Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

1. I am a Perth MFS investor. How many others are in WA, which missed out on the update meetings?




When I first asked Octaviar for the members register as any member is entitled to do by Corporations Law, Octaviar told me Perpetual Nominees, the trustee, wanted $14000. (The cost by law is supposed to be what it costs to download to a CD).



After further discussion and ASIC (Neale Paterson) intervention it came down to $200. Then Wellington took over so I didn’t pursue it.



There have been a number of strange goings on –



A loan from a Scottish bank for $180m which ranked ahead of us as members for repayment.


The $147.5 m in unsecured loans (ie. ca. 20% of the fund) to seven entities in November December according to the AFR. (see AFR 16april and 25 June).


A Lonsec (ratings agency) thumbs up for the fund sent to us in early November.


The disappearance from the Octaviar website of the PDS (even though Guy Hutchings sent me a hard copy on Feb 16, 2008).


Also the related party transactions (loans to other bodies within the MFS umbrella) were supposed to be on the website.


the NZ MFS Pacific fund went down late last year, and I believe our fund had some money in MFS Pacific.


There were supposed to be two committees with independent members- the Compliance Committee (ie. does the fund operate as stated) and the Related Party Transactions Committee (loans to other Octaviar entities). Perhaps someone knows who was on those.



Also how much did the auditor know as at 30 June 2007?



Maurice Blackburn, the law firm, is taking a class action for some Octaviar shareholders (not PIF fund members) against Octaviar Ltd, so they are looking for money we are also looking for.



For those who want to do a bit of research look at Pt.2G.4 of the Corporations Act, and also at S.252E(2)(b) – any member can get a court order for a meeting of the fund. If you want to look go to: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/



There’s S.197 re the trustee, S252C re official scheme meetings (S.252E(2)(b) gives any member the right to get a court order for an official meeting of the fund), S. 208 re approval for a related party benefit, S.283A (trustee for debentures which some of PIF activity was), S 209(3) re dishonesty, 601JG ( compliance committee and liability of its members, as well as possible professional indemnity insurance for them), S601JC(1)(c) ( compliance committee report to ASIC), 601 A re removing the responsible entity, 601HG (auditor), 601FD(1)(c), and Pt 9.4B which deals with prosecutions for breach of the Act.



Some people who might have some idea of what went on are Andrew Peacock, Phil Adams, Michael King, Marshall Vann, Stuart Donaldson, Craig White, Guy Hutchings, and Chris Gavras-Moffatt (corporate lawyer Business Legal for Octaviar Ltd.) Also David Anderson is Octaviar company secretary.



2. I approached Tony D’Aloisio head of ASIC on 1st April asking him to help to facilitate the formation of a small investors’ consultative group to work alongside the responsible entity while the PIF problems were resolved. If the fund had gone into administration, a Creditors Committee of Reference would be set up by members’ vote.



3. If there is about 41c in value in a PIF share by continuing, then if it goes on the NSX, there has to be a total ban on short selling. Market manipulation only becomes apparent when it is too late, after the event, and if there’s 41c to be had by forcing down the price and frightening PIF members into selling out, there’ll be some people trying.


4.

Looking at the late 2007 loans made by our MFS PIF, can anyone confirm that these are the companies they were made to?



SPV Pty Ltd registered as a company 17.12.07 ACN 128 946 494. Reg office Adelaide.

OR

SPV Co Pty Ltd ACN 127 289 098 registered 29.8.07 Reg office Pt Macquarie.



Ray Group ACN 057 883 511registered 26.10.92 Reg Office Robina Qld.



Investment Enterprises Pty Ltd ACN 070 041 413 reg’d 26.6.95 Reg office Sth Yarra



Southport Holdings Pty Ltd ACN 009 224 275 reg’d 18.3.87 Reg office West Perth



Young Village Estates ACN 124 564 772 reg’d 22.3.07 Reg office Southport.



Perhaps someone who has full access to ASIC co. info can find out who the directors are.



5.

Interestingly says the AFR, ABN Amro Morgans, UBS and Macquarie Research all gave MFS a thumbs-up for fund managers. Opis Capital also liked them.



6.

According to the AFR on April 16, $100m was lent by the PIF to MFS Living and Leisure, at 14% interest. The PIF put $17m into the water fund. However the PIF owes MFS Living and Leisure $67m.



