The future of energy generation and storage

[qldfrog]

Smart air conditioning claimed to save $1,600 in power costs.

Pre-cooling will slash emissions and cut power bills. Here's how some homes are using new technology

Like many first home buyers, Georgia's priority was price and location — it's only incidental her new home is souped-up with technology that's yet to hit the market and innovations that will save her thousands.

www.abc.net.au

To put things in perspective again:
I quote
"It's not just solar and battery, but by having the freehold titled homes and no body corporate, we estimated that over the next 10 years, people should save about $30,000," she said."
So you put ..expensive..top tech in place..which is not cheap as initial investment and you save $1.6k a year
If you get rid of bc, you save $3k a year...twice as much...no solar install or battery required or to replace...
Just saying..?
But yes intelligent AC can help.
Even better, you could also make sure you do not live in a rabbit hutch stuck between asphalt and cement blocks and can do without AC..i have lived less than 30km from Carseldine for 20y and never needed AC.....
But i has breeze trees grass and no neighbours

 

[SirRumpole]

To put things in perspective again:
I quote
"It's not just solar and battery, but by having the freehold titled homes and no body corporate, we estimated that over the next 10 years, people should save about $30,000," she said."
So you put ..expensive..top tech in place..which is not cheap as initial investment and you save $1.6k a year
If you get rid of bc, you save $3k a year...twice as much...no solar install or battery required or to replace...
Just saying..?
But yes intelligent AC can help.
Even better, you could also make sure you do not live in a rabbit hutch stuck between asphalt and cement blocks and can do without AC..i have lived less than 30km from Carseldine for 20y and never needed AC.....
But i has breeze trees grass and no neighbours

I'm in the same position, surrounded by green grass at high altitude.

Rarely use aircon in summer, a few times in winter.

Relatives live in suburban Melbourne, aircon is on most of the time.

But we are lucky. Most people live in suburbia and solutions must be found.

Better insulation for instance.

 

[Smurf1976]

it is currently possible to turn society into 0 emission with existing tech by producing H2 and recombining it to create either syn fuel or LNG and so change absolutely nothing to your car, your house the infrastructure or .....the society.

I don't dispute the existence of your broader concerns but there are very real reasons why such a process, whilst possible, is problematic.

1. Generate electricity
2. Extract CO2 from the air
2a. Split water into hydrogen and oxygen
3. Combine hydrogen and CO2 to produce syngas
4. Turn syngas into methanol
5. Turn methanol into petrol
6. Burn the petrol to run the engine

Every energy transformation incurs losses such that the end result from the above is very little of the original energy actually gets to the wheels. Most of it's lost in one of the transformation steps.

Simply using electricity directly is far simpler where that can be done. We might need synfuels for some things but they ain't efficient or cheap.

 

[qldfrog]

I don't dispute the existence of your broader concerns but there are very real reasons why such a process, whilst possible, is problematic.

1. Generate electricity
2. Extract CO2 from the air
2a. Split water into hydrogen and oxygen
3. Combine hydrogen and CO2 to produce syngas
4. Turn syngas into methanol
5. Turn methanol into petrol
6. Burn the petrol to run the engine

Every energy transformation incurs losses such that the end result from the above is very little of the original energy actually gets to the wheels. Most of it's lost in one of the transformation steps.

Simply using electricity directly is far simpler where that can be done. We might need synfuels for some things but they ain't efficient or cheap.

It is not simpler when you have to change the whole delivery chain, the actual consuming unit and basically the whole economy.not even mentioning the fact we can not expect digging enough litbium for that change in time..so we build a plan thinking we will find a miracle battery based on free thin air before these ice ban mandates..

Porsche invests $100 million in synthetic fuels to save the internal combustion engine

Along with a carbon-neutral pledge by 2030, Porsche is predicting keep 20 per cent of their business with cars powered by internal combustion engines. And synthetic fuel production is coming to Australia.

www.drive.com.au

 

[sptrawler]

Looks like the price of East Coast gas is getting up there.

