share the same objectives as the current unit holders - although i do recognise the need for some sort of facility to allow those desperatly in need of some cash to get access to it.
My final comment yes WC are in it to make money for themselves - i hope they make a fortune as they will make a silk purse out of a sows ear - and the unit holders will ultimately benefit - but if they can't turn it around its going to be your money going to pay them for something that could have been done via administration.

Until you see the loan book, assets and a valuation comparison all this is just venting over a bllody disgraceful set of circumstances - once you get the details then you can make an informed decision - and JH, WC or anyone else cannot suggest / infer whats best for you - you need to make the decision based on having access to all the facts you need to make that decision.

Hope i havent stirred up any hornets nest - as i have said before i have 30 years experience in Investment banking have been a director of over 40 public companies and whats happened here is the worst example of governance i have ever seen from people claiming to be professionals in my life time.

Regards

 

[Rocky1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Octaviar is really in dire straits and it seems very unlikely that we will see a cent of the $147.5 Million plus $50 million.

According to IMF (Australia) Ltd, Legal firm, at the moment there are over
$1 billion worth of claims against Octaviar/MFS, the most significant being:

1. $50 Million shareholder Action by IMF
2. $349 Million Public Trustee of Queensland - court hearing on 9/10 September
3. $100 million in bonds - Challenger - hearing 21 July
4. $270 Million - OPI Pacific Finance - damages claim
5. $197.5 Million - PIF - September hearing for 147.5
6. $60 million - ATO (tax + interest)
7. $40 Million NAB - loan LLA

As at 30 Dec 2007 MFS balance sheet showed $3.8 Billion of assets and $2.6 billion liabilities. On April 28 $1 billion of assets were written off leaving expected net assets of $240 million!! There are also more damages claims expected.

I thought I heard JH say at the melbourne forum that we (PIF) were one of five creditors inline for an equal share of any OCV windup, liquidation (or she was in the process of trying to make us 1 of 5).

OCV also has 170 Mill in cash in the bank and therefore have 400 mill in total assets and cash. IF we are 1 in 5 doesn't this equate to 80 mill

 

[SPLITPIN]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

yes all getting very emotive as everything comes to a head -

Hope i havent stirred up any hornets nest - as i have said before i have 30 years experience in Investment banking have been a director of over 40 public companies and whats happened here is the worst example of governance i have ever seen from people claiming to be professionals in my life time.

Regards

Deano1

It appears we all need a good strong fully represented action group to carry all these forum messages direct to WC / ASIC warts and all.

From what I am hearing and reading, the AG's are well underway awaiting for the final meetings today and tomorrow.

About poking a stick into the hornets nest, try stamping on a bull ants nest without getting bitten.

There are a lot more prickly questions to be answered yet.

All will be revealed at some point of time.

Splipin

 

[deano1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Deano1

It appears we all need a good strong fully represented action group to carry all these forum messages direct to WC / ASIC warts and all.

From what I am hearing and reading, the AG's are well underway awaiting for the final meetings today and tomorrow.

About poking a stick into the hornets nest, try stamping on a bull ants nest without getting bitten.

There are a lot more prickly questions to be answered yet.

All will be revealed at some point of time.

Splipin

i like the analogy - but someones got to start stirring up the bullants - it all starts with the first domino - $350 mill just doesnt vanish into thin air - there has to be something hidden somewhere by these clowns - i hope the AG group and i say this with all the best intentions - make an absoulute pain in the A@#$ of them selves so the message gets reinforced and reinforced again - the directors for a start should be facing a banning action from ASIC right now

 

[flatback]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

So what's your solution?

Duped i dont believe this guy has an answer for anything in life henceforth i have dubbed him Mr Magoo, i really would not like to be in need of life threatening help with this person around ,even he or she if they were to take the time to look at their contributions to this forum must see how negative they appear to most others who contribute, i actually am not very happy with myself for responding like this,because idiots like this should not be given a moment of anybodys time.(i have resolved not to respond any more until they stop children from logging threads on this forum)i shall correspond through Breaker1 via E/mail keep up the good work those in the positive cheers Flatback

 

[Duped]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

... before anyone can make an informed decision - WC have to come out and explain exactly what the assets are that are supporting the loans - they dont have to break and commercial confidentialities to do this ...

As you can see from my previous posts - I don't think this is the case. But I'll be absolutely thrilled to be wrong.

 

[selciper]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Deano1 - I keep thinking of Christopher Skase's escape. History could repeat itself.

