The Middle East and Western Asia: Bit of a hot spot?

[Rafa]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

yes, this is a slippery slope...
i thought i throw it out there for discussion simply becuase there is a lot of self interest at play here... and lot of us try and take the moral high ground, blame this, blame that, blame the US, blame the muslims, blame the evil corporations, etc, etc...

i know a lot of people who justify to themselves that they are not directly responsible for Iraq... and hence absolved of any guilt. but in the end, we all want our lifestyle, our cheap goods, etc, etc and oil is a vital part of all this, be it in plastics, or cheap imports, or indeed mobility.

so isn't trying to secure oil supplies for the 'allies' in our best interest? and indeed its in our best interest to be with the 'allies'.

PS: please bear with me on this one... just thinking out loud... but certainly most interested to hear peoples comments on this.

 

[robert toms]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

I do not think governments are fighting in Iraq for us...they are fighting for their political future.They do not believe that any government would be voted back in if standards of living drop.
And after educating people to believe that they are entitled to ever increasing standards of living...greed is good....how could they sell lower standards of living to the electorate?
When too much is not enough !

 

[chops_a_must]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

i know a lot of people who justify to themselves that they are not directly responsible for Iraq... and hence absolved of any guilt. but in the end, we all want our lifestyle, our cheap goods, etc, etc and oil is a vital part of all this, be it in plastics, or cheap imports, or indeed mobility.

In a way, anyone who has voted liberal in oz, for GWB in the US, or Blair in the UK, is responsible for the war in Iraq. And all three were voted in again after the war had "ended". Thereby, those people voting for them again gave their moral support to the war, and support of the blood for oil policy. Now admitted by Coward.

I remember protesting the Iraq war, being beaten up, and at the time being branded as cynical for suggesting it was all about oil. It seems I am becoming increasingly vindicated for my stand, and the oldies that argued vehemently with me were wrong on all fronts.

It's a sad sad day in history when the cynics are actually correct.

So is the modern saying, "cynicism begets truth".

Chops.

 

[disarray]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

its just overconsumption. the system needs people to keep spending credit to buy crappy goods with built in obsolesence dates and shrouded in masses of packaging. armed with huge marketing budgets, glitzy packaging and hype, advertisers dangle these trinkets in front of the sheeple who happily hammer away at their credit cards, thus perpetuating the (eventually unsustainable) cycle.

watching thousands of people camp out in excited anticipation to buy an iphone, or barge down the doors knocking people over at grace brothers on boxing day in some psychotic consumerist frenzy, it just makes me want to punch people.

and chops, i think "In a way, anyone who has voted liberal in oz, for GWB in the US, or Blair in the UK, is responsible for the war in Iraq" is pushing it. looking at the iraq conflict as a whole, i think liberal voters are way way way down on this list of people at "fault" for the war. but i definately agree, cynicism begets truth.

 

[chops_a_must]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Well we were in the coalition.

And at the end of the day, in democratic societies, the buck stops with the voters. We give our politicians mandates. Like in this instance.

 

[Dukey]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

In a way, anyone who has voted liberal in oz, for GWB in the US, or Blair in the UK, is responsible for the war in Iraq. And all three were voted in again after the war had "ended". Thereby, those people voting for them again gave their moral support to the war, and support of the blood for oil policy. Now admitted by Coward.
.....

Chops.

In a way I agree chops - though I guess it's not quite that simple. I'd like to think a labour government would've had the guts to tell GWB where to get off - at or near the start of this fiasco. BUT when it comes down to it - I'm really not sure they actually would have, or could have - cause our reliance on the US as an ally to ward off potential local threats - even distant future ones - is too great.

its just overconsumption. the system needs people to keep spending credit to buy crappy goods with built in obsolesence dates and shrouded in masses of packaging. armed with huge marketing budgets, glitzy packaging and hype, advertisers dangle these trinkets in front of the sheeple who happily hammer away at their credit cards, thus perpetuating the (eventually unsustainable) cycle.

watching thousands of people camp out in excited anticipation to buy an iphone, or barge down the doors knocking people over at grace brothers on boxing day in some psychotic consumerist frenzy, it just makes me want to punch people.

... .....

