Ukraine War

[qldfrog]

I think all the CIA trolls and let's eat commies dinosaurs here missed that one.

Damaged European undersea cables impact internet connectivity worldwide - PanamaTimes

An unlikely coincidence or did Russian sabotage temporarily put Internet access on hold?

panatimes.com

So either pay back from Russia after the pipelines sabotages, or just the US ramping up the heat:
after all ,how convenient that EU seems to be the only target from Russia time after time....

Some details:
Not an under water attack, just sabotage of burried pipe near aix.
As France is a lawless state where dozen of km of copper cables are stolen overning on the peripherique by eastern gangs...send more money to ukraine?, it might have nothing to do with Russia or Ukraine,just the slow collapse of a doomed country

Comment le sabotage d'un câble internet dans le sud de la France a affecté la connectivité mondiale

Un câble terrestre sectionné aux alentours d'Aix-en-Provence, relié à d'importants câbles sous-marins en Atlantique et en Méditerranée, a provoqué un ralentissement de l'Internet mondial.

www.clubic.com

 

[Dona Ferentes]

It's called Hybrid warfare. A week or so ago, most of DB rail network in NE Germany was stopped for several hours when important signalling was cut.

 

[joeno]

The USA have the most liberal and free internet access and use in the world, it is like the wild west without a sheriff. Most other countries have a free internet with minor laws in place to protect people from people like Alex Jones.

Yes America is so free. I would love to live in this country because it is so free.
- It doesn't stop institutional racism in universities.
- It doesn't stop elementary school shootings.
- It doesn't stop radical media corporations creating fake news en masse and brainwashing its people and overseas
- It doesn't stop genocide of the actual first inhabitants of the country - the Native Americans.
- It doesn't stop invading countries like Iraq for oil
- It doesn't stop trying to "extradite" whistleblowers (traitors) like Assange and Snowden.
- It doesn't stop lying about such invasion with the excuse of WMDs
- It doesn't stop trying to interfere, control every part of the world through puppet governments and installing dictatorships who are friendly to the US
- It doesn't stop supporting apartheid states like Israel.
- It doesn't stop people electing pyramid scammers (who also has the bonus of being an unhinged racist) like Trump
- It doesn't stop their political system being 2 Parties, both of which want to wage war
- It doesn't stop the government from ignoring the entire population that votes for them in office and instead taking $$$ from various lobbies.

World leaders warned Puttin and Russia that the invasion of a free and sovereign country would be met by harsh sanctions.

When you go on about Russia being the victim here, it sounds like that you have not bothered to read all the facts or study some history. Instead, you try to guilt everyone by mentioning censorship and banning, 'going against the narrative', and so on. Maybe there is some truth in what you say, but you are yet to supply any evidence that would stand up to any simple assessment let alone an international court.

What are you talking about? Russia is the victim? No way Jose. America is the victim. How dare Russia send their military within 8,000km of the US mainland. The US always respects the borders of other countries and would in no way ever dare threaten any country in the world let alone invade them.

The US only sends their bombers out on runs for the purpose of defending US soil from those highly aggressive Yemenese, Afghans and Syrians. How dare these countries... exist.

By the way I am not a Russian sympathizer. Hope we are clear on that. I love America. I don't want to be sent to Guantanamo Bay or tortured.

russia and china censor also, well its a free country here you can move to russia or china. and live the good life there. Don't put up any moment longer with the bad life here ?

I heard there were these people before that also wanted the other (newer)people to move elsewhere due to differences in values... hmm what were they called? A---. Ab---. Ah nevermind.

And might take "Animal Farm" and "1984 " along for some light reading.

What happened in the 1984? Can someone remind me? I remember watching the movie a long time ago... something to do with being controlled by an omnipresent "big brother" right? Large controlling system of media dispersal that has presence all of the world. That forces people to believe in things they want you to believe in... to make it seem like it was your idea in the first place. To make believing in anything else ostracizing and dangerous.

You know what - doesn't ring a bell.