Oh the irony:
China, which receives over 70% of East Coast gas exports, typically pays less than Australian users of that same gas on the East Coast (see chart above). And the market is so broken that China is sending East Coast gas to Europe, while Australian users are starved of supply:

China sends Aussie gas to Europe as we are starved

As shown in the next chart, East Coast gas users are paying some of the highest prices in the world, while Western Australians – which has a domestic reservation policy – are paying the lowest: Moreover, because gas is the key marginal price setter for electricity, Western Australians also enjoy...

www.macrobusiness.com.au

 

[SirRumpole]

Looks like the price of East Coast gas is getting up there.

View attachment 146693


Oh the irony:
China, which receives over 70% of East Coast gas exports, typically pays less than Australian users of that same gas on the East Coast (see chart above). And the market is so broken that China is sending East Coast gas to Europe, while Australian users are starved of supply:

China sends Aussie gas to Europe as we are starved

As shown in the next chart, East Coast gas users are paying some of the highest prices in the world, while Western Australians – which has a domestic reservation policy – are paying the lowest: Moreover, because gas is the key marginal price setter for electricity, Western Australians also enjoy...

www.macrobusiness.com.au

What a stupid lot we are.

 

[orr]

What a stupid lot we are.

$25 billion deal a coup for Australia

www.theage.com.au

The Howard Costello legacy, luckly the price of the contracts is not included in the above article; if they were? they'd make you run a warm bath and happily open a vein.

 

[sptrawler]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://qz.com/2173486/top-lng-exporter-australia-faces-natural-gas-shortage/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjapvPumIz6AhX-TWwGHSTiBQ4QFnoECCUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw26XqL9t4oXuxzlTjwZH1jf

I think the major issue over East, is the Eastern State Governments allowing the multinationals to sell all their gas and in W.A the State Government demanding an allocation be reserved for domestic use, as it is a State Government assett not a Federal Government assett.
There isnt anything wrong with the Feds finding markets for the gas, it is up to the States to negotiate an allocation for domestic demand.
Finding new markets for NW gas 20 years ago would have been very helpful for Woodside to grow.
The big issue is the Eastern States selling the lot. Lol

 

[qldfrog]

Looks like the price of East Coast gas is getting up there.

View attachment 146693


Oh the irony:
China, which receives over 70% of East Coast gas exports, typically pays less than Australian users of that same gas on the East Coast (see chart above). And the market is so broken that China is sending East Coast gas to Europe, while Australian users are starved of supply:

China sends Aussie gas to Europe as we are starved

As shown in the next chart, East Coast gas users are paying some of the highest prices in the world, while Western Australians – which has a domestic reservation policy – are paying the lowest: Moreover, because gas is the key marginal price setter for electricity, Western Australians also enjoy...

www.macrobusiness.com.au

I laughed or should i cry?....

 

[SirRumpole]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://qz.com/2173486/top-lng-exporter-australia-faces-natural-gas-shortage/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjapvPumIz6AhX-TWwGHSTiBQ4QFnoECCUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw26XqL9t4oXuxzlTjwZH1jf

I think the major issue over East, is the Eastern State Governments allowing the multinationals to sell all their gas and in W.A the State Government demanding an allocation be reserved for domestic use, as it is a State Government assett not a Federal Government assett.
There isnt anything wrong with the Feds finding markets for the gas, it is up to the States to negotiate an allocation for domestic demand.
Finding new markets for NW gas 20 years ago would have been very helpful for Woodside to grow.
The big issue is the Eastern States selling the lot. Lol

The Feds could still impose an export tax and get back some of the revenue.

 

[sptrawler]

The Feds could still impose an export tax and get back some of the revenue.

Yes that's exactly what you and I have been pushing for several years and the only politician to have run with it, was thrown out for standing up for a tax based on export volumes.

Every Government has stuffed up, iron ore royalties are a pittance everything we export we receive a pittance for, but no one cares as long as more holes are dug.

The gas issue wouldn't be an issue, if the State Governments had demanded some be kept for domestic use, my guess is China is on selling East Coast gas as well at the current elevated prices, while burning coal themselves to produce their own domestic electrical generation.

The next cab off the rank, which I have mentioned quite a while ago, no mention of how we are going to tax it, reserve some for domestic use. Is this going to be another East Coast gas disaster?

Clean energy exports at 'lightning speed'

Australia will shoot well beyond an electricity grid powered by 82 per cent renewable energy in its quest to be a clean energy superpower.

www.perthnow.com.au

Australia will change at "lightning speed" to become a superpower exporting renewable energy to the world.

