The future of energy generation and storage

[SirRumpole]

This kinda comes up from

Dyor, but a nytimes article said the figur e for Japan was 22 new coal plants.

 

[Smurf1976]

This kinda comes up from time to time... Is this accurate?

In short, no.

Assuming it's referring only to power stations and not to any other use of coal, we still have more than six coal-fired power stations operating in Australia at present:

Queensland:
Callide B
Callide C
Gladstone
Stanwell
Tarong
Tarong North
Kogan Creek
Millmerran

NSW:
Mt Piper
Bayswater
Eraring
Liddell
Vales Point B

Victoria:
Loy Yang A
Loy Yang B
Yallourn W

WA:
Muja C
Muja D
Collie
*Bluewaters 1
*Bluewaters 2

*By the convention used in most places, Bluewaters 1 & 2 could be argued as two units of the same single power station despite being regarded as separate in the WA context.

The others are all separate power stations as per normal convention. Some are at the same site, eg Muja C & D or Callide B & C are right next to each other, but they're separate facilities built as separate projects during the original construction (and more than a decade apart in the case of Callide). They're separate in the normal sense - different equipment in them too.

The above does not include co-generation at various industrial sites for which coal is the primary energy resource.

Plants closed since 2005:

Queensland:
Collinsville
Callide A
Swanbank A
Swanbank B

NSW:
**Redbank
Munmorah
Wallerawang C

Victoria:
Hazelwood
Morwell
Anglesea

SA:
Playford B
Northern

WA:
***Muja A
***Muja B
****Kwinana A
****Kwinana C

Notes:

**Redbank could in theory be returned to service and there have been various proposals to do so.

***Muja A & B named as separate plants in WA historically but effectively the same place in any practical sense and commonly referred to as "Muja A/B" or "Muja AB" for that reason.

****Kwinana A & C originally designed as oil-fired plant but converted to also fire coal and gas. So not purpose built coal plant but could and did burn coal in practice after conversion. Everything else on the list is purpose built coal plant, only using other fuels for starting etc.

 

[SirRumpole]

A bit political (what isn't) , but moves are afoot for hydropower projects in WA using old coal mines as reservoirs.

An ex-premier, a union warhorse, a media mogul and the race to claim the key to Australia's green power future

Deep storage is considered the Holy Grail of efforts to turn the electricity grid green — and a roll call of interesting characters is on the trail.

www.abc.net.au

 

[sptrawler]

A bit political (what isn't) , but moves are afoot for hydropower projects in WA using old coal mines as reservoirs.

An ex-premier, a union warhorse, a media mogul and the race to claim the key to Australia's green power future

Deep storage is considered the Holy Grail of efforts to turn the electricity grid green — and a roll call of interesting characters is on the trail.

www.abc.net.au

I don't think I'll be in that IPO.

 

[qldfrog]

A bit political (what isn't) , but moves are afoot for hydropower projects in WA using old coal mines as reservoirs.

An ex-premier, a union warhorse, a media mogul and the race to claim the key to Australia's green power future

Deep storage is considered the Holy Grail of efforts to turn the electricity grid green — and a roll call of interesting characters is on the trail.

www.abc.net.au

There is definitively the feeling we could do something useful with that after mining when you drive past these massive holes.
Either as an "hydro battery" as planned with old gold mines up in North qld, or even as water reserve for agriculture.
Trouble with coal mines is that these bigs holes are all more or less at the same level....

 

[qldfrog]

A bit political (what isn't) , but moves are afoot for hydropower projects in WA using old coal mines as reservoirs.

An ex-premier, a union warhorse, a media mogul and the race to claim the key to Australia's green power future

Deep storage is considered the Holy Grail of efforts to turn the electricity grid green — and a roll call of interesting characters is on the trail.

www.abc.net.au

The perfect recipe of tax payer funded capitalism, involving unions, business and politicos to ensure every taxpayer and worker will be screwed.
If not done yet, i would suggest they find a trans gender first nation director too.if only i was kidding..

 

[Knobby22]

True

Misses capacitance and induction though.

 

[Smurf1976]

A bit political (what isn't) , but moves are afoot for hydropower projects in WA using old coal mines as reservoirs.