 

[JohnDe]

Yes America is so free. I would love to live in this country because it is so free.
- It doesn't stop institutional racism in universities.
- It doesn't stop elementary school shootings.
- It doesn't stop radical media corporations creating fake news en masse and brainwashing its people and overseas
- It doesn't stop genocide of the actual first inhabitants of the country - the Native Americans.
- It doesn't stop invading countries like Iraq for oil
- It doesn't stop trying to "extradite" whistleblowers (traitors) like Assange and Snowden.
- It doesn't stop lying about such invasion with the excuse of WMDs
- It doesn't stop trying to interfere, control every part of the world through puppet governments and installing dictatorships who are friendly to the US
- It doesn't stop supporting apartheid states like Israel.
- It doesn't stop people electing pyramid scammers (who also has the bonus of being an unhinged racist) like Trump
- It doesn't stop their political system being 2 Parties, both of which want to wage war
- It doesn't stop the government from ignoring the entire population that votes for them in office and instead taking $$$ from various lobbies.


What are you talking about? Russia is the victim? No way Jose. America is the victim. How dare Russia send their military within 8,000km of the US mainland. The US always respects the borders of other countries and would in no way ever dare threaten any country in the world let alone invade them.

The US only sends their bombers out on runs for the purpose of defending US soil from those highly aggressive Yemenese, Afghans and Syrians. How dare these countries... exist.

By the way I am not a Russian sympathizer. Hope we are clear on that. I love America. I don't want to be sent to Guantanamo Bay or tortured.



I heard there were these people before that also wanted the other (newer)people to move elsewhere due to differences in values... hmm what were they called? A---. Ab---. Ah nevermind.



What happened in the 1984? Can someone remind me? I remember watching the movie a long time ago... something to do with being controlled by an omnipresent "big brother" right? Large controlling system of media dispersal that has presence all of the world. That forces people to believe in things they want you to believe in... to make it seem like it was your idea in the first place. To make believing in anything else ostracizing and dangerous.

You know what - doesn't ring a bell.

The book was a lot better.

 

[qldfrog]

For anyone genuinely interested in the Ukrainian civil war, and why we are where we are

Ukraine - Orange Revolution, Yushchenko, Presidency

Ukraine - Orange Revolution, Yushchenko, Presidency: The presidential election of 2004 brought Ukraine to the brink of disintegration and civil war. Cleared to seek a third term as president by the Constitutional Court, Kuchma instead endorsed the candidacy of Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych...

www.britannica.com

This is a western biaised view moreover so i have no issue trusting it...
How quick has the orange lady and orange revolution been forgotten by the so called democracies to give the prime time to the TShirt deep state puppets..

 

[JohnDe]

For anyone genuinely interested in the Ukrainian civil war, and why we are where we are

Ukraine - Orange Revolution, Yushchenko, Presidency

Ukraine - Orange Revolution, Yushchenko, Presidency: The presidential election of 2004 brought Ukraine to the brink of disintegration and civil war. Cleared to seek a third term as president by the Constitutional Court, Kuchma instead endorsed the candidacy of Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych...

www.britannica.com

This is a western biaised view moreover so i have no issue trusting it...
How quick has the orange lady and orange revolution been forgotten by the so called democracies to give the prime time to the TShirt deep state puppets..

Sorry, I do not understand what you're trying to say.

Could you please explain.

My understanding of your comment is -

'the Ukraine's 2004 civil conflict against corruption is the reason for the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022, and the article submitted proves this. However the article is western biased and so trusting it is questionable.'​

 

[againsthegrain]

Video from a Russian pilots helmet camera of being shot down and catapulting.

Amazing he survived and simply walked away was flying and shot down at such low altitude

 

[againsthegrain]

Sorry, I do not understand what you're trying to say.

Could you please explain.