 

[flatback]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

yes all getting very emotive as everything comes to a head - i'll come back to the points i have raised here before - before anyone can make an informed decision - WC have to come out and explain exactly what the assets are that are supporting the loans - they dont have to break and commercial confidentialities to do this - like i think Rocky1 has said loan A is supported by an asset in X state ie QLD / Gold coast - the loan value is X and we value that asset at Y - the liquidators value that asset as Z - we think we can achieve Valuation Y over X number of months years ( dont forget the result she has achieved in the liquidation of the 32 apartments last week - that should give people confidence on her valuation models) - 2 liquidation is not necessarily the worst case scenario - Korda Mentha is still liquidating the Ansett debacle and when it all washes up most of the employees will end up getting most of their cash back - ( yeah inflation has made their $1 less than what it is but they still look like getting their money out) a liquidation / or administration doesn't have to be cut and run - it can be an orderly process - i'm not decided on my mums and brothers behalf which way they should go yet as i really want to see what is in this fund before decisions get made - but what i really do want to see is the thieves who have stolen the money - if they have 1c buried somewhere - i want that recovered - the directors of MFS are personally liable for the criminal activity if they knowingly permitted it to occur and from what i have heard, read - seen - they knew - they are guilty - and they need to be persued - i think you will find they have money buried everywhere and the longer they have to shift this away from recovery - the harder and more expensive it becomes to recover it. persue whats nearest and dearest to these thieves - their wallet and listen to the scream - i'd like to hear some fighting words from WC on this front - I'd be anti listing on any exchange if you can keep the process in house your not opening yourself to any sort of market manipulation - remember someone offering 20c is probably going to get hit on the bid at the moment - and if the fund is worth say 45c now they are in front and do not share the same objectives as the current unit holders - although i do recognise the need for some sort of facility to allow those desperatly in need of some cash to get access to it.
My final comment yes WC are in it to make money for themselves - i hope they make a fortune as they will make a silk purse out of a sows ear - and the unit holders will ultimately benefit - but if they can't turn it around its going to be your money going to pay them for something that could have been done via administration.

Until you see the loan book, assets and a valuation comparison all this is just venting over a bllody disgraceful set of circumstances - once you get the details then you can make an informed decision - and JH, WC or anyone else cannot suggest / infer whats best for you - you need to make the decision based on having access to all the facts you need to make that decision.

Hope i havent stirred up any hornets nest - as i have said before i have 30 years experience in Investment banking have been a director of over 40 public companies and whats happened here is the worst example of governance i have ever seen from people claiming to be professionals in my life time.

Regards

Deano 1 the most sensible post for some weeks now without the above we may as well pack the bags and go home, i believe the above will be address'd in the next week or two and all of our questions will be answered whether they will be what we want? who knows , but we have to stop beating ourselves up,just a few more weeks then we will know which way to go,final post Flatback

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Update: Newcastle WC Forum at Panthers Club 14/07/08

* Jenny still wants to list on the NSX early September, if she gets the RE 75% vote. She said it would be only part of the August proposal coming. NSX only part of the solution - WC will endeavor to encourage PIF unit buyer interest

* NSX show of hands on my request to Jenny was about 95% against listing and 5% for listing - Jenny looked a bit taken aback by that. That thoroughly backs up Sydney hands show and proves Melbourne hands show was because of confusion. Jenny should pay careful attention to this vote outcome and consider her homework before August vote accordingly.

* 1.5 cents capital distribution October, then December and quarterly 1.5c capital distribution thereafter, with the possibility of some kind of special distribution payment before end of next financial year, if extra monies come in. These payments were called capital payments, but are a mix of new income and capital, but will be called all capital because of the losses in the fund. I didn't hear her mention it was tax free, but other forums did. (Breaker> I'm not really trying to sell this folks, but based on the 45c valuation that actually works out at a payment of 13% per year - too bad its mostly our own money)

* Someone asked - "what's if someone buys PIF units on the NSX, will they be able to get in on the 1.5c per quarter and even the special distribution. "good question said Jenny. Yes! They will and that will be part of the incentive for investors to buy on the NSX, we need something to encourage investors" That's why we really need to know the exact break up of this 6c p.a payment, because if you do, you will find out your % real interest p.a and tax free for a good while to boot.

* Related MFS LTS party investments in the fund ad up to a total of 20% of all assets in the PIF

* If PIF fund liquidated, Korda Mentha would probably be hired as they have already a good knowledge of the PIF

* 14c liquidation is based on the fund being liquidated between August 08 and 31 March 09

45c & 65c figures both an a recovery over 3-5 years

* PIF is " not as liquid as it might be and therefore needs a 3-5 year recovery timetable

* NSX has 66 entities listed on it

* MFS charged 2.3% Jenny charging 0.7% fees

* 14c price on liquidation must be an scare exaggeration, surely it's worth more than that - answer:" unfortunately a reality" and with the 14c you would have to deduct the costs of liquidation as well .

* 6 different parties had a go at RE (didn't mention the other 5 parties)

* Original Lloyds of London security deal ceased 5 years ago and it was replaced with the 50M support facility. (but apparently Lloyds still has some kind of policy in place, either partly re-instated or much revised )

* Assets that have been hurriedly liquidated already by WC PIF to pay back PIF debt, are at a net loss of assets (to previous value of assets) of $63 Million

* Mathew Walton QC WC litigation will cost $25,000 or thereabouts

* I proposed the following: One of the main concerns of the PIF Action Group is the question of the NSX listing ......We request that the NSX not be the only method of redemption in part or in full. That it be a separate option at best.

Answer: We hope to have a different model in 3-5 years

I asked the question: Jenny, have you thought of any other long term redemption vehicles besides the NSX?

