The future of energy generation and storage

[Smurf1976]

We already use it in the Bass link, @Smurf1976 will give us the voltage/ current details, no doubt.

400kV nominal rating 478MW continuous at the receiving end.

Loss is 4.4% at full load, considerably less at lower loading.

Physical connection runs from Loy Yang (Victoria) to George Town (Tasmania) with connection to the 500kV AC network on the Victorian side and to the 220kV AC network in Tasmania. In both cases this is the core transmission "backbone" in each state.

No longer the case but it was the longest undersea power cable in the world when originally built (construction 2003 - 05).

There's also two onshore DC links in Australia:

Murraylink (Berri (SA) - Mildura (Victoria)) is 150kV and 220MW capacity. Due to transmission limitations on the AC network in Victoria full capacity is frequently unachievable in practice indeed a situation of forced export Vic > SA via Murraylink is common as the only means of achieving full output from solar farms in NSW Victoria. AC connection is to the 132kV network on the SA side and 220kV on the Victorian side.

Directlink (Bungalora (Qld) - Mullumbimby (NSW) is 80kV and 180 MW. AC connection is at 110kV on the Qld side and 132kV on the NSW side.

The SA - Vic and NSW - Qld DC lines are electrically parallel to dual circuit AC interconnection between those states. The AC lines connect to different physical locations, and at different voltages (275kV - 500kV for SA - Vic and 330kV for NSW - Qld) but ultimately they're electrically in parallel to the DC albeit via various transformers and other transmission line within each state. In contrast Basslink is the sole interconnection between Tasmania and anywhere else.

 

[sptrawler]

There you go @SirRumpole we have not only know about the technology, but have been using it.
It comes back to cost, if we could say, everyone in Australia takes out a $100,000 loan to pay for it, we will go renewables by 2050, that would be great it probably would be possible.
I would put my hand up, but @basilio would have a heart attack and so would all the mortgage holders up to their eyeballs in Melbourne, Canberra and Sydney.
Yet they are the ones screaming out for faster change, their kids are marching in the streets and gluing themselves to the road.
The rest of us just get on with paying for it and listening to the crap.

 

[basilio]

There you go @SirRumpole we have not only know about the technology, but have been using it.
It comes back to cost, if we could say, everyone in Australia takes out a $100,000 loan to pay for it, we will go renewables by 2050, that would be great it probably would be possible.
I would put my hand up, but @basilio would have a heart attack.

Ha Ha.. Yep reworking our energy system to become renewable will cost a bomb. Huge investment of capital.

Do I have $100K to spare ? Sure and if that was the price to pay fora certain result I would do it in a heartbeat. But realistically what about the 60-70% of the population who couldn't raise or service 100k if their life depended on it ? And in any case in which universe did renewing the energy system of a country come down to a head tax on every person ? Doesn't work like that does it ?

The interesting thing is that COVID seemed to show us that Governments can pull hundreds of billions of dollars out of thin air - when push comes to shove. But I don't believe money as such solves the problem. If we ever make this happen it will be because clever, appropriate, renewable energy solutions will properly implemented.

 

[rcw1]

Mount Isa was a blast from the past industrial town right next to active stacks punching out plume the drive from Isa to Cloncurry through the range was really good but apparently Mount Isa has the highest crime rate in QLD ??

Hi IFocus
Some trivia:
The Isa is a great place. Back in the 70's and 80's the city produced great Foley Shield teams that won the North Queensland Foley Shield, beating much more populated cities like Townsville. The Foley Shield Rugby League competition is still played today but with reduced teams.

Crime is certainly an issue in contemporary times, Mt Isa certainly having their problems, according to the papers.

Having said this, was just reading the other day about an unsolved murder case of the 1978 Spear Creek triple killings. Cold Case detectives identified an alleged offender and the coppers charged him, more than 40 years after the murder victims bodies were found. However, the case got tossed in the Supreme Court. The Police allege the trio of friends were gunned down in the bush at Spear Creek, outside Mount Isa, in October 1978.

Great mining town.

Have a very nice night.

Kind regards
rcw1

 

[sptrawler]

Ha Ha.. Yep reworking our energy system to become renewable will cost a bomb. Huge investment of capital.

Do I have $100K to spare ? Sure and if that was the price to pay fora certain result I would do it in a heartbeat. But realistically what about the 60-70% of the population who couldn't raise or service 100k if their life depended on it ? And in any case in which universe did renewing the energy system of a country come down to a head tax on every person ? Doesn't work like that does it ?

Yes it does, one way or another the cost has to be carried by the consumer, it isn't a charity service, but it is an essential service.