Agree with you too Disarray ! must be in an agreeable mood today....
Rampant consumerism is a HUGE problem for humanity and ultimately planet earth. >> The west leads the way and everyone else wants to follow. It seems everyone wants to be PERFECTLY comfortable 100% of the time - so we spend squillions to air-condition every space we occupy - burning precious fuels as we do.
Equally - so many folk simply MUST have the latest greatest gadgets/cars/whatever as soon as it appears and the old one is instantly valueless. Having spent time in Japan I'm sure you would've noticed how used cars are crazy cheap here and (sometimes) perfectly good appliances - fridges etc - get chucked onto the pavement in the rain essentially because no-one wants it. Only the newest will do. I was shocked by Japanese consumerism when I first came here. Still am regularly.
Having said that - I'm equally shocked that Oz seems to be going the same way - at least in the city bred folks.

 

[2020hindsight]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

1. I'm really not sure they (Labour) actually would have, or could have - cause our reliance on the US as an ally to ward off potential local threats - even distant future ones - is too great.

2. Equally - so many folk simply MUST have the latest greatest gadgets/cars/whatever as soon as it appears and the old one is instantly valueless. .....Only the newest will do. I was shocked by Japanese consumerism when I first came here.

hi dukey
1. heck, you could argue that Mad Mark (Latham) has been proven right to call GWB a dangerous man or whatever. gotta feeling he went a bit further than that. ( I wonder how he gets taxis these days? - probably under a pseudonym )

NZ seem to be getting by ok - let's not forget USA needs us as well ( satellite comms etc) - by which I simply mean that our leaders shouldn't simply be "roll-over-yes-men",

and maybe if we played a little harder to get, ...

why then I believe that USA would still respect us in the morning

2. follows from Toffler's "Future Shock" a bit - he was saying men would move jobs between cities, and just get a new wife and family.
I think the ability to work at home and use the web to communicate with the office would make him (Toffler) have a rethink there at least

 

[2020hindsight]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/05/1971263.htm just more on Nelson, Howard, Rudd, and oil.

http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/05/1970593.htm this is a problem of "our own" (well "someone" 's own) making.

 

[Santob]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Its more about pilfering the public wealth into private hands before the forecoming US economic collapse.

 

[Sean K]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

I once joked to a friend that the way to fix the Middle East problem was to put a big fence up around the region, throw in some guns, and the last left standing wins.

Seems I should be writing foreign policy for the Bush disaster.

 

[Sean K]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Is this setting the grounds to justify directly attacking Iran's military?

US to declare Iran guards terrorists

Helene Cooper, Washington
August 16, 2007

THE Bush Administration is moving towards declaring that Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps is a foreign terrorist organisation.

If imposed, the declaration would signal a more confrontational turn in the Administration's approach to Iran and would be the first time that the US has added the armed forces of any sovereign government to its list of terrorist organisations.

 

[jonojpsg]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Kind of makes you wince doesn't it! Doesn't look good for enduring peace and harmony

 

[arminius]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

f117s will be flying around tehran, minus their payload, by march 08

 

[toc_bat]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Is this setting the grounds to justify directly attacking Iran's military?

Thats insane,

From everything I have been hearing, reading, digesting, it would seem that the republicans are unlikely to win the next US election, unless of course the US is embroiled in another war, history shows that electorates are very unwilling to change govt during a war. If those people start a war just to increase their chance of staying in power then they are worse than anyone they point the finger atm worse then bin laden, hitler, the 9/11 guys, worse than mindless murderers, worse than hussein,

i heard an interview with gore vidal from 1993 or was it 1995 where he virtually predicts the current mess, not specifically but generealises about where the US was going at that time, even in the post WWII novel the naked and the dead mailer predicts the general course the US will take, Gore Vidal also mentioned that many of the religious right or christian fundamentalists in the US are so supportive of Israel, despite being anti semites on the whole, well they are so keen to have Isreal there is because apparetly they actually beleive that the biblical prophesy of christs second coming is about to occur (by about i think he and others mean within their lifetime or at least their childrens) now im no christian scholar but apparently christ will return when the people of israel are back in their homeland, what are these people on? dont they realis that if christ returns he will take one look at them and be sick and spew his guts out over his heavenly robes.

by the way i dont think the US or UK or australia went to Iraq to secure cheap oil, oil is still cheap, why is GM still making 5 litre V8 commodores? if people are willing to buy such idiotic gas guzzlers then by defenition oil is still cheap, thereare cars out there that use 4-5L/100km and still people ignore them, oil is still cheap, in slovakia most peoples hourly earnings enable them to buy about 1.5L of petrol! So after a days work they might be able to 15L odd, just enough to go to the city and back to the burbs in a stupid aussie V8.

