The future of energy generation and storage

[SirRumpole]

Let the AEMO say what is required IMO, it is a technical issue, not a political one.

Absolutely.

 

[sptrawler]

You have talked about an orderly transition occurring, and you know that is not the case.
I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but the root cause of our problems remains the inability of our federal government to see that renewables were going to be our energy future and, as a consequence, deliberately stymie their ability to supplant the fossil fuel sector. We are so far behind that AEMO is still trying to get a rule change into the NER that encapsulates energy storage systems (ESS) in the NEM to support variable renewable energy (VRE) - ie. bi-directional electricity flows.

No here you go again, you are the one going on about Government policy intervention, and I have been saying it hasnt been required so far, as the problem is with the grid infrastructure not lack of will participants in supplying solar and wind.
Stop miss quoting.
We will need policy when the States and the AEMO, get the system in place to take the backlogged renewables.
ATM Im just thrilled the general public is wearing the cost of installing the solar and wind plant, usually it all just gets added to our debt.

 

[rederob]

Absolutely.

AEMO do not determine priorities and nor do they determine the framework for capital investment certainty. They keep the lights on as best they can with the hand they are dealt.
As a result we don't know who is going to do what next. And if anyone moves, there's no guarantee the system can accommodate it unless it's a bolt on.

 

[rederob]

No here you go again, you are the one going on about Government policy intervention, and I have been saying it hasnt been required so far, as the problem is with the grid infrastructure not lack of will participants in supplying solar and wind.
Stop miss quoting.
We will need policy when the States and the AEMO, get the system in place to take the backlogged renewables.

I suggest you do a bit more reading about the energy system and how it fits to the prevailing policy framework.
You do not understand it.

 

[sptrawler]

I suggest you do a bit more reading about the energy system and how it fits to the prevailing policy framework.
You do not understand it.

And I suggest you read up on a HV distrubution system, you obviously fail to understand that.
The prevailing policy framework does not rebuild a State owned 100year old power distribution network.
Politicians and accountants dont fix technical problems, they just create ways of making the taxpayer fund the work.
It is time the politicians waited untill the technical side is sorted, then enact policy that enables an orderly transition.
There is no point having a policy when they havent a system in place to faciltate the adoption of said policy.
History shows we stuff it up when the politicians try and guess what is required.
Look at the ridiculous situation of our telecommunications, driven by policy, rather than by common sense.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree as usual.

 

[rederob]

And I suggest you read up on a HV distrubution system, you obviously fail to understand that.

Fail on your part. Stick to what you know.

The prevailing policy framework does not rebuild a State owned 100year old power distribution network.

That's exactly what the NEM was tasked with achieving.

It is time the politicians waited untill the technical side is sorted, then enact policy that enables an orderly transition.

COAG Energy Council determines what is prioritised.

There is no point having a policy when they havent a system in place to faciltate the adoption of said policy.

You have this back to front: The "system" has always been there, but it has lacked direction.

Look at the ridiculous situation of our telecommunications, driven by policy, rather than by common sense.

You mean the policy that got changed by the Coalition because Turnbull thought he knew better and could save billions of dollars? A policy that was originally comprehensive and was turned into a dog's breakfast.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree as usual.

Get your facts straight and we can all see.

 

[sptrawler]

One thing it does show Rob, you obviously have a much higher regard for our current politicians than I do.

 

[SirRumpole]

Haven't all these problems been sorted in other countries ?

Why not just adopt the most successful global policy instead of trying to reinvent the wheel ?

 

[rederob]

One thing it does show Rob, you obviously have a much higher regard for our current politicians than I do.

I doubt it.
We have no policy on carbon pricing, so generators are reluctant to commit to building the scale we need.
We have no policy on renewables: they are just part of the mix and have to be retrospectively integrated.
We have not identified renewables corridors so we have no ability to easily integrate the best renewable sites into the grid.
We have no policies on storage.

 

[Smurf1976]

We are so far behind that AEMO is still trying to get a rule change into the NER

It comes down to the economic ideologues and regulator types having far too much influence over the whole show.

That they’ve pushed the cost up ~80% in real terms whilst sending technical and environmental standards down the drain means there’s really no benefit to their involvement. Nothing of note has actually been improved by this approach.

It’s a tail wagging the dog problem.

 

[Smurf1976]

AEMO do not determine priorities and nor do they determine the framework for capital investment certainty. They keep the lights on as best they can with the hand they are dealt.
As a result we don't know who is going to do what next. And if anyone moves, there's no guarantee the system can accommodate it unless it's a bolt on.

AEMO are becoming slowly but surely more heavy handed and that’s a good thing not a bad one. The various generating companies are getting rather used to the idea of being given orders and AEMO does seem to be getting better at managing the government. Government and the media are increasingly quoting word for word and so on.

That said, there’s still a long way to go. The politicians haven’t been beaten into submission yet but they’re finding themselves on shakier ground which is a positive sign.

Whether or not that’s the “correct” approach the reality is that some leader emerges amidst a vacuum. If the government won’t govern then others will in practice fill their shoes and in the context of this industry there’s been growing shift over the past 4 or so years. Whether privately owned or government, leadership is emerging from within.

Now it just needs to get better at actually managing the government. It’ll happen.

Perhaps not overly democratic but the politicians simply aren’t up to the task that’s very clear. Heck they can’t even cope with fixing a few sports ovals without stuffing it up.