My understanding of your comment is -

'the Ukraine's 2004 civil conflict against corruption is the reason for the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022, and the article submitted proves this. However the article is western biased and so trusting it is questionable.'​

I'll say frog does have a certain point there, Ukraine nor any other country/government are not saints.
Really hard to say how much and how many people in the eastern regions wanted to break away at the start. During 2014 it was proved Putin was sending in fake citizens over the border to cast doubts and votes. However with a open mind I can't 100% say there was no people living in the disputed territories that shared this view.


Even in Australia now there is quiet Chinese minorities in Melbourne and Sydney that are quietly trying to introduce the idea of China annexing parts of Australia. Crazy and insignificant nobody takes it serious and hopefully they don't. This is a perfect example how a movement starts from a single seed of a idea and thought that is planted and cultivated correctly

 

[qldfrog]

I'll say frog does have a certain point there, Ukraine nor any other country/government are not saints.
Really hard to say how much and how many people in the eastern regions wanted to break away at the start. During 2014 it was proved Putin was sending in fake citizens over the border to cast doubts and votes. However with a open mind I can't 100% say there was no people living in the disputed territories that shared this view.


Even in Australia now there is quiet Chinese minorities in Melbourne and Sydney that are quietly trying to introduce the idea of China annexing parts of Australia. Crazy and insignificant nobody takes it serious and hopefully they don't. This is a perfect example how a movement starts from a single seed of a idea and thought that is planted and cultivated correctly

I was just trying to teach a bit of history tgere instead of gullibly swallowing propaganda.you will note that internationally monitored and considered valid..not by putin but eu etc ended with a president being reversed by the current clique.
I also want people to remember the so called orange revolution..and try to think about what happened after and where does the current civil war or russian invasion ? stands in that regards.
And yes it is bloody relevant, and yes it is hard, you have to use the brain instead of switching TV.
In the meantime, we send weapons , prevent any peace initiative and let young blokes and civilians from both camps die with a glee.yes with a glee.
It is pathetic and remind me of the hords of nazis lining up the german streets in 1936...
And now we will have the nuke strikes within weeks..each blaming the other with the ultimate victorious party claiming the truth and entering it in history books....

 

[noirua]

I was just trying to teach a bit of history tgere instead of gullibly swallowing propaganda.you will note that internationally monitored and considered valid..not by putin but eu etc ended with a president being reversed by the current clique.
I also want people to remember the so called orange revolution..and try to think about what happened after and where does the current civil war or russian invasion ? stands in that regards.
And yes it is bloody relevant, and yes it is hard, you have to use the brain instead of switching TV.
In the meantime, we send weapons , prevent any peace initiative and let young blokes and civilians from both camps die with a glee.yes with a glee.
It is pathetic and remind me of the hords of nazis lining up the german streets in 1936...
And now we will have the nuke strikes within weeks..each blaming the other with the ultimate victorious party claiming the truth and entering it in history books....

Just like being on a football field a person is out there to win. In war anything goes and if your side fights harder and gains an advantage by convincing soldiers the opposition eats babies then that's OK. Our side must win at all costs. Anyone on our side who speaks well of the opposition is a traitor.

 

[JohnDe]

I was just trying to teach a bit of history tgere instead of gullibly swallowing propaganda.you will note that internationally monitored and considered valid..not by putin but eu etc ended with a president being reversed by the current clique.
I also want people to remember the so called orange revolution..and try to think about what happened after and where does the current civil war or russian invasion ? stands in that regards.
And yes it is bloody relevant, and yes it is hard, you have to use the brain instead of switching TV.
In the meantime, we send weapons , prevent any peace initiative and let young blokes and civilians from both camps die with a glee.yes with a glee.
It is pathetic and remind me of the hords of nazis lining up the german streets in 1936...
And now we will have the nuke strikes within weeks..each blaming the other with the ultimate victorious party claiming the truth and entering it in history books....

Poor quality teaching does no one any good.

Whose propaganda are you inferring too?

Are you comparing the Ukrainian people to "the hordes of Nazis in 1936"?

I believe that it is you that need to be taught, rather than give the lessons. The Ukraine protests that you mention were caused by people protesting against corruption and loss of freedom. How is that a bad thing, how has that given reason to Putin's mad war?

