Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Wealth Inequality

Have you checked the fiction section of the library?

There almost certainly were white slaves. Any amount of research into the topic would reveal the extent to which poor white people were treated almost as slaves in the UK. Particularly the Irish.

The English middle class (those who owned at least one servant) were my definition more than complicit in the oppression of the working class.

The modern definition of the middle class has been distorted to mean workers who have a living wage. Your middle class people are your lawyers, your property infestors, tradesmen with a business on 200k a year ect.. those are the same lot, who today are more than happy to drive up housing costs and drive wages lower.
 
This is the way I see wealth inequality in Australia.

1. The top level. This includes those that have "made it themselves", those that inherited wealth, and some that have been in a position of influence to direct wealth in their direction.;)
2. Overpaid top business executives often in a position to use companies as "cash cows" to milk their company.:bad:
3. Overpaid workers that have been in a position to "blackmail" their employer into continual wage increases. These are a large number in Australian society. They insist on "Australian" rates of pay but insist on consuming low price products from companies based overseas and using very poorly paid labour. To me they are the "middle class", often employed by government or semi government jobs.
4. Juniors. Overpaid in proportion to their needs. Overpaid to the extent that a large percentage will never find a job where they have to justify their rate of pay. This group expects to buy a new car, go on overseas holidays and party continuously immediately they start work.:bad:
5. These are the real Aussie battlers. Often self employed, working just to make ends meet as they raise a family where the kids expect to get all the things that "other kids", whose parents are in group 2 & 3, get.
6. This is a group supported by welfare and divided into 2 sub groups. The first are able to milk the system for additional benefits not available to all those on welfare. These are the "poor me" in society, often aboriginal or refugees.:cautious:
7. Those on genuine welfare such as the aged and disabled.:)
8. The genuine unemployed who desperately want to work but cant find a job.:
9. The homeless, often through no fault of their own.:1zhelp:
 
There almost certainly were white slaves. Any amount of research into the topic would reveal the extent to which poor white people were treated almost as slaves in the UK. Particularly the Irish.

Any amount of research would reveal the extent of this? I thought it was hidden?:confused:

You're all over the place. You pick a narrative and then try and contort history to fit into that narrative.

Case in point...

The modern definition of the middle class has been distorted to mean workers who have a living wage.

Definition doesn't fit in with my argument so I'll argue the definition is wrong.
 
Any amount of research would reveal the extent of this? I thought it was hidden?:confused:

You're all over the place. You pick a narrative and then try and contort history to fit into that narrative.

Case in point...



Definition doesn't fit in with my argument so I'll argue the definition is wrong.

No, I'm arguing with facts. There was a middle class in England in the 1800s and they did buy and sell the working class as slaves/servants. The main reason this system was maintained for so long was simply because of the strong middle class and just how much they benefited from the suffering and death and torture of others.
 
This is the way I see wealth inequality in Australia.

1. The top level. This includes those that have "made it themselves", those that inherited wealth, and some that have been in a position of influence to direct wealth in their direction.;)
2. Overpaid top business executives often in a position to use companies as "cash cows" to milk their company.:bad:
3. Overpaid workers that have been in a position to "blackmail" their employer into continual wage increases. These are a large number in Australian society. They insist on "Australian" rates of pay but insist on consuming low price products from companies based overseas and using very poorly paid labour. To me they are the "middle class", often employed by government or semi government jobs.
4. Juniors. Overpaid in proportion to their needs. Overpaid to the extent that a large percentage will never find a job where they have to justify their rate of pay. This group expects to buy a new car, go on overseas holidays and party continuously immediately they start work.:bad:
5. These are the real Aussie battlers. Often self employed, working just to make ends meet as they raise a family where the kids expect to get all the things that "other kids", whose parents are in group 2 & 3, get.
6. This is a group supported by welfare and divided into 2 sub groups. The first are able to milk the system for additional benefits not available to all those on welfare. These are the "poor me" in society, often aboriginal or refugees.:cautious:
7. Those on genuine welfare such as the aged and disabled.:)
8. The genuine unemployed who desperately want to work but cant find a job.:
9. The homeless, often through no fault of their own.:1zhelp:

Old people logic = my $39 brand name pair of socks are okay. As are my expensive queensland holidays. !!!! WHAT AN OUTRAGE !!!!