 

[Sean K]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Thats insane,

Yep, I'm not supporting it, just commentating...

US 'poised to strike Iran'
Geoff Elliott, Washington correspondent | August 25, 2007

BOB Baer, the former Middle East CIA operative whose first book about his life inspired the oil-and-espionage thriller Syriana, is working on a new book on Iran, but says he was told by senior intelligence officials that he had better get it published in the next couple of months because things could be about to change.

Baer, in an interview with The Weekend Australian, says his contacts in the administration suggest a strategic airstrike on Iran is a real possibility in the months ahead.

"What I'm getting is a sense that their sentiment is they are going to hit the Iranians and not just because of Israel, but due to the fact that Iran is the predominant power in the Gulf and it is hostile and its power is creeping into the Gulf at every level," Baer says.

He says his contacts have told him of his book: "You better hurry up because the thesis is going to change. I told them submission is in January but they said, 'You're probably going to be too late'."

There may be a tipping point with this standoff. If Iran announce they have nukes then gloves are off as far as the US is concerned.

 

[Sean K]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

by the way i dont think the US or UK or australia went to Iraq to secure cheap oil, oil is still cheap, why is GM still making 5 litre V8 commodores?

Not sure if I agree with your premise here TB. People buy V8s for a reason beyond practicalities, IMO. The same reasons that people buy convertables and 4WDs that never go off the road. Oil 'cheap'?

 

[toc_bat]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

hi kennas

as long as cars are being made which consume an unresonable amount of fuel to the point where its pretty obvious that the buyer is not considering consumpiton of fuel as decision driving option then i think petrol is obvioulsy still too cheap for that buyer, ok yes maybe most people are thinking about mileage now except for a few blockheads to whom the v8 is still marketed,

also funny how irans power is creeping into the gulf at every level!!! how dare they! how rude and incosiderate for us!, goodness they only actually live in the gulf area what right do they have to asert their power inthir onw little area against the US and europe and everyone else who does not live there but wants their power to be asserted in the gulf instead, i dare say until this way of thinking disappears we have lot more political problems to come, not just in the gulf but everywhere else in the world,

ps "Yep, I'm not supporting it, just commentating..." yeh i know that kennas, you are a very reasonable and balanced guy by everything i have read from u so far, i reacted to the news not to you

 

[numbercruncher]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

"Syria has already received more than 1.5 million refugees and there could be no end in sight to what the Americans unleashed there. We simply can't cope anymore," a Syrian official told Reuters.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Syria-to-restricts-Iraqi-refugee-influx/2007/09/03/1188783155869.html


It just gets worse by the day, the article gos on to say that 10pc of SYrias population are Iraqi refugees. How many refugees from Iraq has the US taken i wonder ? I remeber reading not many ....

Iraq has turned out as a disaster of epic proportions i beleive the US has now been in Iraq longer than they where in WW2.

As evil as Saddam was, if they left him there (killing whomever he wished) there would be alot more people alive now and Millions still in there homes, not to mention a functioning country.

Also not to mention the Trillions spent pursuing this could of probably converted the whole planet to elec/hydro or whatever powered cars, rendering obsolete the need for "oil" security.

The US now seem stuck in a moral delemma where they cant leave, but will they eventually be forced to because of among other things budget restraints ? If they leave will Iran or others? just fill the vacuum ..... Just a giant disaster it is.

 

[Aussiejeff]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Well, of course George could cut and run from Iraq and start all over again in Iran with a "clean slate" couldn't he?

I'm sure all the US cannon fodder currently in Eye-raq would love the prospect of spending years trudging around deadly Iran.....



AJ

 

[Sean K]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

I wouldn't have thought the French to be so vocal on this. It says to me that the ball is set in motion, and one side is going to have to roll over. I can't see Iran allowing inspections etc etc. This is much more serious than Iraq IMO.

France accuses Iran of seeking nukes
Henry Samuel, Paris
September 23, 2007

FRENCH President Nicolas Sarkozy has accused Iran of seeking a nuclear bomb and urged "stronger sanctions" against Tehran.

It was the latest sign that Mr Sarkozy is positioning France as America's key European ally in tackling Tehran's nuclear ambitions.

He said France did not want a war but flatly declared in a television interview that "Iran is trying to obtain an atomic bomb.