Why did Putin not assist with troops in 2004 and 2014?

The Orange Revolution (Ukrainian: Помаранчева революція, romanized: Pomarancheva revoliutsiia) was a series of protests and political events, that took place in Ukraine from late November 2004 to January 2005, in the immediate aftermath of the run-off vote of the 2004 Ukrainian presidential election, which was claimed to be marred by massive corruption, voter intimidation and electoral fraud. Kyiv, the Ukrainian capital, was the focal point of the movement's campaign of civil resistance, with thousands of protesters demonstrating daily.[6] Nationwide,[7] the revolution was highlighted by a series of acts of civil disobedience, sit-ins, and general strikes organized by the opposition movement.​

​

The protests were prompted by reports from several domestic and foreign election monitors as well as the widespread public perception that the results of the run-off vote of 21 November 2004 between leading candidates Viktor Yushchenko and Viktor Yanukovych were rigged by the authorities in favour of the latter.​

The majority of the Ukrainian people have wanted to be part of the EU for a long time, they want to be part of a western democracy, they want to be rid of corruption and fear of a police state. In wanting these things that we take for granted, they have had to meet EU criteria Joining the EU - European Union

How is wanting to be free of corruption and fear of Putin's Russia, the Ukraine fault for a Russian invasion?

 

[qldfrog]

Just like being on a football field a person is out there to win. In war anything goes and if your side fights harder and gains an advantage by convincing soldiers the opposition eats babies then that's OK. Our side must win at all costs. Anyone on our side who speaks well of the opposition is a traitor.

You are right, and i fully understand why and how they do it: both sides but i once had hope that with years at Uni, widespread education and former easy travel, and a limitless source of information, at least in the west (the chinese population does not have this resource/excuse), the western population would be less gullible, more informed..in short less dumb.
Covid spam was the great rehearsal and sadly propaganda is at least as effective now as in the 1900s.
Worse when you see the calibre of some of the posters on this thread not exactly illeterate or dumb but critical spirit and free spirit out of the door anyway.
It is bad and does not augure well.
Mr @Ducati pointed to a very interesting paper recently

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

 

[joeno]

The majority of the Ukrainian people have wanted to be part of the EU for a long time, they want to be part of a western democracy, they want to be rid of corruption and fear of a police state. In wanting these things that we take for granted, they have had to meet EU criteria Joining the EU - European Union

How is wanting to be free of corruption and fear of Putin's Russia, the Ukraine fault for a Russian invasion?

Hmm... w. democracy didn't seem to work too well for Brazil, Cuba, Iran, Iraq etc...

Ok let's entice all of the FSU countries around Russia to join the EU/NATO and expect Russia to not only do nothing about it but allow the breaking of prior agreements:

"James A. Baker made to former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev during a meeting on February 9, 1990. In a discussion on the status of a reunited Germany, the two men agreed that NATO would not extend past the territory of East Germany, a promise repeated by NATO’s secretary general in a speech on May 17 that same year in Brussels."

To be clear i don't believe Russia will dare to touch an actual NATO/EU country such as Poland. If they do it's likely the end of Russia... but then also a good chance the end of the world

 

[againsthegrain]

Hmm... w. democracy didn't seem to work too well for Brazil, Cuba, Iran, Iraq etc...

Ok let's entice all of the FSU countries around Russia to join the EU/NATO and expect Russia to not only do nothing about it but allow the breaking of prior agreements:

"James A. Baker made to former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev during a meeting on February 9, 1990. In a discussion on the status of a reunited Germany, the two men agreed that NATO would not extend past the territory of East Germany, a promise repeated by NATO’s secretary general in a speech on May 17 that same year in Brussels."

To be clear i don't believe Russia will dare to touch an actual NATO/EU country such as Poland. If they do it's likely the end of Russia... but then also a good chance the end of the world

Russia also signed the Budapest Memorandum in 93 which stated amongst other terms that it will respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders and refrain from the threat or the use of force against the signatory.