Climate and Energy Minister Chris Bowen told a forum in Canberra the plan to have an energy grid powered by 82 per cent renewables is a big step up, but is just the beginning.

"But then we've got to be moving on to 200, 300, 400 per cent in exports," he said on Wednesday.


The federal government has committed to more than 10,000 kilometres of new high-voltage lines to connect solar, wind and energy storage across a future clean electricity grid - for new industries and exports.

The Sun Cable project to export energy to Singapore from a massive solar farm in central Australia and the development of green hydrogen have a long way to go but the potential is there, Mr Bowen said.

"It won't be long before we're walking through hydrogen plants and showing the jobs of the future, physically touching them."

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes that's exactly what you and I have been pushing for several years and the only politician to have run with it, was thrown out for standing up for a tax based on export volumes.

Every Government has stuffed up, iron ore royalties are a pittance everything we export we receive a pittance for, but no one cares as long as more holes are dug.

The gas issue wouldn't be an issue, if the State Governments had demanded some be kept for domestic use, my guess is China is on selling East Coast gas as well at the current elevated prices, while burning coal themselves to produce their own domestic electrical generation.

The next cab off the rank, which I have mentioned quite a while ago, no mention of how we are going to tax it, reserve some for domestic use. Is this going to be another East Coast gas disaster?

Clean energy exports at 'lightning speed'

Australia will shoot well beyond an electricity grid powered by 82 per cent renewable energy in its quest to be a clean energy superpower.

www.perthnow.com.au

Australia will change at "lightning speed" to become a superpower exporting renewable energy to the world.

Climate and Energy Minister Chris Bowen told a forum in Canberra the plan to have an energy grid powered by 82 per cent renewables is a big step up, but is just the beginning.

"But then we've got to be moving on to 200, 300, 400 per cent in exports," he said on Wednesday.


The federal government has committed to more than 10,000 kilometres of new high-voltage lines to connect solar, wind and energy storage across a future clean electricity grid - for new industries and exports.

The Sun Cable project to export energy to Singapore from a massive solar farm in central Australia and the development of green hydrogen have a long way to go but the potential is there, Mr Bowen said.

"It won't be long before we're walking through hydrogen plants and showing the jobs of the future, physically touching them."

I wonder where the Minister is getting his advice from, vested interests again maybe ?

It would be great if it all works as presented, I just hope he's not getting carried away with blue sky talk by snake oil sellers.

 

[Smurf1976]

The Howard Costello legacy

I'd extend the net a bit wider.

Holt, Whitlam, Fraser, Hawke, Keating, Howard, Rudd, Gillard, Abbott and Morrison at the PM level all directly contributed to the energy mess in some identifiable manner.

So did quite a few state premiers from both sides of politics in several states.

So did the Greens and various others who weren't actually in government but who applied pressure in a manner akin to the passengers egging on the driver to do something stupid whilst pointing a gun to their head.

Hence I don't bother much with the politics of it. They're all guilty. Even some local councils belong on the list.

 

[Smurf1976]

The gas issue wouldn't be an issue, if the State Governments had demanded some be kept for domestic use

A big part of the problem is what became known as "the reforms" to the energy industry.

Go back 30 years and we had:

SAGASCO running the gas in SA.

The Gas & Fuel Corporation (state government owned) running the gas system throughout Victoria.

The Gas Corporation of Tasmania (owned by Boral) supplying Town Gas in Launceston and LPG elsewhere in the state.

AGL running the gas supply in Sydney both the physical assets and retailing.

Qld had a couple of different companies in Brisbane and a number of operators elsewhere in the state but, key point, they all covered only a specific defined area. So they weren't competitors, just different owners but there was no reason they couldn't work with each other and source long term gas supply and so on.

And so on. Some were private, some were government owned but bottom line is they all had tenure and scale. They could and did make long term plans, enter long term contracts and so on.

Then along comes government and in its wisdom decides that monopolies are evil and we must have competition.

That put an complete end to any concept of long term planning. Now it was all about the short term and trying to stay in business. That leads directly to the lack of contracting gas decades in advance and so on. Whereas previously AGL had considered 15 years ahead to be the absolute bare minimum, all of a sudden nobody was interested in contracting anywhere even remotely that far into the future.