An ex-premier, a union warhorse, a media mogul and the race to claim the key to Australia's green power future

Deep storage is considered the Holy Grail of efforts to turn the electricity grid green — and a roll call of interesting characters is on the trail.

www.abc.net.au

For the record there's a few designs I've seen for schemes based around the existing mine pits being repurposed for pumped hydro.

One of the more ambitious ones involves completely submerging the existing Muja power station site. For those familiar with it, if (hypothetically) the station wasn't demolished first then the only thing visible above the water, when the storage is full, would be the top of the C & D station stacks. So the water would be above the boilers and very much above everything else.

There are also some smaller, less ambitious schemes, which don't involve water anywhere near that high.

 

[sptrawler]

For the record there's a few designs I've seen for schemes based around the existing mine pits being repurposed for pumped hydro.

One of the more ambitious ones involves completely submerging the existing Muja power station site. For those familiar with it, if (hypothetically) the station wasn't demolished first then the only thing visible above the water, when the storage is full, would be the top of the C & D station stacks. So the water would be above the boilers and very much above everything else.

There are also some smaller, less ambitious schemes, which don't involve water anywhere near that high.

While on the subject of Collie coal fired power stations @Smurf1976

Crunch time for Griffin Coal as insolvency firms hover​

Western Australia’s Griffin Coal could be about to fall into the hands of its lenders.

 

[qldfrog]

Just as we were talking ex mining holes used for hydro

Pumped hydro project a jobs gold mine

And from 2016..yes 6y ago

Genex Power uses old gold mine for hydro storage plant

Genex Power says plans to convert a gold mine near Townsville into a hydro storage plant or "giant battery" was commercially viable.

www.afr.com

So not a quick fix..

 

[sptrawler]

For the record there's a few designs I've seen for schemes based around the existing mine pits being repurposed for pumped hydro.

One of the more ambitious ones involves completely submerging the existing Muja power station site. For those familiar with it, if (hypothetically) the station wasn't demolished first then the only thing visible above the water, when the storage is full, would be the top of the C & D station stacks. So the water would be above the boilers and very much above everything else.

There are also some smaller, less ambitious schemes, which don't involve water anywhere near that high.

The other issue I have with a dam that would covering the top of Muja Stage C/D stacks is, I find that hard to believe.
I worked there for quite a while and have been on the top of the boilers, there isn't much higher as far as the eye can see in all directions and the stacks are at least a hundred feet higher.
So I would certainly like to see that plan @Smurf1976 .
This photo is from an aeroplane.

 

[Smurf1976]

The other issue I have with a dam that would covering the top of Muja Stage C/D stacks is, I find that hard to believe.

There's definitely a rudimentary design around. Not one that I'm in any way involved with but I've seen it some time ago. Plans had everything existing shown as a reference so roads, Muja PS and so on all there.

Not that I'm wishing to submerge Muja by the way, just noting the idea of turning that whole area into a pumped hydro scheme has been thought of and some basic designs done. I don't have the documents but I'll post it if I come across it.

As for how likely it is, from my brief look at it my basic thought was that it seemed a bit self-defeating. That is, if it requires relocating the existing switchyard and multiple lines connecting to it then that somewhat negates the value of building it there in the first place - a smaller scheme that doesn't bring the water anywhere near that high would avoid that problem and gut feel tells me there's likely to be a better site within the SWIS footprint for another scheme to offset the reduced scale. There's hills and valleys so things can be done possibly using an existing water reservoir - just need to add a second one higher or lower.

FWIW - here's a now very old photo of Muja. Date unconfirmed but to my understanding about 1981 since C station is in operation and D isn't built or even being built yet. Happy to be corrected on that detail though....

 

[sptrawler]

I haven't been out there for a lot of years, but I will look on the Ozi explorer topigraphical maps, my gut feeling is that Muja is on close to the highest ground in the area.
That photo you posted is when stage C was completed, two Parsons 200MW units, same as stage C Kwinana.
I was on construction of the Muja stage C units, pulled the pin in 1980 and went to the North West, way too many strikes at Muja, setting up the conditions for Worsely construction.
Twelve months of savings, gone in four months of strikes. Lol

 

[Smurf1976]

Found not the one I was thinking of but it's close, it shows the Muja site under water:

That's from An atlas of pumped hydro energy storage, Australian National University, dated 21 September 2017.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a good idea, indeed my thinking is it's probably a long way down the list of sensible options given there's a need to retain the multiple transmission lines connecting at that point, but the idea is out there yes.

