Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

[DoraNBoots]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I understand, last I brought it up, that to gain access to the investor list (if we are allowed), it will cost us approx. $14,000 (correct me if I got that wrong).

Regarding the Right to inspect and get copies of the Register.
Because this is a 'Managed Investment Scheme' Anyone can access the register.

I spoke to ASIC about this and how much it should cost. This is covered under CORPORATIONS ACT 2001 - SECT 173
Right to inspect and get copies
“(2) A member of a company or a registered scheme, a registered option holder or a registered debenture holder may inspect a register kept under this Chapter without charge. Other people may inspect the register only on payment of any fee (up to the prescribed amount) required by the company or scheme.”

Does anyone know if we are considered members of the registered scheme? I asked ASIC and they couldn’t answer and said I would have to ask a lawyer. (Javier?) If we are not, then the “prescribed amount” is covered under ‘Regulation Schedule 4’ which says the scheme can charge $5 per entry (if not electronic) or if the Register is electronic they can charge a reasonable amount to cover costs. If anyone knows how to find this “Schedule 4” I would like to see the exact quote as I didn’t write it down and can’t find it. It’s apparently on the comlaw.gov.au web site. I can’t see how $14000 would be a reasonable fee.

I'm thinking we should be able to get this without charge as the definition of a "member" "in relation to a managed investment scheme means a person who holds an interest in the scheme".

 

[communique]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Update from the Gold Coast.
We now have a group of approx 15.
We are organising a face to face meeting within the next
week with all local members. We will have representation at
the up and coming meetings.

 

[Javier]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Give me an idea of where you are meeting communique, so I can suggest a place to the Sydney investors. Syd guys please help me out..I live in the south and work near the airport..would a place near there be fine, or shall we make it round near the city. I have no idea where you all live, so please some suggestions would be of help.

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

An AG member who is a Financial guy, gave me these rough figures as the costs for listing on the National stock Exchange (NSX) as follows:

"Hi Breaker



Check out http://www.nsxa.com.au/listing_fees.asp for NSX fees. This list is long and not sure exactly which ones would apply in our situation.



I put a few rough figures in their calculator. I think the $0.80 price on listing is overly hopeful.



Application Fee - 690,000,000 @ $0.80 = $117,467.56



Annual Fee - 690,000,000 @ $0.80 = $20,484.20



Additional Fees - 690,000,000 @ $0.80 = $19,019



As you can see it isn’t going to break the bank (so to speak). Feel free to put on the forum if you think appropriate?"

So a total cost to the fund of roughly $157,000 in the first year.

We discussed the possible scenarios of the motives behind the NSX listing - I will possibly make that available later as my formed thoughts on the matter - I feel we still need to get more expert opinion, before I take a fixed stance on the matter.

I have discussed the matter of the NSX with two people in the Finance business and the picture is clarifying, but not ready for formal opinion from me yet. I want to get it right!

 

[Alan.Lowther]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Javier,

Could you please advise on the approximate number of AG members that have contacted you. That will help us to try to locate a suitably sized venue.

As Avenue Capital are based in Parramatta and appear to have dragged in a large number of us, would it be suitable to most to seek a venue near to Parramatta where many people may have visited their office?

 

[Tuart]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Good morning all.

It feels like this process is starting to come together.

Your first meeting(s) everyone needs to stay focused on are in establishing your structure. I have recommended forming an incorporated body.

Your first meeting is going to be really only procedural as you do not want to end up asking questions to each other on what is not known which is the position of the fund.

The meeting process WC is conducting is a seperate process to establishing a united collective action group and what processes you need to do this. It will trigger the release of information that needs to be taken and analysed before your group can work out what is best.

In relation to the NSX listing it may or may not be a good mechanism to provide liquidity. The major issue is that it is a decison taken by WC with no consultation to investors and BEFORE THEY COME FORWARD AND PRESENT THE TRUE POSITION OF THE FUND.

The next step required to deal with the work out is dependent on the position of the fund in terms of income, time of repayment of loans etc.

The more you guys stick together the better the final outcome will be as time fixes many problems.

