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The future of energy generation and storage

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Drove Broken Hill to Port Augusta today coming through and down Horrocks Pass my electrical brain went WTF (actually said what a beautiful thing ?)
looking at all the wind turbines and solar complete with HV lines every where.
Good breeze today should keep the caravan lights on tonight… diesel heater for backup if the breeze stops ??
 
This girl can really talk but she's produced another great video on CSP vs PV. Does CSP have a future ? She gives some good reasons why it could.

 
Great info from the 10 min mark, as we say on this thread non of this will be a one size fits all, so everything has to be considered, rather than at the moment ideology being the most important criteria.
Also every energy source has to be critiqued on its performance and data, not on its assumed or projected performance, here is an article on recent analysis of CSP that is in service.
This sort of analysis cuts through the white noise and vested interests, worth a read if only to realise that CSP is possible especially in hybrid form ATM.
Reason being, in hybrid form where gas is the back up heat source, it basically becomes at call generation, that could feasibly replace coal even now.
www.nature.com

Techno-economic performances of future concentrating solar power plants in Australia - Humanities and Social Sciences Communications

The prediction of the techno-economic performances of future concentrated solar power (CSP) solar tower (ST) with thermal energy storage (TES) plants is challenging. Nevertheless, this information is fundamental to energy policymakers. This work aims to fill the knowledge gap regarding...
www.nature.com www.nature.com
 
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SirRumpole said:
Farmers up in arms over (or under) transmission lines.
Click to expand...
The big problem is the usual suspects preying on those without knowledge of all this stuff and scaring the **** out of them.

If you're unhappy about transmission lines then why on earth would you want to add a battery to that? As a static object that simply sits there, it's really quite a bizarre idea that someone would want it specifically in their area. Well, it is unless there's a game being played...... ;)

The whole of society seems to have become rather entitled these days. Whatever happened to the greater good?
 
Last edited:
Smurf1976 said:
The whole of society seems to have become rather entitled these days. Whatever happened to the greater good?
Click to expand...
That is becoming a huge problem in Australia, the days of 'when the going gets tough, the tough get going'.
Seem to be replaced by 'when the going gets tough, whinge, complain, say it is all too hard, untill someone listens and makes takes up your cause'.
This electrical system, is going to end up like W.A, now the taxpayer is paying the Indian owned mine, to dig it up and supply it cheap, to the Japanese owned coal power station, ironic when you think the Government owned plant that could run on gas is being demolished as we speak.
Loonies running the loony bin, no wonder McGowan jumped ship. Lol
 
We've fallen a long way, at least in terms of planning and the desire to serve the public, from the days of projects like this:



Total capacity of the station on that day of its official opening was just 15MW, comprised of a single 30MW machine with only one boiler in operation at that point. When completed "A" station was 3 x 30MW using six boilers all up.

During the first half of the 1960's "B" station was progressively commissioned right next to "A" station. B consisted of 4 x 60MW and six boilers so 240 MW in total.

1985 another new station commenced operation immediately to the south, 2 x 250 MW, bringing total site capacity to 830 MW. Later tweaks brought this station up to 2 x 273MW.

All gone and demolished now and whilst I'm not in any way against technical progress, the bit about serving the public seems to be completely lost these days unfortunately.
 
Smurf1976 said:
We've fallen a long way, at least in terms of planning and the desire to serve the public, from the days of projects like this:



Total capacity of the station on that day of its official opening was just 15MW, comprised of a single 30MW machine with only one boiler in operation at that point. When completed "A" station was 3 x 30MW using six boilers all up.

During the first half of the 1960's "B" station was progressively commissioned right next to "A" station. B consisted of 4 x 60MW and six boilers so 240 MW in total.

1985 another new station commenced operation immediately to the south, 2 x 250 MW, bringing total site capacity to 830 MW. Later tweaks brought this station up to 2 x 273MW.

All gone and demolished now and whilst I'm not in any way against technical progress, the bit about serving the public seems to be completely lost these days unfortunately.
Click to expand...

And this is borne out by the problems trying to get a wave generator going in the Kimberly.
From ABC News
$375 million project to utilise one of the world's biggest tides to produce electricity has hit a stalemate with the federal government after decade-long delays.

Key points:​

  • Decade long delays to Derby Tidal Project continue
  • The federal government waits on further information about environmental risks
  • The future of the project remains uncertain with Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Laws in play

The Derby Tidal Project, headed by Tidal Energy Australia, was to be located at Doctor's Creek near the outback town in WA's Kimberley region.