The interesting thing is that COVID seemed to show us that Governments can pull hundreds of billions of dollars out of thin air - when push comes to shove. But I don't believe money as such solves the problem. If we ever make this happen it will be because clever, appropriate, renewable energy solutions will properly implemented.

And we are now paying for that pulling hundreds of billions of dollars out of thin air, the Government doesn't sell cars to make money, the Govt doesn't knit cardigans to make money, it increases taxes to make money.

Now how does it increase taxes without losing votes? It increases wages, it increases handouts, it increases Govt charges, which is inflationary. Inflation is good for Government, not so good for the public and not so good for the overall economy.

Inflation means that the increased wages is an increase in tax revenue and an increase in bracket creep, where people move up into the next tax bracket, so they pay even more tax.

The welfare handouts mean more money goes goes into spending and GST increases, also Govt service charges get paid.

The only way the Government makes money, is by reduced spending, or increasing the tax base, that's it.
So how does it increase the tax take? By inflation, it increases the amount of money coming in and decreases the value of the money in circulation.

I'm surprised if you are a self funded person, you haven't got your head around that, at the moment self funded people are the most vulnerable because they don't earn anything only live off their savings which are buying less and less.

The only good outcome is the younger generation, who constantly bag off about the older generation who have saved their money, will end up reaping what they sow, nothing.

 

[SirRumpole]

This analysis could go in a number of threads, but it's a good expose of how concessions to the electricity industry are ensuring that consumers continue to get ripped off by the power companies.

Fossil fuel prices have collapsed. So why are we paying more for electricity?

Inflation is creating inflation. Unlike previous episodes where higher prices sparked wage breakouts, a large portion of our inflation is being driven by interest rate hikes, writes Ian Verrender.

www.abc.net.au

 

[sptrawler]

This analysis could go in a number of threads, but it's a good expose of how concessions to the electricity industry are ensuring that consumers continue to get ripped off by the power companies.

Fossil fuel prices have collapsed. So why are we paying more for electricity?

Inflation is creating inflation. Unlike previous episodes where higher prices sparked wage breakouts, a large portion of our inflation is being driven by interest rate hikes, writes Ian Verrender.

www.abc.net.au

Add to that, the fact the Government requires the private generators to change their generation over to renewables, which costs money.
Oh what a mess and another example of why you shouldn't sell essential services.

 

[sptrawler]

I Was wondering when this would happen, there is a lot of land to be covered by solar, someone will have to pay. How much this will add to the cost of solar farms is yet to be worked out, I wonder if the existing solar farms have some form of contract with the traditional land owners, if not one would guess it is only a matter of time.
Great project proposed for the Lake Argyle hydro plant, hopefully it comes to fruition.

Indigenous groups take majority ownership of $3b green export project in Australian first

Aboriginal groups hold some form of ownership over about half of Australia's landmass — and observers say the country's energy transition cannot happen without them.

www.abc.net.au

 

[IFocus]

Hi IFocus
Some trivia:
The Isa is a great place. Back in the 70's and 80's the city produced great Foley Shield teams that won the North Queensland Foley Shield, beating much more populated cities like Townsville. The Foley Shield Rugby League competition is still played today but with reduced teams.

Crime is certainly an issue in contemporary times, Mt Isa certainly having their problems, according to the papers.

Having said this, was just reading the other day about an unsolved murder case of the 1978 Spear Creek triple killings. Cold Case detectives identified an alleged offender and the coppers charged him, more than 40 years after the murder victims bodies were found. However, the case got tossed in the Supreme Court. The Police allege the trio of friends were gunned down in the bush at Spear Creek, outside Mount Isa, in October 1978.

Great mining town.

Have a very nice night.

Kind regards
rcw1

Thanks for that rcw1 I was unkind having worked on the Kwinana industrial strip for some time in a chemical plant during which we gased all the companies around us.
I also spent way too much time working in mining towns over the years so well appreciate the salt the earths that inhabit them.

Thanks for the insight

Cheers

 

[Smurf1976]

This analysis could go in a number of threads, but it's a good expose of how concessions to the electricity industry are ensuring that consumers continue to get ripped off by the power companies.

My view is it comes down to far more fundamental problems in the energy industry. Even if fuel prices went to literally zero we'd still have high prices at the consumer level since fuel isn't where most of the money's going.

Much broader reform is required but the big problem, politically, is who's responsible for the mess in the first place. Keating was the mastermind behind it, Howard put it into practice, and both are giants of their respective parties held in mostly high regard and both still alive today. Neither Labor nor Liberal is ready to throw their legacy under the bus.