The sad part is that a European holiday is probably cheaper than going to QLD. Most of these boomers fly Qantas (3 times the price of virgin) and only stay in 4 star hotels/eat at restaurants every day.

Gen Y on holiday in europe = stay in a hostel and eat 1-3 euro meals.

No one can spend like a baby boomer.
 
Old people logic = my $39 brand name pair of socks are okay. As are my expensive queensland holidays. !!!! WHAT AN OUTRAGE !!!!

The sad part is that a European holiday is probably cheaper than going to QLD. Most of these boomers fly Qantas (3 times the price of virgin) and only stay in 4 star hotels/eat at restaurants every day.

Gen Y on holiday in europe = stay in a hostel and eat 1-3 euro meals.

No one can spend like a baby boomer.

So, when you retire, you will go to europe and stay in a hostel? You're funny.:D

I'm a baby boomer, self funded, I never went overseas untill I was in my 50's.

Spent most of my 20's and 30's and 40's bringing up kids, taking them on camping holidays, in a Mitsubishi Express.:xyxthumbs

There wasn't any chance of affording an overseas holiday. You're a hoot, telling everyone how hard it is to afford your overseas holidays.

Then you tell us how you can't afford a house, buy an old house and get it jinkered onto a block out of town, fix it up and sell it for a profit.

That's what I did, but you say "it's all too hard", you need to grow up and get on with it. Or keep buying lotto tickets.:xyxthumbs

But I do enjoy your tales of woe and self pity, they're good reading.:xyxthumbs
 
So, when you retire, you will go to europe and stay in a hostel? You're funny.:D

I'm a baby boomer, self funded, I never went overseas untill I was in my 50's.

Spent most of my 20's and 30's and 40's bringing up kids, taking them on camping holidays, in a Mitsubishi Express.:xyxthumbs

There wasn't any chance of affording an overseas holiday. You're a hoot, telling everyone how hard it is to afford your overseas holidays.

Then you tell us how you can't afford a house, buy an old house and get it jinkered onto a block out of town, fix it up and sell it for a profit.

That's what I did, but you say "it's all too hard", you need to grow up and get on with it. Or keep buying lotto tickets.:xyxthumbs

But I do enjoy your tales of woe and self pity, they're good reading.:xyxthumbs

I know you're just teasing. Trying to get me bad because no one can be as ignorant as what that post suggests.

But thanks for proving my point. Look, okay. I went to Europe. It probably set me back about 3.3k. I figured at the time with such cheap flights and the dollar up around 70 cents I'd be stupid not to. I must be a massive **** for taking a holiday. Especially since I was approaching 30, had been to university for 4 years and working for 7.

Tell you what I'll give you 3.3k and you give me one of your houses at 1980s house price to average income multiples ? Then everything is fair. Okay ?

Aside from the fact that not buying a house is my own personal choice and doesn't change the fact that they're over priced.... Baby Boomers really are the generations humans in history.
 
I know you're just teasing. Trying to get me bad because no one can be as ignorant as what that post suggests.

But thanks for proving my point. Look, okay. I went to Europe. It probably set me back about 3.3k. I figured at the time with such cheap flights and the dollar up around 70 cents I'd be stupid not to. I must be a massive **** for taking a holiday. Especially since I was approaching 30, had been to university for 4 years and working for 7.

Tell you what I'll give you 3.3k and you give me one of your houses at 1980s house price to average income multiples ? Then everything is fair. Okay ?

Aside from the fact that not buying a house is my own personal choice and doesn't change the fact that they're over priced.... Baby Boomers really are the generations humans in history.

I can't give you one of my houses, I don't own it, I've sold part equity to fund my retirement.:D

Never went to uni, worked from when I was 15, brought up four kids. Sorry your life is so tough.:xyxthumbs

As I said cheap houses are available, and with work you can add value.
What your problem is, you want the easy way, well most people have to work to get what they want. Build equity and add value, grow up.
 
No, I'm arguing with facts. There was a middle class in England in the 1800s and they did buy and sell the working class as slaves/servants. The main reason this system was maintained for so long was simply because of the strong middle class and just how much they benefited from the suffering and death and torture of others.

I don't think we should blame the middle class. I don't even think we ought to blame the plutocrats either - the ultra, uber rich needs love too.

There are good and civic minded people in all classes and economic strata; there are also pure exploiters and corrupt/abusive people who are poor too. In general though, most people just want to better themselves and take care of their family... and they will use whatever means is available to them to pursue that.