It hasn't saved consumers money either. Compare prices back then with today's and they've increased significantly in real terms after accounting for inflation.

 

[sptrawler]

Similar happened in W.A, the Government built the Dampier to Perth pipeline, reticulated the metropolitan area, then soon after privatised it. Fortunately it wasn't as fragmented as the Eastern States and the Government demanded that development of new gas fields had to allocate a domestic reserve.
Isn't a lot of the issues over East a result of old fields like the Cooper basin drying up and new fields in SE Queensland not having a domestic reserve policy?

 

[Smurf1976]

Similar happened in W.A, the Government built the Dampier to Perth pipeline, reticulated the metropolitan area, then soon after privatised it.

A difference in WA though is that government still has involvement as such via the power industry and via the 15% reservation.

Versus the eastern states where it's up to AGL, Origin, Energy Australia, Alinta and everyone else to contract whatever gas they want to contract. The trouble being with them all competing against each other, none of them have any real certainty as to volume and none have any real bargaining power with upstream producers.

 

[qldfrog]

Maybe i am completely wrong but i thought as well that WA land owners had some interest in their UG resources?
So farmer Joe in WA get some money if gas or any resource is found under his paddock: aka great news whereas in the east, he loses it all with tracks derricks and bulldozers ensuring he is ruined , the work of decades or generations destroyed and can do nothing against it unless he is not pure white..but even then ..
So the lock the gate movement which might explain a lot now with gas " shortage" on the east coast
I always found the land ownership laws in this country amounting to communism now tainted of corporatism..
Anyway not seen this mentioned..
And yes in qld i would lock the gate to my smallish farm

 

[Smurf1976]

So farmer Joe in WA get some money if gas or any resource is found under his paddock: aka great news whereas in the east, he loses it all with tracks derricks and bulldozers ensuring he is ruined , the work of decades or generations destroyed and can do nothing against it unless he is not pure white..but even then ..

A further problem is landowners being stirred up for purely political objectives.

Those who think they won't be able to continue dairy farming with a transmission line run through the property because the cows will become radioactive for example.

It's just pure politics playing on the concerns of farmers who, no disrespect t them, know a lot more about farming than they do about transmission lines and who assume there's some truth in the scaremongering, failing to grasp that it's purely a political game.

If anything, the cows seem quite attracted to the towers in their midst: https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-41...ekFJyad1bx1rzrI-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-GB

Plenty of other places they could stand if they didn't like them.

 

[qldfrog]

A further problem is landowners being stirred up for purely political objectives.

Those who think they won't be able to continue dairy farming with a transmission line run through the property because the cows will become radioactive for example.

It's just pure politics playing on the concerns of farmers who, no disrespect t them, know a lot more about farming than they do about transmission lines and who assume there's some truth in the scaremongering, failing to grasp that it's purely a political game.

If anything, the cows seem quite attracted to the towers in their midst: https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-41...ekFJyad1bx1rzrI-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-GB

Plenty of other places they could stand if they didn't like them.

We are talking gas/fracking here or even drilling
Not much left of farming in these conditions.
And if coal, a big hole, at least for coal they usually buy back the farm..not that you have much choice or negotiating power
With power lines, you get at least a bit of money for the land lost, with fracking it is a disaster due to a pond per well of polluted often salty water
I flew over hundreds of sqr km of these flying out of Houston earlier this year.Impressive but no farming whatsoever on these fracking field now or for a long time..But then the US farmer owning these is now filthy rich...

 

[Smurf1976]

We are talking gas/fracking here or even drilling

I'm looking at all of it - building more transmission lines is in some cases a direct alternative to burning more gas. Not for every line but for some that's certainly true, the new line bringing electricity generated from a non-gas source directly displaces the use of gas. It's another means to the same end.

Suffice to say certain organisations are fighting tooth and nail to stop any such lines being built.

For gas specifically though, I certainly agree that dumping salt water on the ground is going to kill the farming and that's really not a good idea. I'll argue though that the problem could be fixed finding a better way to dispose of salt water to avoid that problem. Or at least find one central bit of land of not much use for anything else and dump it all in one place.