The Gillard Government

[Calliope]

It is not surprising that Labor courted Peter Slipper as a rat. After all he has a history of being a rat, and once a rat...always a rat. I know this guy. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick him.

On Monday night, Mr Slipper released a statement saying he'd be happy to serve as deputy speaker "but certainly not on the basis of pairing my vote or guaranteeing confidence and supply to the government". Back in the early 1990s, it was his decision to rat on the Queensland Nationals to join the Liberals after the failed Joh For Canberra push that first attracted attention. Last year, it was revealed his mobile phone bill was larger than prime minister Kevin Rudd's.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-up-proceedings/story-fn59niix-1225931216148

 

[joea]

Hi.
Following is an extract from an engineer who has worked in optical fibre for 13 years. It is point 5 of a statement on NBN.

The "NBN" will be one of the largest single networks ever built on earth. There only a few companies who could do it - Japan's Nippon NTT,BT,AT&T; Deutsche Telekom etc. Even Telstra would struggle to build something on this scale. Yet we are led to believe that the same people who can't build school halls or install insulation without being ripped off are going to do it.???
Here at Telstra, we are laughing our heads off. Because when it all comes crumbling down, after they have spent $60+billion and the network is no more than 1/2 complete, it will be up to Telstra to pick up the pieces.(shhh don't tell anyone, its our secret.)
I do not subscribe to Telstra and this could be sour grapes.
Scary eh!

As for cost justification, that will not happen because it cannot be cost justified.
Cheers

 

[Mofra]

So you don't remember Mr No? (Pig Beazley?)

So much grist for the "leftists have no objectivity" mill.

I mean all of us political animals are a bit hypocritical, but the left takes it to new, unheard of levels.

Waynel, you're forgetting we're different categories - I'm a swinging voter, not someone who votes entirely on idealogical grounds

Beazley is someone I never voted for, however my reasons were more due to incompetence as Defence Minister rather than his blanket opposition to almost everything (which, even the impartial Liberal idealogues have to agree doesn't quite reaches Abbott's level).

I do find amusing the right-idealogues' justification for everything Abbott does is simply, "others from other parties have done it before". Isn't leadership about treading your own path if need be?

 

[Calliope]

Gillard accuses Abbott of being a "wrecker". It is not surprising, with her background, that she has adopted the Stalinist terminology.

With Stalin at the controls, technology was a "god", feverishly embraced for the Party in the name of Marx, Engles, and Lenin. Although many projects were successfully completed and moved the Soviet empire into modern times, goals often exceeded the available resources. Those who dared point this out were called "wreckers", accused of treason, and punished. By accusing "wreckers" of thwarting the plans of the State, Stalin was able to divert attention from the real reasons for the failure of his schemes

http://cidc.library.cornell.edu/dof/sovunion/captioned/coll_ind.htm

 

[bellenuit]

Gillard accuses Abbott of being a "wrecker". It is not surprising, with her background, that she has adopted the Stalinist terminology.

With Stalin at the controls, technology was a "god", feverishly embraced for the Party in the name of Marx, Engles, and Lenin. Although many projects were successfully completed and moved the Soviet empire into modern times, goals often exceeded the available resources. Those who dared point this out were called "wreckers", accused of treason, and punished. By accusing "wreckers" of thwarting the plans of the State, Stalin was able to divert attention from the real reasons for the failure of his schemes

http://cidc.library.cornell.edu/dof/sovunion/captioned/coll_ind.htm

It seems the ABC has signed up to Labor's agenda, by reinforcing the message Labor wants to get out.

When Abbott appointed Turnbill as shadow communications minister, Abbott stated that he appointed Turnbill to hold the government to account on the NBN. The new 24 hour ABC channel for most of that morning scrolled across the screen "Abbott orders Turnbill to wreck NBN" or similar words.

 

[Julia]

It is not surprising that Labor courted Peter Slipper as a rat. After all he has a history of being a rat, and once a rat...always a rat. I know this guy. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick him.

He can also claim the distinction of being the biggest spender in the Parliament. His mobile phone bill was more than Kevin Rudd's and he has spent more on taxis and other transport than any other MP.

 

[IFocus]

Hi.
Following is an extract from an engineer who has worked in optical fibre for 13 years. It is point 5 of a statement on NBN.

The "NBN" will be one of the largest single networks ever built on earth. There only a few companies who could do it - Japan's Nippon NTT,BT,AT&T; Deutsche Telekom etc. Even Telstra would struggle to build something on this scale. Yet we are led to believe that the same people who can't build school halls or install insulation without being ripped off are going to do it.???
Here at Telstra, we are laughing our heads off. Because when it all comes crumbling down, after they have spent $60+billion and the network is no more than 1/2 complete, it will be up to Telstra to pick up the pieces.(shhh don't tell anyone, its our secret.)
I do not subscribe to Telstra and this could be sour grapes.
Scary eh!