The funny bit being Keating's first job, at the age of 14, was with Sydney County Council electricity. Given he left and went to work for a union, then came up with radical reforms to the electricity industry decades later as Treasurer and later PM, I've always assumed he wasn't too impressed with the SCC.

 

[Smurf1976]

Sydney County Council electricity

On the subject of which, if only this commercial was still true.

Or for that matter, if anyone making TV commercials still had a sense of humour.....

 

[Smurf1976]

SCC always had the most over the top advertising in the industry back in those days.

Despite seemingly spending a fortune on ads, they still managed to sell electricity for the equivalent of 20.3 cents / kWh today after taking inflation into account.

Actual prices today are approximately double that. That's despite better technology and so on. So much for "progress".

Another one:

 

[sptrawler]

Well in W.A, in 10 years, we have gone from an very safe, secure, understressed system, to running on a knifes edge apparently.
All to appease a narrative, rather than just adopt an orderly sensible transition, well everyone gets what they deserve.
Another reason McGowan has left the building, I would guess.

 

[SirRumpole]

SCC always had the most over the top advertising in the industry back in those days.

Despite seemingly spending a fortune on ads, they still managed to sell electricity for the equivalent of 20.3 cents / kWh today after taking inflation into account.

Actual prices today are approximately double that. That's despite better technology and so on. So much for "progress".

Another one:

I wonder why they had to advertise at all being that they were a monopoly ?

 

[Smurf1976]

I wonder why they had to advertise at all being that they were a monopoly ?

There's actually a few reasons:

Firstly in the context of residential, they never really were a monopoly. The only supplier of electricity that's true but, sticking to Sydney as the example, AGL was actively promoting mains natural gas, Elgas were actively pushing LPG and so on. Given that ~80% of household electricity use is heating, cooking and hot water gas is a serious competitor for most of it.

Second is that when it comes to business, the various "monopoly" utilities were always fiercely competitive when it came to attracting energy-intensive industry to their respective states. Cheap and reliable electricity was one way to get industry to build in one place rather than another. That went to considerable lengths at times.

Third and the big one, the industry was coming under attack at that point (mid-1980's) when those ads were running. Between the half abandoned Newport project in Victoria, the major tensions with unions in Vic and Qld, the scrapped Lower Gordon scheme in Tasmania, the Ziedler enquiry and a general perception from government that the industry needed "reforming". Plus in the specific case of NSW the serious supply shortfall of 1981 had battered public confidence somewhat.

Hence the advertising tended to focus on one of two things. It either pushed electricity as economical and specifically mentioned the big uses at home where it competed with gas, or it glorified business and industry and the electricity industry's role in making it all happen. Hence baths, car factories, big buildings and so on.

If there's one lesson that came out of all that, it's that engineers aren't much good at politics. In all cases they assumed facts and figures and "rational" arguments would win the debate and in all cases they lost to ideology and "wordy" arguments.

Ultimately though the sequence of events already underway at that point is what lead to where we are today with a great many things. Not just with energy, though that's certainly one of them, but the overall economic structure, the housing situation, the demise of manufacturing and so on were all in progress at that point, the chain of events had already commenced it's just that most hadn't realised at the time.

 

[Smurf1976]

Lake Argyle hydro

Another potential use for that resource would be to use it in conjunction with solar to power Darwin.

Not all but a decent portion of the transmission already exists. Would need a major line built but it's possible.....

 

[SirRumpole]

Second is that when it comes to business, the various "monopoly" utilities were always fiercely competitive when it came to attracting energy-intensive industry to their respective states. Cheap and reliable electricity was one way to get industry to build in one place rather than another. That went to considerable lengths at times.

Exactly, which is why we all had chea p power for decades, the suppliers had an interest in keeping prices down, not puttIng them up.

Could It happen again ? Maybe, Qld and WA still own their generators and Vic is making noises about taking theirs over again so maybe the other states may follow suit. It may be the best way out of this mess if that happens.

 

[sptrawler]

Another potential use for that resource would be to use it in conjunction with solar to power Darwin.

Not all but a decent portion of the transmission already exists. Would need a major line built but it's possible.....

There wouldnt be a lot of up front money in that, it would be a public service.
This way everyones happy the custodians get money, the private company gets a hydro station and access to a swath of land close by, a no brainer. Lol

 

[mullokintyre]

Vic is making noises about taking theirs over again so maybe the other states may follow suit. I

At this stage, all Victoria can do is make noises and debt.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

At this stage, all Victoria can do is make noises and debt.
Mick

As is proven by them re electing the same mob, that's all they need to do.