An alternative solution if a significant number of you are comfortable with the assets and longer term value is to allow early redemptions as capital is returned. Start with extreme cases and move from there.

We dont know what is best and we dont know the truth so how can you guys support the proposed listing or not.

You may also find that once the position becomes clearer there are investors who can provide a private secondary market without exposing values to markets that at the moment appear to be subject to manipulation. I would trust this group collectively to try and do the right thing over the market currently.

A final reason for getting on with incorporating your group is that like all procedures there is a process in establishment that must be followed. Once you start that process then you get get together a membership application which will incorporate the power of attorney as well as explanation sheet of PIF Action Group (incorporated) objectives and post or email as new people come forward.

New members must put faith in your proposed committee to get on and represent your interests and manage the collective power that is happening here for your best interests.

Still no news on LLA. SDomeone should ring NAB and ask them exactly why they are threatening to put LLA to the sword which is triggering PIF selling the debt.

Why doesnt PIF with its new banker which I believe may be in the wings go and take out NAB convert some of PIF loan to equity and finish rights issues.

As part of settlement of OCV debt to PIF try and get the hands on the LLA shares they hold. LLA produces cashflow and provided returns to unitholders as part of its stapled security.

The position of LLA in terms of what is required which can be gleaned from the Artic deal when coupled with cashflow statements show LLA potential.

Have a good day

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi all, I am in WA and am willing to liaise with other Western Australian PIF holders on behalf of the AG. Due to distance here in the West it may not be practicle to hold a personal meeting although I manage to get to Perth on occasion. I can be contacted initially by e-mail seamisty@westnet.com.au If you would please leave your ph. no. I will call you to discuss any issues you may have and foward them on to other committee members who will be attending the forthcoming WC meetings. I still have not received formal notification of these meetings from WC or have not had recent e-mails answered from OCV or WC. Regards, Seamisty

 

[communique]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Give me an idea of where you are meeting communique, so I can suggest a place to the Sydney investors. Syd guys please help me out..I live in the south and work near the airport..would a place near there be fine, or shall we make it round near the city. I have no idea where you all live, so please some suggestions would be of help.

We are accessing Community Centre Halls and meeting rooms. Perhaps get in contact with your local councillor for assistance. All the best.

 

[DoraNBoots]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi All,

I have a copy of the Register of Members coming to me which I will forward on to the solicitor. This is coming without charge (as per Section 173 of Corp act).

BTW: The constitution is already in the mail which I asked for earlier this week.

Regards,
Dora.

 

[sak]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I live east airport or city is fine with me

Give me an idea of where you are meeting communique, so I can suggest a place to the Sydney investors. Syd guys please help me out..I live in the south and work near the airport..would a place near there be fine, or shall we make it round near the city. I have no idea where you all live, so please some suggestions would be of help.

 

[iamspeed]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi All,

I have a copy of the Register of Members coming to me which I will forward on to the solicitor. This is coming without charge (as per Section 173 of Corp act).

BTW: The constitution is already in the mail which I asked for earlier this week.

Regards,
Dora.

Dora

Good work on the register of members.

I managed to get an electronic copy of the constitution and have since emailed it to Javier for his solicitor and also Claire from Australian Shareholders Association.

 

[Rocky1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Can anyone advise what power we might have, if necessary to block the PIF listing on the NSX. Surely this can only happen with a majority investor support as it is a major change to the structure we invested in

 

[Ivor Watt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Excellent research Javiar.

The RBOS are not blameless in PIF investor suffering
I was Interested to note BANKWEST are the Subsidary of the ROYAL BANK OF SCOTLAND.
Bankwest will now be losing me as an Investor.
I can’t bank with a financial Institution who shuts down a fund for an undisclosed loan which may have had long term payment date.
The Premium Income Fund Incurred a loan to LLA whilst the bank had stopped distributions and redemptions and then behaved as if it was doing the PIF a huge service.