7.

As at 30 June 2007, the PIF was, according to Property Investment Research, 31% mortgages (if only they’d stuck to what they knew), 22% in managed investment schemes, 21% in asset-backed investments, 13% in fixed interest, and 13% in cash, with about 11,000 investors.
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Interestingly I emailed the contact given by the AG at the Melbourne forum to enquire about joining. This was on Tuesday last but have received no reply.
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

MFSPERTH -

Interesting to read your well-compiled list. It's difficult to believe that ASIC aren't working on this already

Perhaps you could add a paragraph with your conclusions and solutions (if any).
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Dear Reasonable

Rest assured I have responded to everyone who has contacted me from the Melbourne Forum. The only person I received a non deliverable return email from was a person named Jon. If this was you I apologies so please try again, nothing interesting about this, merely an email/internet issue.

As i mentioned please email me again, with contact phone number if you wish and I will call you personally
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi
Can anyone tell me what the process will be for the august vote in regards to voting power.
Example: there seems to be a few fund managers in this acting for a number of clients. Have these investments by them been set up as individual accounts/investments for each investor or a large sum investment account by the fund manager/Firm? Would they have 1 vote or say 150 votes if that was the total number of investor's in the fund? To continue I am a reasonably large individual investor although I have 4 investments accounts with different maturities and interest rates. Does this mean that I have 4 votes or just 1. What would be the difference between this and a fund manager having one account but adding to his position each time an idividual investor wanted to invest.

On another point there have been a few statements made in regards to peoples agenda's. If there are fund managers,retiree's,individual large and small investors and investors still working there HAS to be a multiple of agendas out there. From people wanting to stay with the fund long term, who work and have the time on their side to go down this road to possibly terminally ill looking to cash out for obvious reasons, to investors that need cash to stave off creditors/mortgage payments/food/petrol etc. I have no problem with any of these agenda's as they are all important to each individual. My point is has there been any discussion in the AG or WC (if you're reading/listening to this forum) in setting up different classes of investors. I think the AG/WC needs to at least get some sort of show of hands now on certain positions if possible so that there is not a potential blind side come August with a few people showing up with a number of proxies and changing things without anyone knowing and believe me I've seen it happen. Remember there are some 10300 investors out there but what is the voting register going to total if there is one account but with 150 different investors in that account or 1 investor with a number of different accounts.
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi
Can anyone tell me what the process will be for the august vote in regards to voting power.
Example: there seems to be a few fund managers in this acting for a number of clients. Have these investments by them been set up as individual accounts/investments for each investor or a large sum investment account by the fund manager/Firm? Would they have 1 vote or say 150 votes if that was the total number of investor's in the fund? To continue I am a reasonably large individual investor although I have 4 investments accounts with different maturities and interest rates. Does this mean that I have 4 votes or just 1. What would be the difference between this and a fund manager having one account but adding to his position each time an idividual investor wanted to invest.

On another point there have been a few statements made in regards to peoples agenda's. If there are fund managers,retiree's,individual large and small investors and investors still working there HAS to be a multiple of agendas out there. From people wanting to stay with the fund long term, who work and have the time on their side to go down this road to possibly terminally ill looking to cash out for obvious reasons, to investors that need cash to stave off creditors/mortgage payments/food/petrol etc. I have no problem with any of these agenda's as they are all important to each individual. My point is has there been any discussion in the AG or WC (if you're reading/listening to this forum) in setting up different classes of investors. I think the AG/WC needs to at least get some sort of show of hands now on certain positions if possible so that there is not a potential blind side come August with a few people showing up with a number of proxies and changing things without anyone knowing and believe me I've seen it happen. Remember there are some 10300 investors out there but what is the voting register going to total if there is one account but with 150 different investors in that account or 1 investor with a number of different accounts.
The way it will be voted on i believe is if your total amount of units in the fund is say $100.000 that gives you a 100.000 votes so the so the bigger the invester you are the more votes you have The managers do not have a vote at all only there investers ////////
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The way it will be voted on i believe is if your total amount of units in the fund is say $100.000 that gives you a 100.000 votes so the so the bigger the invester you are the more votes you have The managers do not have a vote at all only there investers ////////

Thanks. Would be nice to confirm the process though. I did read an article quoting JH saying it would be a value vote requiring 75% which would support your quote. I think I will send an e-mail to WC to confirm the process.
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Thanks. Would be nice to confirm the process though. I did read an article quoting JH saying it would be a value vote requiring 75% which would support your quote. I think I will send an e-mail to WC to confirm the process.