So as long as they do not break the current law, can we really blame them?

Not saying that the law and the legal system is moral; not saying that what is legal is morally acceptable... But as long as we live under a legal system, that's how it is and we'd all do the same stuff we're complaining about if we have the means.

I don't think you would think too much about buying a $5 quality shirt or a $25 pair of jeans. Does that mean you don't care about the exploited workers in poor countries? You'd probably think how badly the other poor have it, how exploited they are... but at the end of the day, you'd wish you could pay more if it would do a lot of good etc. etc. I think we're all like that.


So really, the only people you could blame for your and society's woes are the elected leadership. Other citizens' job is to get a job and pay the required taxes... politician's jobs is to look after the people they are supposed to represent. If policies do not achieve that, if people can't afford a home or find a job... it's the leadership that's to blame.

The CEO that push wages down, the big fat cats that lobbies and buy politicians, the middle class and baby boomers that own properties and drive it up or whatever... they're doing what they're supposed to do. We'd wish they would think more and care more for society, but that's not their job.


So if you want change or think the world is unfair, get into politics or organise rallies; expecting the world to be more caring is too much; blaming people who work hard or not work at all to get ahead is not right, and not that useful to you either.

Some smart guy once advised us to be the change we want to be. So if you want a more caring world, start caring more; want a fairer dealing world, start dealing fairly with others... you may find you'd get screwed now and then, may find the road a lonely one... but that's the price for doing what you think is right.

Then when you gain wealth honestly and fairly, you may help those in need like you yourself once needed help... and lecture and write books or have books written about your integrity and honesty and hardword... and then all people will come to listen and ask how you to make all that money, haha.
 
I can't give you one of my houses, I don't own it, I've sold part equity to fund my retirement.:D

Never went to uni, worked from when I was 15, brought up four kids. Sorry your life is so tough.:xyxthumbs

As I said cheap houses are available, and with work you can add value.
What your problem is, you want the easy way, well most people have to work to get what they want. Build equity and add value, grow up.

You had it easy. You didn't work hard. Maybe you did both, who cares, the point is it was easy for you. You had it all set up for you by people with a social conscience. The generation before you set everything up because many came from a war ravaged society and wanted to make life better for their kids.

Just like my generation or the one's a bit younger. When the greedy boomers are dead and gone we're going to set things up for our generations kids, because many people in their 30s and 40s are very worried about what kind of future their children are going to have. I would hate to be 20 today it would be an absolute crap shoot. Unaffordable education, no jobs, hugely expensive housing and you've got a consumer force full of cranky old entitled boomers.
 
I don't think we should blame the middle class. I don't even think we ought to blame the plutocrats either - the ultra, uber rich needs love too.

There are good and civic minded people in all classes and economic strata; there are also pure exploiters and corrupt/abusive people who are poor too. In general though, most people just want to better themselves and take care of their family... and they will use whatever means is available to them to pursue that.

So as long as they do not break the current law, can we really blame them?

Not saying that the law and the legal system is moral; not saying that what is legal is morally acceptable... But as long as we live under a legal system, that's how it is and we'd all do the same stuff we're complaining about if we have the means.

I don't think you would think too much about buying a $5 quality shirt or a $25 pair of jeans. Does that mean you don't care about the exploited workers in poor countries? You'd probably think how badly the other poor have it, how exploited they are... but at the end of the day, you'd wish you could pay more if it would do a lot of good etc. etc. I think we're all like that.

I don't care about other countries.
 
You had it easy. You didn't work hard. Maybe you did both, who cares, the point is it was easy for you. You had it all set up for you by people with a social conscience. The generation before you set everything up because many came from a war ravaged society and wanted to make life better for their kids.

Just like my generation or the one's a bit younger. When the greedy boomers are dead and gone we're going to set things up for our generations kids, because many people in their 30s and 40s are very worried about what kind of future their children are going to have. I would hate to be 20 today it would be an absolute crap shoot. Unaffordable education, no jobs, hugely expensive housing and you've got a consumer force full of cranky old entitled boomers.

I'm 28 and I've been given many opportunities. This idea that it's a huge struggle is crap. Obviously it's not easy, but life is much better overall than it would have been 50 years ago.

If you think housing is too expensive, don't buy it. There are other asset classes that offer better returns, so if finances are your concern, I'd suggest going there. Just takes a bit of self-education and hard work, but it's doable.