Answer: Hope to have a better solution than just the NSX listing

I pointed out a redemption moratorium with 6c payment pa for 2-3 years and after that allowing redemptions for those who want it OR some kind of promissory note scheme (the longer you stay in the fund, the more you get back on redemption) OR a work out of profits and sale of assets if necessary (after fund stabilised) and then redemptions.

Answer: We have a bit of homework to do before August vote and will hopefully advise our answers.

From the above you can see that Jenny specialises in answering in part, but not really answering.

I gave her the example of sometime down the track, after 5 years of sacrifice and staying with the fund, that WC may have built the fund up to 80c and then we want to redeem via the NSX only to find the NSX is only offering 40c (then you have to deduct inflation @ 4x5%=20% + 2.5% NSX fee) - I said, so what's the good of that, whats the good of bragging about the 80c when in reality it is NOT 80c if you have to redeem via the NSX?

Answer: I appreciate your comments and understand that any stock exchange has volatility, it can go up or down, (and the NSX is only part of our plan or something to that effect)

* How has WC been performing apart from PIF - well!, 5.5% to 8.75% for a couple of funds (more for another fund)

* one investor complained of the "forced risk shift" placed on us by listing on the NSX - we never wanted to be in volatile investments

* Asked about going up from 45c to 65c via the recovery of the 197.5M from MFS. Jenny, for the first time, admitted that she did not think so was going to be able to get all of it back. That 65c appeared false advertising to one investor, by Jenny suggesting she might get it, but knew she couldn't.

* Another investor asked, what about DELISTING from the NSX when those needing desperate redemptions via the NSX are done about 12-18 mths from now.

Answer: WC will keep an eye on the fund. Being listed forever is NOT the idea.

* I asked, what main capitalisation vehicle are you going to use to bring the fund up from 55c/65c to your targeted $1?

Answer: "When all PIF debt is paid, we are going to be in a strong position to buy assets on the market at a discount and manage that asset to make a profit". Sounds like she was saying, when strong and respected, we then become a vulture fund? OR perhaps acquire assets that earn a regular income for profit.

* Investor question: If you get a bargain, will you put the best bargains in the PIF or your other WC funds?

Answer: Two funds including the PIF. To put bargains in whatever fund is the most suitable - the PIF has a basic mandate and we will put bargains that suit it in the PIF.

* I pointed out that Chris Scott owned 50% of WC, about 14 months ago, is that still the case?

Answer: Chris Scott sold out his share in WC, when he moved to Singapore, he no longer has an interest.

He was supposedly your mentor? Yes he was. I ring him regular re the Support Facility and how its going.

* Regarding an AG member on the board?

Answer: She didn't exactly say that she would accept an extra member on the board, but she did say, that if the AG organise a committee, that they could get access to board meetings. >That's different to being on the board I thought

* About 220-250 people turned up at Newcastle Panthers Club WC forum and it was a rather conservative audience, except for one or two One poor fellow claimed that he was "not into all this financials crap and just want to know where all my money is now." He had a car or bike accident some time ago and lost a limb or two, got a payout and put it all in PIF and said he desperately needed his $120,000 to buy new limb/s. Jenny was halted by that and had a quick thought and asked if she could talk with him during the break. On leaving myself, I saw he was in audience with Jenny and several other WC staff.

 

[Rance]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I'm a newcomer to this forum. Just testing to see whether I've registered properly.

Rance

 

[Rocky1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Thanks for the update breaker.

It seems JH said the same thing a number of ways regarding future exit vehicles - "not the only model they are looking at"

I truly hope she elaborates on this before August and strongly believe the AG should push her on this as soon as Forums are complete

Also RE: snapping up bargains, surely if she uses PIF money they must go to the PIF

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Thanks for the update breaker.

It seems JH said the same thing a number of ways regarding future exit vehicles - "not the only model they are looking at"

I truly hope she elaborates on this before August and strongly believe the AG should push her on this as soon as Forums are complete

Also RE: snapping up bargains, surely if she uses PIF money they must go to the PIF

Mate, I've got this awful feeling that another genuine redemption plan besides the NSX won't materialise.

I guess if she sees a bargain, she will decide what fund to put it in and then take the money out of the appropriate fund to pay for it, that she wants to favour.

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Mate, I've got this awful feeling that another genuine redemption plan besides the NSX won't materialise.

I guess if she sees a bargain, she will decide what fund to put it in and then take the money out of the appropriate fund to pay for it, that she wants to favour.

Don't lose sight of the fact that the Fund would have to have the appropriate 'Funds' available to take advantage of these opportunities as they arise. JH is going to be under enormous scrutiny from every direction, I don't think this will be an issue. Welcome to the forum Rance. Seamisty

 

[great dame]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Great Dame

Thank you for your numereous colourfull entries of your view of the world.

Are you a member of your local action group.

And if not / why not.

And if so, is your opinion generally the same as your local group.

Splitpin

No i am not a menber of the AG group Would you like me to be ? Look Splitpin any DH can get up on the stage and say they save us all guves us no detail what so ever how its going to be done untill i see it in detail in print how its going to be done its just cheap talk to win us over Sorry if i upset a few folk by being blunt But thats me /////////