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The future of energy generation and storage

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Smurf1976 said:
I'm looking at all of it - building more transmission lines is in some cases a direct alternative to burning more gas. Not for every line but for some that's certainly true, the new line bringing electricity generated from a non-gas source directly displaces the use of gas. It's another means to the same end.

Suffice to say certain organisations are fighting tooth and nail to stop any such lines being built.

For gas specifically though, I certainly agree that dumping salt water on the ground is going to kill the farming and that's really not a good idea. I'll argue though that the problem could be fixed finding a better way to dispose of salt water to avoid that problem. Or at least find one central bit of land of not much use for anything else and dump it all in one place. :2twocents
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The other alternative is to demand that those doing the mining/extraction/production treat the water to reach or exceed a spefic salinity/impurity level.
Mick
 
mullokintyre said:
The other alternative is to demand that those doing the mining/extraction/production treat the water to reach or exceed a spefic salinity/impurity level.
Mick
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Goes back to that:
Are you ready to get poisoned.. let's say by lithium mining down the road so that a cbd wanxxer can drive an ev to supposedly save the world in 100y?
Harsh but factual
 
@sptrawler , looks like the west has joined the east coast in shootng themselves in both feet at once.
From ABC News

There are fears that a growing crisis in Western Australia's coal heartlands could imperil the state's biggest electricity grid less than a year after the lights flickered out during an intense heatwave.

Key points:​

  • Concerns grow over the security of power supplies to WA's main grid after receivers appointed to major coal mine
  • Griffin Coal mine supplies Bluewaters power station, which provides about 15 per cent of electricity in the system
  • Troubles come amid a wider shortage of coal used for power generation in the state's coal heartlands

A long-running saga involving Griffin Coal, one of WA's two coal mines, this week took a critical turn after the operation was tipped into receivership by its Indian bankers.

The move cut off an attempt by Griffin's biggest customer, the 440-megawatt Bluewaters power station, to seize control of the mine following months of disrupted coal deliveries.

But it also comes as coal stockpiles in the Collie basin, where more than a third of the grid's power is generated, plumb historically low levels.

In a sign of the desperation, mining giant South32 this week revealed it was looking to import coal in a bid to ensure supplies for its Worsley alumina refinery.

The announcement comes despite the skyrocketing cost of the commodity on global markets, where coal is fetching prices higher than South32 pays Griffin.

Steve Thomas, an Upper House South West Liberal MP, said the events suggested the crisis affecting Griffin had now spread to its customers.

What's more, Dr Thomas said the problems were threatening to undermine power supplies in WA's biggest grid, which supplies almost two million people in the state's south.
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Mcgowan may need to jump in there and buy it from the receivers to fix the short term issue, but with the actual decline of the coal reserves, they may need to rethink longer term.
Mick
 
mullokintyre said:
@sptrawler , looks like the west has joined the east coast in shootng themselves in both feet at once.
From ABC News


Mcgowan may need to jump in there and buy it from the receivers to fix the short term issue, but with the actual decline of the coal reserves, they may need to rethink longer term.
Mick
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It's a long story that one, it started a long time ago when the two main coal miners were supplying the SEC, the SEC then asked both to put in their best tender price so that they could reduce duplication.
Well long story short Griffin lost and from memory it was owned by Rick Stowe, so being the entrepreneur he was he made plan B.
If I can't sell my coal to the SEC, i'll build my own power station, which he did Blue Waters, then he sold the power station to the Japanese and the coal mine to the Indians, again from memory.
Well it has been a bun fight ever since, my B.I.L worked for Griffin most of his working life and took redundancy when they were going to hammer working conditions, my oldest son works there.
With the coal issue from memory I don't think it affects the Gov generators, unless things have changed since I retired.
The other problem is the mines are reluctant to develop any more seams, due to all the uncertainty around coal and the Gov saying they are shutting down their generators by 2030.
So it is all becoming a mess, companies like Blue Waters and South 32's Worsley still want coal, but the miners don't want to pour money into developing new reserves, when they probably wont be wanted.
Oh what a mess, but how you avoid it, is difficult.:2twocents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ric_Stowe
 
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SirRumpole said:
Concentrating solar cells can improve efficiency, at a cost of course.

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It might be expensive, but I can see eventually it will be required, to get more bang for acreage.
The farms can't just keep getting bigger and bigger, so they will have to improve the output for the given size and concentrating the light through lenses makes good sense IMO.
 
sptrawler said:
It might be expensive, but I can see eventually it will be required, to get more bang for acreage.
The farms can't just keep getting bigger and bigger, so they will have to improve the output for the given size and concentrating the light through lenses makes good sense IMO.
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Issue is efficiency decrease with heat.. concentrate rays and you increase heat.... nothing is perfect
 
qldfrog said:
Issue is efficiency decrease with heat.. concentrate rays and you increase heat.... nothing is perfect
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Life's a compromise, do you lose efficiency, or lose habitat?
Decisions, decisions.
Questions that the sensitive sector have to reconcile and are yet to be addressed.
 
sptrawler said:
Yes static batteries will come in all shapes sizes and materials, when it comes to E.V's it boils down to two things weight and energy density, with static batteries weight/size isn't a major concern.
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I deed so let's stpp wasting good money on lithium batteries for the grid and ensure qilin battery or our western copycats are available before pushing and definitely buying an EV.
 
No surprises there really.

"Consumers across Australia can expect hikes worth billions in the costs of transporting power after a watchdog said there needed to be a "quantum leap" in spending on poles and wires to deal with the switch to renewable energy.