 

[sptrawler]

I doubt it.
We have no policy on carbon pricing, so generators are reluctant to commit to building the scale we need.
We have no policy on renewables: they are just part of the mix and have to be retrospectively integrated.
We have not identified renewables corridors so we have no ability to easily integrate the best renewable sites into the grid.
.

And you think the politicians can sort that, without guidance from the technical side?
Best of luck with that, we have history to prove the politicians make policy, giving no regards to the reality.
Just check out the Roe highway, in W.A to find out how Government policy, completely stuffs up a technical plan.
Almost every time a Government gets involved in a technical issue, their self serving interests overtake the technical aspects.
Best of luck thinking this will be any different.

 

[rederob]

And you think the politicians can sort that, without guidance from the technical side?

None of the points I made had anything to do with technical issues.

 

[sptrawler]

None of the points I made had anything to do with technical issues.

Im only interested in the technical side, the politics just ends up ruining a technically sound project.
The technical people should say, this is where we need to build the wind and solar farms, to strenghen the grid and get the best outcome regarding weather conditions, now politicians organise the land content by aquiring the locations.

 

[Smurf1976]

Almost out of juice again in NSW with AEMO looking to intervene (that is, cut some load). If so then that'll be the fourth time in a month, the others being 4th, 23rd and 31st of January.

Also two recent incidents in Victoria on the 30 December 2019 and 31 January 2020.

So it's all a bit precarious these days yes as many have warned would end up being the case. It'll get worse before it gets better.....

 

[sptrawler]

Looks as though the East Coast has got some gas reserves set aside, for generation.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01...-energy-deal-with-federal-government/11916314
From the article:
A "landmark" agreement between the Morrison and Berejiklian governments that will see more than $2 billion invested into a new gas-fuelled energy deal has been slammed as "climate criminality" by the Greens.
The bilateral deal aims to lower energy bills, strengthen the grid and reduce emissions throughout the state, through the "critical" supply of an additional 70 petajoules of gas into the east coast market.
Just one petajoule is enough gas to fuel a large regional centre like Wollongong, and NSW uses about 120 petajoules a year.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison said the deal would secure energy supply as Australia moves towards renewable power sources.

NSW will receive $960 million in federal funding to upgrade the energy grid and invest in emissions reductions initiatives.

The state and federal governments will jointly underwrite the grid upgrades in the HumeLink interconnector from Snowy Hydro to southern NSW, as well as the Queensland-NSW interconnector.
The plan also promises financial support for a new pilot renewable energy zone in the Central West to help large-scale renewable generators pump energy into the grid.
"NSW already has a pipeline of around $26 billion of large-scale renewable and non-renewable energy projects and the NSW Government has introduced a range of rebates to help keep prices down as well as a five-year, $1.4 billion Climate Change Fund," Ms Berejiklian said.

Chris Gambian from the Nature Conservation Council said it was good that action was being taken but "gas is not a realistic or viable transition fuel" in the long term.
"We seem to have taken a step towards a serious plan, rather than the rhetoric and bluster that we've seen in the past," he said.
"So, I hope that what we see today is a plan that'll take us forward for the next 10 or 20 years, and that we can just get on with the job of addressing climate change.

 

[rederob]

Looks as though the East Coast has got some gas reserves set aside, for generation.

Another massive subsidy to get fossil fuels into the grid while they otherwise remain in a policy vacuum.
Also from the press release:
"An undertaking from the NSW Government to remove barriers to coal supply to the Mount Piper Power Station."
So much for Morrison's action on climate!

 

[sptrawler]

Hydrogen/solar microgrids appear to be popular ATM.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/the-future-of-energy-generation-and-storage.29842/

From the article:
Queensland’s world heritage-listed Daintree region could be the site of an Australian-first solar power to hydrogen gas-based microgrid, with newly announced federal government funding tipped to help make the 100 per cent renewable project shovel ready.

As we reported here, the Morrison government last week unveiled plans to underwrite the establishment of up to 50 “affordable and reliable” renewable microgrids around the country, via a new $50.4 million purpose-built fund.
“This power will be used to help power the hydrogen cell; the hydrogen gas produced will be collected and stored and used to fuel large scale generators. The only by product of this system is hot water,” he told local paper Newsport.

Aslo in western Australia.
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/western-australia-denham-to-demonstrate-hydrogen-power/

https://horizonpower.com.au/our-community/news-events/news/denham-to-demonstrate-hydrogen-power/
From the article:
A solar farm will generate electricity which will power an electrolyser. The electrolyser splits water into hydrogen and oxygen, with the hydrogen to be stored in a fuel cell. The fuel cell generates electricity for Denham customers.

The benefit of this “green hydrogen to electricity” supply chain is that the storage of the hydrogen ensures the availability of power 24/7. By comparison, the electricity output from a conventional solar farm is dependent on the sun shining.

Horizon Power has sought expressions of interest for the supply of the hydrogen electrolyser and fuel cell and to design and construct of the plant. If the project is determined to be viable, construction would begin in February 2021.

 

[Smurf1976]

Also from the press release:
"An undertaking from the NSW Government to remove barriers to coal supply to the Mount Piper Power Station."
So much for Morrison's action on climate!

On one hand I agree.

On the other well it’s silly to have the newest coal-fired plant in NSW being constrained in operation due to insufficient coal with the gap filled by higher emissions sources.

 

[sptrawler]

I see the Federal Government is adding money, to fast track the second undersea HV cable to Tasmania (Marinus Link Project).

https://www.nationalresourcesreview...celerate-a-second-bass-strait-interconnector/