As for cost justification, that will not happen because it cannot be cost justified.
Cheers

This was discredited over on Whirlpool as being rubbish.

 

[IFocus]

He can also claim the distinction of being the biggest spender in the Parliament. His mobile phone bill was more than Kevin Rudd's and he has spent more on taxis and other transport than any other MP.

The bit that rattled Abbott was the independents all voted as a block for Slipper to sound a warning to Abbott.

Labor managed to claw back some ground on the pairing issue now I wonder how often Harry Jenkins will feel a need to be missing from the chair to give Labor an extra vote.

 

[wayneL]

Waynel, you're forgetting we're different categories - I'm a swinging voter, not someone who votes entirely on idealogical grounds

No we aren't. If you will recall, I was an outspoken critic of Johnny Rotten and the putrid state of the gu'mint under the Liberals.

Yes I have an ideological ideal, but it ain't either of the main parties. It's just that I'm particularly agin SD.

 

[joea]

IFocus.

Try This.
Point 1. Fibre optic cable has a maximum theoretical lifespan of 25 years when installed in conduit. Over time, the glass actually degrades(long story), and eventually it can't do it's bouncing of light any more. But when you install fibre outside on overhead wiring, then the fibre degrades much quicker due to temperature variations and solar/cosmic radiation. THE GLASS IN THIS CASE WILL LAST NO LONGER THAN 15 YEARS.
Fibre is not the best technology for the last mile.
In today's Australian Carlos Slim Helu at the Forbes Conferance makes a statement on the $43 billion broadband installation by the Gillard Government.
I suggest you read it.

In todays Australian a spokes person for Conroy says it will last 30 - 50 years.
Cheers

 

[bellenuit]

One of the issues I haven't seen discussed is the imbalance between rolling out the NBN to rural areas first, as demanded by the independents, and even suggested by Stephen Forbes yesterday and only providing it later in the cities.

I would guess that 99% of web hosts that are not overseas based are in the cities. If speeds in the cities are only a fraction of that available to rural areas, what good is it to rural users if their links support 100Mbps, but the web hosts they want to access can only pump the data to them at a fraction of that speed?

Obviously NBN would give access where there was no access before, but surely wireless access makes more sense for rural areas until the locations of most web hosts are first installed.

 

[boofhead]

joea: Can you provide some sources for that information on fibre lifetimes?

bellenuit: I don't understand your point. Web sites and ISPs already use fibre for connections.

Fast connections allow you to operate like how we adapt to use PCs now - multitasking. Doing multiple things often with little impact on other things.

Not everyone with fibre will be using maximum speeds. NBNCo has documents on what sort of plans ISPs will have access to including 25 mbit which is close to ADSL2+ in ideal situations. Cable can go faster.

Not everyone uses the internet at the same time to access the same few sites. Many of the major fibre backbones have plenty of space capacity at the moment with upgrades in planning. The major international submarine operators give details on bandwidth currently available. Internode offer up maps on how they operate their network including capacity they have paid for.

 

[Julia]

The bit that rattled Abbott was the independents all voted as a block for Slipper to sound a warning to Abbott.

Labor managed to claw back some ground on the pairing issue now I wonder how often Harry Jenkins will feel a need to be missing from the chair to give Labor an extra vote.

I understand Mr Jenkins was even today - the first sitting day - absent for a period, allowing Mr Slipper to take the chair. Hardly an auspicious beginning if that's true.

IFocus.
In today's Australian Carlos Slim Helu at the Forbes Conferance makes a statement on the $43 billion broadband installation by the Gillard Government.
I suggest you read it.

I heard this man who is apparently the world's richest person (move over Gates et al) and who has made his fortune in this field, interviewed on ABC "PM" this evening. He was (politely) very critical and said a mix of technologies would be far more appropriate.

 

[IFocus]

IFocus.

Try This.
Point 1. Fibre optic cable has a maximum theoretical lifespan of 25 years when installed in conduit. Over time, the glass actually degrades(long story), and eventually it can't do it's bouncing of light any more. But when you install fibre outside on overhead wiring, then the fibre degrades much quicker due to temperature variations and solar/cosmic radiation. THE GLASS IN THIS CASE WILL LAST NO LONGER THAN 15 YEARS.
Fibre is not the best technology for the last mile.
In today's Australian Carlos Slim Helu at the Forbes Conferance makes a statement on the $43 billion broadband installation by the Gillard Government.
I suggest you read it.

In todays Australian a spokes person for Conroy says it will last 30 - 50 years.
Cheers

Might be more for the other NBN thread

Fiber has been used in trans ocean / countries for some time the life span / fault rates are nothing like the doomsayers are making out also nothing like I have experienced in industry.

The last mile is an argument worth having but wireless wont be the answer unless you like being microwaved or having a tower in your back yard some thing the wireless mob forget to tell everyone.

Read the bit on Slim and would'nt argue against him on a business case.