Key points:​

  • Experts say tens of billions of dollars in extra spending will be needed on poles and wires
  • An economic watchdog has ruled in support of $1 billion in extra spending by WA's network utility
  • Across Australia, network providers are tipped to seek big increases in funding to handle the renewable energy surge

In a decision heralded as a landmark, Western Australia's economic regulator this month said the state's major electricity network provider should be allowed to spend $9 billion over the next five years – $1 billion more than it requested."

www.abc.net.au

Billion-dollar shock as energy grid renewal costs become clear

Australian consumers have been told to brace for big hikes in their power bills after a watchdog revealed the true cost of overhauling the grid to deal with the renewable energy transition.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
 
Belli said:
No surprises there really.

"Consumers across Australia can expect hikes worth billions in the costs of transporting power after a watchdog said there needed to be a "quantum leap" in spending on poles and wires to deal with the switch to renewable energy.

Key points:​

  • Experts say tens of billions of dollars in extra spending will be needed on poles and wires
  • An economic watchdog has ruled in support of $1 billion in extra spending by WA's network utility
  • Across Australia, network providers are tipped to seek big increases in funding to handle the renewable energy surge

In a decision heralded as a landmark, Western Australia's economic regulator this month said the state's major electricity network provider should be allowed to spend $9 billion over the next five years – $1 billion more than it requested."

www.abc.net.au

Billion-dollar shock as energy grid renewal costs become clear

Australian consumers have been told to brace for big hikes in their power bills after a watchdog revealed the true cost of overhauling the grid to deal with the renewable energy transition.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
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Yes and one of the many reasons, that when Governments say electricity is going to get cheaper with renewables, people need to take it with a grain of salt IMO.
 
sptrawler said:
Yes and one of the many reasons, that when Governments say electricity is going to get cheaper with renewables, people need to take it with a grain of salt IMO.
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There will always be a capital cost associated with a renewable energy transition. No one has ever suggested otherwise.
The question will dong it as cost effectively as possible and ensuring the financial benefits of cheap solar/wind energy end up in the hands of consumers.

The Poles and Wires brigade have a sorry history of price gouging and, I suggest, profiteering. :(
 
basilio said:
There will always be a capital cost associated with a renewable energy transition. No one has ever suggested otherwise.
The question will dong it as cost effectively as possible and ensuring the financial benefits of cheap solar/wind energy end up in the hands of consumers.

The Poles and Wires brigade have a sorry history of price gouging and, I suggest, profiteering. :(
Click to expand...

It's a sticky situation. People don't want to go off grid, but with the steady increase of home solar power the profitability of distributed systems will decrease over time, therefore the chances of large scale investment by private concerns will decrease imo.

More poles and wires might be something that governments have to finance themselves to ensure that prices remain stable.
 
basilio said:
The Poles and Wires brigade have a sorry history of price gouging and, I suggest, profiteering. :(
Click to expand...
I'll simply say that the engineers and blue collar workforce between them could and would do it far cheaper if they were allowed to.

Some of the rules and regulations, and to be clear I'm not referring to worker safety, technical standards or legitimate environmental issues, are costing an outright fortune in order to keep the ideologues and hangers on happy.

Sure the owners are making a profit and obviously the unions want higher pay and so on but I could point to bigger problems than that in the rules, regulations and so on aspect of it all. Some of it basically is religion of a sort or close enough to it. :2twocents
 

World’s biggest pumped hydro for Queensland​

Click to expand...

Linked document is political in nature but has the basics:


There's a lot more to it than just one hydro project but in short, the one referred to is 5 GW / 120 GWh and involves a dam being built in the Pioneer Valley about 70km west of Mackay.

In layman's terms that's a greater peak power output than the original Snowy scheme and it's about half of Queensland's total peak demand from all consumers including heavy industry and mining.

There's also a smaller project ~2GW and between those two, plus existing pumped and on river hydro, in total hydro will be able to meet over 75% of Queensland's peak demand.

A new state-owned entity, Hydro Queensland, being established to make it happen.

Plus new 500kV transmission backbone.

Plus large scale wind and solar as the energy source.

Plus assorted bits and pieces to go with it all.

So all looks good so far. Now we just need to:

1. See if it actually proceeds.

2. Watch the inevitable crap show from those who don't grasp that if you actually want the problems of climate change, fossil fuel supply and energy prices fixed then this is what it takes. It's hydro megaprojects and it's 500kV transmission towering over the landscape, it's not cottage industry stuff. :2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
Linked document is political in nature but has the basics:


There's a lot more to it than just one hydro project but in short, the one referred to is 5 GW / 120 GWh and involves a dam being built in the Pioneer Valley about 70km west of Mackay.

In layman's terms that's a greater peak power output than the original Snowy scheme and it's about half of Queensland's total peak demand from all consumers including heavy industry and mining.

There's also a smaller project ~2GW and between those two, plus existing pumped and on river hydro, in total hydro will be able to meet over 75% of Queensland's peak demand.

A new state-owned entity, Hydro Queensland, being established to make it happen.

Plus new 500kV transmission backbone.

Plus large scale wind and solar as the energy source.

Plus assorted bits and pieces to go with it all.

So all looks good so far. Now we just need to:

1. See if it actually proceeds.

2. Watch the inevitable crap show from those who don't grasp that if you actually want the problems of climate change, fossil fuel supply and energy prices fixed then this is what it takes. It's hydro megaprojects and it's 500kV transmission towering over the landscape, it's not cottage industry stuff. :2twocents
Click to expand...
No doubt there will be a frog species threatened so it will probably be shelved. :rolleyes:

A qldFrog ? Or should it be on the ignore list ? :)
 
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