I have been following the RBOS and it has had some financial heart attacks lately. Most the rating agencies have downgraded it because of their mismanagement.
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11074947

I’m amazed that MFS/Octaviar are still heavily Involved with the Fund. In effect it’s only just a name change.
We still have Hutchins and Perpetual in the loop.
What’s to stop this all happening again if the same structure is there?

Just to clarify, Bankwest is owned by HBOS who are considering selling it.

 

[Tuart]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Rocky1

My understanding of it is that they propose to create effectively a parallel class of unit which is listed not your units.

The day you want to sell you effectively swap your units at the market price of the listed units to listed units and sell these.

The listed fund would overtime own a larger and larger portion of the original PIF units as more are traded.

Technically its a new issue and no change to your structure I think so WC can do it.

Who pays the cost of this new structure makes an interest point to be considered.

I am also not sure if the new class of listed units would be under your scheme umbrella. If if is under this scheme this may be a grey legal area and open up the arguement and your rights to approve.

Proportional share of capital and interest returned to listed units will either be passed to new owner or the capital may be retained by new fund for re-investment. That will be a call made by WC I guess when the establish this scheme.

 

[Rocky1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Tuart

Thanks for your response, I guess we will have to see what they dish up at the forums.

Even if technically our units are not on the NSX ultimately our unit price will be governed by the NSX (is that what you were eluding to). If this is correct then it is one of the same, our unit price will be thrown to wolves.

Also I gather that you don't think we could stop this. There must be a way. If a majority of investors where against it surely they could not proceed

 

[Tuart]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Rocky1

I just had a talk to an investor on that subject and they asked if an injunction could be placed to prevent it.

They made an excellent comment in that should investors wish to consider some form of formal reconstruction of the fund to change its nature to allow a future listing any early listing with the likely decimation of values through firesales shuts the door on this alternative.

Ultimately listing should be something investors as a group should consider but only from an informed position and weighted up against other options such as orderly wind up once the true financial position is provided.

I am not a lawyer but when you use the above arguement about protecting values I feel your incorporated action group could mount a challenge and seek to injunct. By court stopping who is losing ? only any investor trying to sell so if PIF AG could demonstrate that the investor base can create their own secondary market I cannot see any agruement mounted to say anyone would lose through injunction but PIF holders could argue that RE actions have potential to destroy collective value.

The solicitor who is doing some background work on this will pick this topic up as she is know an avid forum follower having PA provide daily copies of posts and will have a better view.

The part I do not get is that WC seems to be adapting an arrogant I know best approach rather than a consultative approach. Why would you rush something like this through rather than getting the facts presented and presenting options.

As mentioned earlier I can think of two alternatives to provide liquidity but until you know the facts hwo so you know whats best.

 

[Tuart]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

last bit was supposed to say "how do you know whats best"

sorry

 

[DoraNBoots]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Can anyone advise what power we might have, if necessary to block the PIF listing on the NSX. Surely this can only happen with a majority investor support as it is a major change to the structure we invested in

Hi Rocky1,

ASIC said the fund can be listed on the NSX without consulting investors. If we feel we would be adversely affected we can lodge a complaint.

Regards,
Dora.

 

[Rocky1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DoraNBoots

I guess we won't know until the forums what we think of the NSX but my early feeling is that it won't be ideal if we want to redeem our money, which seems to be a general consensus from what people are saying on this forum.

This type of investment strategy is not what we originally poured our money into.

I can't see how they could proceed if enough investors objected

 

[Javier]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I had a meeting with the lawyer in town today. She is very knowledgable in the area of managed investments. I think we will be VERY well served by her in the future. I am in the opinion that there is no real point in having Sydney investor meetings prior to the WC forums in less that 3 weeks away as we really only have speculation to work with. Once we know the hard facts we can then move forward and see where we stand.

She agrees with me, as do other Sydney investors that I have spoken to. I hope that WC is the way to go as it would make it easier in terms of not having to find another RE, protection of the OCV $50m facility. The lawyer will be at the Sydney forum, and hopefully we will have enough info from the Brisbane & Melb forums to know where we stand, therby being able to get even more info and where we stand from the benefit of legal representation.

There is more to add, but I must go now..post soon!