Designs for the project involve utilising Derby's 11-metre tides – one of the largest in the world — to produce up to 40 megawatts of electricity.

In its proposal, the project offered a 120-year life, lower electricity costs and renewable energy options for the region.

But decade-long delays with the federal government have thrown plans off course.

Managing Director Brian Rourke said technicalities had held up progress.
"They keep saying they haven't got enough information to make an informed decision, but they won't tell us what they need to make an informed decision."

Environment advocacy groups claim endangered marine species in the area and the risk to sensitive river structures could be the reason behind the setback.

However, Mr Rourke said the necessary checks and assessments had been provided.

"The Commonwealth don't seem to want to accept the monitoring study," he said.

"The federal government's always saying they want to go for renewable energy.
Click to expand...





The problem is, its always in someome elses backyard.

Mick
 
mullokintyre said:
And this is borne out by the problems trying to get a wave generator going in the Kimberly.
From ABC News






The problem is, its always in someome elses backyard.

Mick
Click to expand...

The environment and cultural heritage, the biggest barriers to providing cheap and reliable power(and other infrastructure).

Neither should be dismissed, but there must be some mechanism to air the issues then resolve them within a reasonable time frame, with the government being able to make the final decision without having others dragging the cases through the courts ad infinitum.
 
SirRumpole said:
The environment and cultural heritage, the biggest barriers to providing cheap and reliable power(and other infrastructure).

Neither should be dismissed, but there must be some mechanism to air the issues then resolve them within a reasonable time frame, with the government being able to make the final decision without having others dragging the cases through the courts ad infinitum.
Click to expand...
This is Australia, where the ones who shout the loudest gain the ear and the meek shall inherit the bill. ? ?
The problem is the meek is getting extremely restless IMO, time will tell, ATM there are several issues with wobbly wheels. ;)
 
Video is self-explanatory.

I'll just add that the site is about 15km north-west of the Adelaide CBD, so the outskirts of the metropolitan area, and has long been a power generation hub with the Torrens Island A (closed 2021), Torrens Island B (75% operational), Barker Inlet (fully operational) and Quarantine (fully operational) power stations also physically located on Torrens Island.

Quarantine being owned by Origin. The others and the battery all owned by AGL.

ElectraNet owns and operates the transmission network only (does not own any generation).

Technically the battery is 250MW with 250MWh storage so 1 hour at maximum discharge rate but that's expandable to 1000MWh storage so 4 hours at constant maximum discharge. At this stage AGL haven't committed to any expansion but the design and site layout facilitates that being added at a future time.

AGL have publicly stated the budget for the project in its present form is $180 million. Bearing in mind it's a commercial investment, that is it's not underwritten or guaranteed by government etc.



And here's the transformer referred to in that video on its way from Melbourne. We still make things like this in Australia yes:

 
Last edited:
Smurf1976 said:
Video is self-explanatory.

I'll just add that the site is about 15km north-west of the Adelaide CBD, so the outskirts of the metropolitan area, and has long been a power generation hub with the Torrens Island A (closed 2021), Torrens Island B (75% operational), Barker Inlet (fully operational) and Quarantine (fully operational) power stations also physically located on Torrens Island.

Quarantine being owned by Origin. The others and the battery all owned by AGL.

ElectraNet owns and operates the transmission network only (does not own any generation).

Technically the battery is 250MW with 250MWh storage so 1 hour at maximum discharge rate but that's expandable to 1000MWh storage so 4 hours at constant maximum discharge. At this stage AGL haven't committed to any expansion but the design and site layout facilitates that being added at a future time.

AGL have publicly stated the budget for the project in its present form is $180 million. Bearing in mind it's a commercial investment, that is it's not underwritten or guaranteed by government etc.



And here's the transformer referred to in that video on its way from Melbourne. We still make things like this in Australia yes:

Click to expand...

I wonder on what assumptions AGL have been working to get a return on investment on this installation.
Do they get some sort of gaurantee for price/output over time to make it worthwhile, or do they take pot luck and hope there is enough shortage to allow them to pump storage back into the grid at high prices.
Mick
 
mullokintyre said:
I wonder on what assumptions AGL have been working to get a return on investment on this installation.
Do they get some sort of gaurantee for price/output over time to make it worthwhile, or do they take pot luck and hope there is enough shortage to allow them to pump storage back into the grid at high prices.
Mick
Click to expand...
The first entrants will be able to sign up as much storage as they can put in, it will come later when getting guaranteed will become difficult, for now AGL will be killing it IMO.
A bit like solar on the roof 12-13 years ago we in W.A were getting 47cents feed in tariff, then as more went in the feed in price dropped, now it is just about 0.
 