Close up of the above image with Muja PS site in the centre of the image:

 

[sptrawler]

It looks like a multitude of different sized tanks, rather than a dam. Interesting, but I would have thought cost prohibitive.
They do have a problem there though, all that infrastructure being a transmission hub and it really doesn't lend itself to renewable generation. Not overly windy, not very sunny etc.
So what they end up doing, will be interesting.

 

[Smurf1976]

would have thought cost prohibitive.
They do have a problem there though, all that infrastructure being a transmission hub

The bit I've quoted of your comment sums up my thoughts really.

It seems like a rather costly way to build a pumped hydro scheme to start with and doubly so given there'd be a need to replace the existing switchyard and reroute multiple transmission lines to some other location presumably nearby.

Much like there's still a lot of transmission to Port Augusta in SA despite no longer having generation there (3 separate coal-fired stations existed in the past) and likewise Waddamana in Tas remains a key transmission substation despite the associated generation having been largely abandoned in 1964 and completely shut in 1994.

 

[Smurf1976]

Much like there's still a lot of transmission to Port Augusta in SA despite no longer having generation there

I should clarify that I mean there isn't the original generation the lines were built for.

There's a solar farm nearby but it doesn't need all that transmission, it's not on the same scale as the former Playford A + Playford B + Northern power stations all of which are now fully demolished apart from remnant concrete etc.

 

[mullokintyre]

In a little bit of left field thinking about using Gas for generation, I wonder if anyone has done the sums on using the Sabatier process for making methane, which is the largest component of Natural gas (70 to 90 percent).
The process combines Hydrogen and CO2 under heat and pressure to produce CH4 and water vapour.
The Hydrogen part is easy, just use some excess renewable electricity to run a Hydrolysis plant.
The difficult part might be in creating or extracting sufficient CO2 either in acidic carbonate reactions or extracting from the atmosphere.
That way, none of the power station burners need to be altered, the gas can be stored and even liquified for transport elsewhere, and it is not restricted by limited supply of raw materials.
Mick

 

[SirRumpole]

Smart air conditioning claimed to save $1,600 in power costs.

Pre-cooling will slash emissions and cut power bills. Here's how some homes are using new technology

Like many first home buyers, Georgia's priority was price and location — it's only incidental her new home is souped-up with technology that's yet to hit the market and innovations that will save her thousands.

www.abc.net.au

 

[qldfrog]

In a little bit of left field thinking about using Gas for generation, I wonder if anyone has done the sums on using the Sabatier process for making methane, which is the largest component of Natural gas (70 to 90 percent).
The process combines Hydrogen and CO2 under heat and pressure to produce CH4 and water vapour.
The Hydrogen part is easy, just use some excess renewable electricity to run a Hydrolysis plant.
The difficult part might be in creating or extracting sufficient CO2 either in acidic carbonate reactions or extracting from the atmosphere.
That way, none of the power station burners need to be altered, the gas can be stored and even liquified for transport elsewhere, and it is not restricted by limited supply of raw materials.
Mick

Like for synthetic fuel, the problem is ideological;
it is currently possible to turn society into 0 emission with existing tech by producing H2 and recombining it to create either syn fuel or LNG and so change absolutely nothing to your car, your house the infrastructure or .....the society.
The Reset and current power to in charge want deconstruction..

Deconstruction - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

-> In short our society is bad and has to be erased to be replaced with a new age..used to be called communism 50 y ago..
So yes we can add solar panels and wind and create zero co2 net balance unleaded fuel or gas .
In my opinion, this is the way to go and let it happen behind the scene:
hardly anyone knows how google search engine works, or AI or how we drill for oil or make a car, or even how TV works..
yet we are all supposed to change our life to fit to a green integrism and propel immense wealth transfer toward a minute elite while being convinced we are acting like saints by eating or drinking ****, and living back like Dicken's characters to help the planet while wiping out 200y of social progress...