Kogo, This question was asked at the Gold Coast Forum, and Jenny confirmed that it would be one vote per share.
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Kogo, This question was asked at the Gold Coast Forum, and Jenny confirmed that it would be one vote per share.

Yes John, that is correct. One vote per Unit, and Managers must contact all of their clients to receive and forward, their individual voting power on the choice they have decided.
But remember....only 75% of units who actually vote, is required to make a decision, hence if only 50% of us vote, it will only require 75% of that 50%, to confirm whatever the voting choice concerned is. ie: to go with JH, or to Liquidate. (God forbid !!)
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I had a look on that site & cant find that information JH never said anything at the Brisbane meeting about stapled shares with a 5 year distance Tell us all when she said this please Eric

Kogo, This question was asked at the Gold Coast Forum, and Jenny confirmed that it would be one vote per share.

Thanks. Would be nice to confirm the process though. I did read an article quoting JH saying it would be a value vote requiring 75% which would support your quote. I think I will send an e-mail to WC to confirm the process.

I would rather have the vote delayed till we know if JH can get back our $147,5 Mill as that would give us a better understanding what the fud is realy worth for those who want to vote to bail out remenber the old saying a bird in the hand is better then maybe 3 or 4 in the bush
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I dont believe any sane invester will buy our shares or units on the NXS or ASX for that mater when the fund is not producing income at all and the asset base is just going down with the 3 cents handouts & the fees WC will be getting All sane share buyers always look to forcasts growth & income growth in companys before they buy there is none of that in PIC at all JH will not give us any future forcasts She cant WE have to believe in her in BLIND FAITH Have a happy day Cheers GD /
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Yes John, that is correct. One vote per Unit, and Managers must contact all of their clients to receive and forward, their individual voting power on the choice they have decided.
But remember....only 75% of units who actually vote, is required to make a decision, hence if only 50% of us vote, it will only require 75% of that 50%, to confirm whatever the voting choice concerned is. ie: to go with JH, or to Liquidate. (God forbid !!)

JH needs 3 out every 4 votes to swing it & get over the line pretty tall order i would think I just wonder what her odds are I might start a book on this Might help me make a few bucks i have lost in this mess ////////
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

None of you get it do you Wellington is in the business of making money for Wellington NOT US Eric
Eric i dont see how you can make such a high and mighty call and roll the whole lot of this group into such derogertive statement, where do you get off saying such a thing,we know that JH is going to use this vehicle to make money for both herself and we the FUND holders,my friend you are tarring yourself with the same brush you idiot because you also lost money on this deal,keep your remarks to your self if they cannot be constructive:banghead:
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Kogo, This question was asked at the Gold Coast Forum, and Jenny confirmed that it would be one vote per share.

So if you have 500k in the fund is to say you have 500k voting power?

So if there are some managers out there that could/may persuade there clients that this fund has no chance under the present economic climate and that liquidation is the only answer and show up to the meeting with a large number of proxies we could all be getting 14(+-) cents on the dollar in March 09.??
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Based on this 75% of the total votes on the day can I ask if the AG will also be issuing any documentation regarding it's position.?

What worries me is that on the day you can be guarranteed that all fund managers etc will be doing their voting for there clients and probably based on a fair amount of communication between themselves and rightly so. I don't know what the percentages of fund manager monies verses individual investors make up the PIF but if the individuals are not following this forum (some don't have computer access for instance)or keeping up with WC news etc how can we be guarranteed that a large number of the 10300 investors will be well enough informed to vote one way or the other.

Has the AG formed a position on how it would like to see the voting??
Will it publish it's position and reason's for/against??

I do somewhat apologize if it looks like I'm picking on Fund managers but when it comes to voting there is strength in numbers not individuals.

My position is to stay with the fund , go with WC as RE's and trust that they are professional enough to do the best job they can do for us and along the way make a few bucks for themselves because if they make it - it should mean that we are too.
I still have not formed an opinion on the NSX thing as yet. There are compelling arguments for and against.
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Based on this 75% of the total votes on the day can I ask if the AG will also be issuing any documentation regarding it's position.?