Truth is, we can complain all we like, but we're better off learning about the situation we're in, identifying the opportunities and proceeding accordingly.

And for what it's worth, it's not just the boomers with the entitlement attitude - everyone has it.
 
You had it easy. You didn't work hard. Maybe you did both, who cares, the point is it was easy for you. You had it all set up for you by people with a social conscience. The generation before you set everything up because many came from a war ravaged society and wanted to make life better for their kids.

Just like my generation or the one's a bit younger. When the greedy boomers are dead and gone we're going to set things up for our generations kids, because many people in their 30s and 40s are very worried about what kind of future their children are going to have. I would hate to be 20 today it would be an absolute crap shoot. Unaffordable education, no jobs, hugely expensive housing and you've got a consumer force full of cranky old entitled boomers.

That is just nonsense, our parents had nothing, wages didn't start improving untill the 70's.
A car was three years wages, now the price of a car is about half the average yearly wage. The same goes for most consumables like electronics, furniture, holidays etc.
Housing has outstripped wages, but it doesn't mean people can't afford them, they just may not be able to afford the McMansion.

Which the baby boomers couldn't afford either, when they were younger. Life is always about choices, you've obviously made yours, as my kids have.

Some are getting on with it, some are mopiing and complaining, I hope it works for you.
 
A comment last night from a 24 yo female (my daughter) who has been reading this thread. No way would I date a fully paid up member of the Losers Club if they have an attitude like Mr Mrmagoo.
 
I'm 28 and I've been given many opportunities. This idea that it's a huge struggle is crap. Obviously it's not easy, but life is much better overall than it would have been 50 years ago.

If you think housing is too expensive, don't buy it. There are other asset classes that offer better returns, so if finances are your concern, I'd suggest going there. Just takes a bit of self-education and hard work, but it's doable.

Truth is, we can complain all we like, but we're better off learning about the situation we're in, identifying the opportunities and proceeding accordingly.

And for what it's worth, it's not just the boomers with the entitlement attitude - everyone has it.

50 years ago the boomers were in their childhood or very early 20s. Since then things grew exponentially. Whatever we benefited from like wage growth, they got the same benefit from only in greater numbers.

There are a huge number of boomers who have enormous salaries just because they happened to be around with experience right when things were starting to take off.

What you're really trying to refer to are our grandparents, who did have it a lot harder. I won't doubt that. And any benefits of rising wages and house prices happened right as they were leaving the workforce. So not only did they deal with WW2 and the great depression, they missed out on most of the benefits. They would have been laid off in the 1970s and 1980s and been replaced by the baby boomers. That also happened. Many of the silent generation were literally forced out of their jobs by baby boomers.

You can call me a loser for speaking the truth if you want. It is very far from the truth and an almost laughable personal attack with no basis.
 
A comment last night from a 24 yo female (my daughter) who has been reading this thread. No way would I date a fully paid up member of the Losers Club if they have an attitude like Mr Mrmagoo.

I don't even know what kind of a person would use their daughter in that sort of a context.
 
That is just nonsense, our parents had nothing, wages didn't start improving untill the 70's.
A car was three years wages, now the price of a car is about half the average yearly wage. The same goes for most consumables like electronics, furniture, holidays etc.
Housing has outstripped wages, but it doesn't mean people can't afford them, they just may not be able to afford the McMansion.

Which the baby boomers couldn't afford either, when they were younger. Life is always about choices, you've obviously made yours, as my kids have.

Some are getting on with it, some are mopiing and complaining, I hope it works for you.

Gen Y are not necessarily young. Many of my friends are having their second child and having insane difficulty upgrading their homes without going into significant debt.

You're wrong. If housing has outstripped wages that is that not definition of unaffordable ?

Also, keep your nonsense assumptions about me to yourself. I do just fine. But people like you teach me the reason why socialism is a failure and why we need a more market orientated system if we're going to address inequality.
 
You can call me a loser for speaking the truth if you want. It is very far from the truth and an almost laughable personal attack with no basis.

Wow, slow down. I never called anyone a loser, nor did I make any personal attacks. I just think that there are plenty of opportunities, and that you're better off playing the hand you're dealt, rather than arguing someone else got a better deal.
 
.

If housing has outstripped wages that is that not definition of unaffordable ?

It may be yours.
In the real world, it is not even a definition of less affordable.
Explaining this would be futile.
 
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