You just have to read the media to keep abreast of the transition, obviously the media is right on top of the issue. ?
FEB 2023:
www.theguardian.com

Australia at risk of electricity supply shortages as renewable projects lag behind coal plant closures

Successive La Niñas have eased demand but, with many renewable and storage projects now delayed, the energy market operator has revised its projections
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

March 2023:
www.smh.com.au

Power bills to rise by up to 31 per cent while gas shortages loom

East coast residents will be hit with huge electricity bill increases as authorities warn that dwindling gas supplies could plunge the market deeper into turmoil.
www.smh.com.au www.smh.com.au

April 2023:
www.theguardian.com

Record renewables help bring down Australia’s energy prices and emissions

Energy dynamics report finds clean energy is displacing fossil fuels and sending carbon emissions from the sector to new lows
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

May 2023:
www.zembl.com.au

The outlook for energy prices in 2023: Is Australia facing a crisis?

What can small business owners expect to pay for energy over the coming 12 months? What are the behind-the-scenes drivers of energy costs in Australia? Here’s our energy price outlook for 2023.
www.zembl.com.au www.zembl.com.au

June 2023
www.abc.net.au

Power prices to skyrocket in eastern states as energy chaos fallout hits hard

Some households are facing power price hikes of up to 100 per cent as the "long tail" of last year's energy crisis hits home hard, according to consumer advocates.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

www.mercomindia.com

Australia’s Renewable Capacity Addition Fell by Nearly a Quarter in 2022 - Mercom India

Australia’s renewable energy industry completed 20 large-scale projects, adding 2,257 MW of new capacity in 2022, which is 23.6% lower than in 2021, according to Clean Energy Council. The...
www.mercomindia.com www.mercomindia.com
 
Origin energy, which has already committed to spending $600million to develop a 460MW battery at the Eraring site, and now it says it will replicate this two battery across the rest of the NEM, although it will likely increase the battery size to 77MW before it starts on other areas.
From Evil Murdoch press
“We are building a 460MW, two-hour battery at Eraring and we will probably replicate that in every state and we will probably do that as fast as we can execute,” Mr Calabria told Free Electrons 2023, a global energy start-up program held in Sydney this year.

“We have a market that is probably the most attractive for the spread between high and low prices on a daily basis. You’re moving from zero to $200, and on a cloudy day it can be $200 the whole day. We have a market that is extremely dynamic and that represents a great opportunity for us.”
Australia’s wholesale electricity price – the cost of generating electricity – can swing wildly throughout the day, primarily due to the country’s high uptake of rooftop solar. During sunny days, the wholesale price is often zero and can sometimes be negative. A battery could be charged during this period and an operator receive a fee for doing so. The battery would then be discharged when the sun sets and the cost of wholesale electricity rises.

Mr Calabria said Origin’s immediate battery focus was on Eraring, with an expansion of the battery likely before turning to other sites.

Origin has said the capacity of the battery at Eraring could be increased to 700MW.
Click to expand...
Like the AGL battery site, I would love to see the economic models that underpin this decision, and what volumes of electricity they expect 9or are guaranteed), and at what prices.

Edited when I did some quick calculations.
I have read that on average, there are around 70 days in Australia when the sun does not shine and the wind does not blow enough to require secondary intervention into the market.
According to the article, the 460MW can supply power for two hours.
A quick calculation of the return gives a tad under 13 million a year.
At that rate, it will take about 35 years to get the return on capital invested, without including any profits.
There may be other sales at lower values, say overnight when the sun is not shining, but there will also be maintenance costs, and maybe financing costs to take into account.
I am certain they know what they are doing.

Mick
 
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mullokintyre said:
Origin energy, which has already committed to spending $600million to develop a 460MW battery at the Eraring site, and now it says it will replicate this two battery across the rest of the NEM, although it will likely increase the battery size to 77MW before it starts on other areas.
From Evil Murdoch press

Like the AGL battery site, I would love to see the economic models that underpin this decision, and what volumes of electricity they expect 9or are guaranteed), and at what prices.
Mick
Click to expand...

IMHO what we need most is 'deep storage' and no one seems to be putting their hands up for that.

Apart from Snowy Hydro 2.0 that is.
 

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