What worries me is that on the day you can be guarranteed that all fund managers etc will be doing their voting for there clients and probably based on a fair amount of communication between themselves and rightly so. I don't know what the percentages of fund manager monies verses individual investors make up the PIF but if the individuals are not following this forum (some don't have computer access for instance)or keeping up with WC news etc how can we be guarranteed that a large number of the 10300 investors will be well enough informed to vote one way or the other.

Has the AG formed a position on how it would like to see the voting??
Will it publish it's position and reason's for/against??

I do somewhat apologize if it looks like I'm picking on Fund managers but when it comes to voting there is strength in numbers not individuals.

My position is to stay with the fund , go with WC as RE's and trust that they are professional enough to do the best job they can do for us and along the way make a few bucks for themselves because if they make it - it should mean that we are too.
I still have not formed an opinion on the NSX thing as yet. There are compelling arguments for and against.
Well Kogo, If I had my funds invested under a funds manager that voted for liquidation in these circumstances I would be seriously concerned as to the competence of those in charge of my investment!! The managers should be gratefull and endorse all efforts of the only party that has put its reputation on the line and is willing to pick up the pieces and make the best of a bad situation. Going on some of the figures put in the public arena, there are a few private investors that have just as much as stake as the combined net value of wholesale funds.Seamisty
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Eric i dont see how you can make such a high and mighty call and roll the whole lot of this group into such derogertive statement, where do you get off saying such a thing,we know that JH is going to use this vehicle to make money for both herself and we the FUND holders,my friend you are tarring yourself with the same brush you idiot because you also lost money on this deal,keep your remarks to your self if they cannot be constructive:banghead:

My friend Mr Flatback it seens you dont know much about business When one buys a business as WC has done they want to get a return from it A return of there capital then profits from there on If JH gets over the line 75% WC are in a win win cant lose It wont mater if PIF never make another buck WC fees will just keeping eating away at MIF asset base They cant lose Gee would i love to have a business like that The 3 cents be for Xmas & aother next year is just the bait to get suckers like you in That money is coming from the asset base not income it just reduced the our pile AS for you saying JH is going to make money for us all Of cause she must say that I might be dumb but i am sure not stupit ////////
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

My friend Mr Flatback it seens you dont know much about business When one buys a business as WC has done they want to get a return from it A return of there capital then profits from there on If JH gets over the line 75% WC are in a win win cant lose It wont mater if PIF never make another buck WC fees will just keeping eating away at MIF asset base They cant lose Gee would i love to have a business like that The 3 cents be for Xmas & aother next year is just the bait to get suckers like you in That money is coming from the asset base not income it just reduced the our pile AS for you saying JH is going to make money for us all Of cause she must say that I might be dumb but i am sure not stupit ////////

Interesting statement great dame,
I might be dumb but i am sure not stupit ////////
Any business person would want to increase their profits that means to grow the assets under management via responsible fund mangement. Please remember that if JH completely fails as the RE/Fund manager she may lose the respect and leadership qualities that she has worked so hard to achieve. Fund managers, financial planners and investors all want the same thing - that is good returns on invested capital.
Unfortunately there are some people who have no idea and maybe even invested more than 50% of their capital into one investment. I am concerned for my clients funds because there may be some very stupid people around who may scare other people into voting to liquidate the fund.
JH wants all investors to recover their capital within 3-5 years while receiving 6 cents per annum plus she would want to continue to grow PIF into one of the biggest and best managed funds in Australia.
To me that would be a perfect outcome.
Obviously there are no guarantees but 14 cents is not an option.
RickH.
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

'Spose it's difficult to do anything about it, but, has anyone noticed the wording in several articles? "Jenny says"......seems particularly the GC News...eg...The 40 yrs old says "stick with WC as it works to recover 45-65c per unit". Article: "Legal Action Hangs over King, Adams."

Is it just me, or does that imply to you guys that she "intends" to recover 45-64c over the 3-5 yr timeframe?

WE know this is not right, but I am wondering about all our fellow investors, who weren't at the meetings, or even misheard and read newspapers to confirm what they "heard" at the meetings......how will THIS understanding , or MISunderstanding effect their vote?
 
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