 

[Dona Ferentes]

Whataboutism is a poor substitute for discussion.

 

[joeno]

Whataboutism is a poor substitute for discussion.

Here's my humble take on some FAQs as a defender of western democracy:

"US did the same thing many times but received no sanctions nor risked WW3"
WHATABOUTISM!!!! How dare you bring up a like-to-like comparison!

"Maybe Russia had legitimate security concerns and reasons for the invasion?"
ORCS AREN'T ENTITLED TO SECURITY YOU PRO-PUTIN SPY COMMIE

"Maybe we should try to compromise and find a peaceful solution"
FIGHT RUSSIA KILL PUTIN IS ONLY SOLUTION YOU PRO-PUTIN SPY COMMIE. I know what I am talking about. I watch both Sky News and Channel 7

I hope I have contributed well to the discussion about the Russia/Ukraine/NATO conflict.

 

[JohnDe]

Here's my humble take on some FAQs as a defender of western democracy:

"US did the same thing many times but received no sanctions nor risked WW3"
WHATABOUTISM!!!! How dare you bring up a like-to-like comparison!

"Maybe Russia had legitimate security concerns and reasons for the invasion?"
ORCS AREN'T ENTITLED TO SECURITY YOU PRO-PUTIN SPY COMMIE

"Maybe we should try to compromise and find a peaceful solution"
FIGHT RUSSIA KILL PUTIN IS ONLY SOLUTION YOU PRO-PUTIN SPY COMMIE. I know what I am talking about. I watch both Sky News and Channel 7

I hope I have contributed well to the discussion about the Russia/Ukraine/NATO conflict.

Here you go -

Many in Mideast see hypocrisy in Western embrace of Ukraine

Many in Mideast see hypocrisy in Western embrace of Ukraine

JERUSALEM (AP) — Within days of the Russian invasion, Western countries invoked international law, imposed crippling sanctions, began welcoming refugees with open arms and cheered on Ukraine's armed resistance.

apnews.com

 

[Knobby22]

Nations such as Russia and China produce propaganda to the west because some people are susceptible to it.

Ukraine is a Nazi state. USA set up chemical warfare laboratories near the Ukraine Russian border.

Both absurd

1. Ukraine had just elected someone from the general populace and the people are fighting hard because they are a democracy and want freedom.

2. If the USA were to set up secret chemical labs they would locate them in highly secure areas, not on the Russian border.

I think why people fall for propaganda is that they want to think the worst of their own countries actions especially in the case of the USA.

 

[finicky]

Nations such as Russia and China produce propaganda to the west because some people are susceptible to it.

That's my neighbour. He says that the Chinese people support Xi. Sides against Ukraine and with Russia because NATO is an encirclement. He's a bitter old educated leftie on a pension provided by this Australian capitalist society who would pick the filthy CCP and the mobster Putin over the USA any day on any issue. Fortunately we have sustained viable neighbourly relations but really I would like to strangle him. The thing is, he is more intelligent than me in a lot of ways which makes me even more enraged, the f'g fool.

 

[qldfrog]

That's my neighbour. He says that the Chinese people support Xi. Sides against Ukraine and with Russia because NATO is an encirclement. He's a bitter old educated leftie on a pension provided by this Australian capitalist society who would pick the filthy CCP and the mobster Putin over the USA any day on any issue. Fortunately we have sustained viable neighbourly relations but really I would like to strangle him. The thing is, he is more intelligent than me in a lot of ways which makes me even more enraged, the f'g fool.

The thing is, he is more intelligent than me in a lot of ways which makes me even more enraged.
Well if you truly believe that, maybe it could be time to question your certitudes and see case by case where you should stand? There is no black and white( no playing the race card here LOL), and the USA of 2022 is a very different best from the 1980s.
Who do you think is in power there?
Seriously!
As for the chinese people being behind Xi, i have absolutely no doubt about that.Remember they are behind firewall with even FB ,twitter dreaming of ever achieving such an efficient censorship.