NBN is major infrastructure that goes beyond $ IMHO

An example is the Perth to Mandurah rail line long argued by Liberals as no go due to the business case not adding up.

Now the rail line is in (Labor thanks to Alana) the social impact benefits are immeasurable


BTW have traveled quite a bit of Mexico where Slim is from and holds business interests its an economic mess.

There is some really good discussions over on Whirlpool that covers a good range of the issues thrown up just might take a few days to read it all

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/100

 

[Logique]

The politicization of the NBN is the real barrier in my view. Ridiculous polarization and extremes of rhetoric. The accusation '..you're against broadband..' as ridiculous as '..there is no place for fibre optic cable..'.

Personally, no problem with a spine of fibre optic cable, and expanded within our means. But until it is within our means, to reach the home, why not allow a mix of technologies and some market competition? We need a reasonable time frame and a reasonable price. And a hedge against changing technologies.

I'd like Labor to deliver a good NBN, at a good price, but it's worrying that they seem to be relishing it as a political opportunity.

Lateline last night a good case in point, '..I'm running this interview Malcolm..', said Jones to Turnbull, who struggled in vain to get a full sentence out. Stephen Conroy on the other hand was allowed, with scant interruption, at length to criticize Turnbull.

I reckon Tony Jones is running hard to be Kerry O'Briens's successor.

 

[Knobby22]

I saw the same interview and didn't see what you saw. Methinks it is where you are sitting. I am a swing voter.

I don't see anything wrong in principle with installing a fibre network. I mean when the post office installed a copper network 80 years ago I don't think there were people saying it should only go to where it would make money and should be run by private enterprise.

Maybe there were people saying that but everyone got connected. We believed in egalitarianism then.

We spend billions on roads and no one bats an eyelid.

The big question in my mind is how efficinetly it will be done. Will Labor tender out the work properly and not let special interests rip off the public.
I am not so confident that they will succeed in this but at least they aren't the Vic or NSW state goverments who are hopelessly conflicted and incompetant.

If Federal Labour fail to run this properly, then they will deserve to lose the next election.

The Liberals have been hopeless in getting their heads around the issue and they need Malcolm. They also need some "tech-heads" as Abbott called them in Parliament. Where is the modern day Monash? All we have now is idealogues with lawyer training. (rant ends)

 

[Mofra]

No we aren't. If you will recall, I was an outspoken critic of Johnny Rotten and the putrid state of the gu'mint under the Liberals.

Yes I have an ideological ideal, but it ain't either of the main parties. It's just that I'm particularly agin SD.

Fair enough - I have a sneaking suspician that despite the banter, we voted in much the same (or even identical) manner

 

[Mofra]

I saw the same interview and didn't see what you saw. Methinks it is where you are sitting. I am a swing voter.

I don't see anything wrong in principle with installing a fibre network. I mean when the post office installed a copper network 80 years ago I don't think there were people saying it should only go to where it would make money and should be run by private enterprise.

Maybe there were people saying that but everyone got connected. We believed in egalitarianism then.

We spend billions on roads and no one bats an eyelid.

The big question in my mind is how efficinetly it will be done. Will Labor tender out the work properly and not let special interests rip off the public.
I am not so confident that they will succeed in this but at least they aren't the Vic or NSW state goverments who are hopelessly conflicted and incompetant.

If Federal Labour fail to run this properly, then they will deserve to lose the next election.

The Liberals have been hopeless in getting their heads around the issue and they need Malcolm. They also need some "tech-heads" as Abbott called them in Parliament. Where is the modern day Monash? All we have now is idealogues with lawyer training. (rant ends)

Hard to disagree with anything you've raised there. Thankfully by creating NBN Co they will avoid many of the pitfalls of the state government run pink bats fiasco, by handing over cash to beaurocrats who couldn't organise a chook raffle.

I do get the feeling the whole project will be run in the manner of the Melbourne city loop rail stations - the necessity and method of delivery will be questioned and scrutinised during the rollout process, but future generations will be glad the network was established even if the rollout is poorly run.

It will build some redundancy into the system which we lack now - "Joe the backhoe operator" basically took out all of Optus' Brisbane communciations network with a single optical line cut in Oct 08 IIRC.

 

[Logique]

I saw the same interview and didn't see what you saw. Methinks it is where you are sitting. I am a swing voter.

Respectfully disagree, Jones has form here. Watch Q&A if you don't believe me. In particular note the makeup of the panels.

Also I haven't forgotten his two-person lynch mob (himself and George Monbiot) of Professor Plimer, who, as a scientist, had the temerity to disagree with a journalist on the subject of climate change.

However I'm reasonably sympathetic to the rest of what you said. With the NBN, let's have no 'rule in-rule out' games. Less politics, more broadband. But no repeat of the BER.

 

[IFocus]

Just out of interest is there ever been a major infrastructure project built on time and under budget by any government?

I know here in the west in private industry, mining, oil and gas its actually not that common.