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yet land values on the urban fringe are more expensive than ever. They're getting smaller too. How do you explain that?

ps could you forgo your snide remarks. they're not appropriate in a public forum.

Development costs is the answer but I have explained all of this before.

P.S. As you have nade yourself the "snide remark police" I will refrain from commentng furthermore.
 
I think this article pretty much sums up what I have been alluding to: http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/06/property-prices/

Houses like everything else we buy depends on WHAT (and where) you buy.GTHO Phase III in 1971 = $5300.00 .... same car today in concourse condition INXS of $350,000.

But what is this? Surely this cannot be right? Effects of Housing Qualityhttp://www.econ.mq.edu.au/Econ_docs/research_papers2/2004_research_papers/Abelson_9_04.pdf
The analysis that home size and quality are major contributors to higher prices ignores all the other factors driving house price momentum in Australia as well. Yes house size and quality has increased but what about the cost per square meter (including land cost) to construct a home adjusted for inflation?

It's really nonsensical to argue that the price of Australian housing as a proportion of household incomes has not become historically distorted by any measure. Excerpt from an article in The Age today...

Australian homes are among the most expensive in the world when household incomes and rents are taken into account, International Monetary Fund figures show.

As part of a move to push governments to act against housing bubbles, the fund unveiled comparative data on Thursday morning intended to underline the high cost of homes.

It shows rising prices have pushed two key measures of home values - the ratios of house prices to incomes and prices to rents - well above their long-term averages.

With houses selling for more than four times the average household income, the IMF said this ratio in Australia was much higher than its historical average.

A 24-country comparison showed that Australian homes were second only to those of Belgium when judged by this measure.

The other metric it used to measure home values was the ratio of prices to rents. This was also much higher than the long-term average in Australia, which by this criterion ranked fifth most-expensive behind Belgium, Norway, New Zealand and Canada.

He also noted Australia was among a handful of countries where price-to-income and price-to-rent ratios were ''well above'' their historical averages.

The IMF data is the latest indication of the high cost of Australian housing, which some economists believe has started to deter buyers. In April, Barclays economist Kieran Davies said prices were ''flashing red'' with prices at 4.3 times household income and 28 times annual rent, both just below record highs.

Australian houses have long stood out as expensive when compared with other nations. But Mr Zhu conceded that detecting overvaluation was ''more art than science'' and it was important to also consider factors such as credit growth and household debt.

On this front, recent figures have been less dramatic. Latest Reserve Bank of Australia figures show housing lending growing at its fastest annual pace in three years, but it is still well below the pace reached before the global financial crisis.

Household debt as a share of disposable income is also at a three-year high, at 148.8 per cent, but remains below record highs.
 
The analysis that home size and quality are major contributors to higher prices ignores all the other factors driving house price momentum in Australia as well. Yes house size and quality has increased but what about the cost per square meter (including land cost) to construct a home adjusted for inflation?

It's really nonsensical to argue that the price of Australian housing as a proportion of household incomes has not become historically distorted by any measure. Excerpt from an article in The Age today...

Why don't you go and do the research yourself and let us all know if you are so worried about the cost per square meter (including land cost) to construct a home adjusted for inflation ;)

I was pointing out to sydboy007 some "other" contributing factors as to WHY the price-to-income ratios were so distorted. All I hear is how HARD it is to own a home and how AFFORDABILITY is beyond the reach of the layman and the poor little diddums have to live OMG in the outer suburbs and not able to walk to work.

Babies crawl before they walk.
 
I was pointing out to sydboy007 some "other" contributing factors as to WHY the price-to-income ratios were so distorted. All I hear is how HARD it is to own a home and how AFFORDABILITY is beyond the reach of the layman...
Perhaps that's due to the reality that housing affordability is an important issue to many, just not to you. Your unsypathetic and patronizing tone shows you just don't give a damn about the impact of housing affordability. That's fine, but why denigrate those who do or those impacted by this issue?
 
Perhaps that's due to the reality that housing affordability is an important issue to many, just not to you. Your unsypathetic and patronizing tone shows you just don't give a damn about the impact of housing affordability. That's fine, but why denigrate those who do or those impacted by this issue?

Housing affordability is a very important issue FxTrader .. don't get me wrong. My issue is using "mean averages" when the likes of Sydney and Melbourne prices is skewiffing the results. It is not good logic to only look at one small piece of the equation and come to an "informed" opinion on the subject matter. Sydboy007 is on the side of it's all to hard, ponzi scheme, affordability, housing bubble (insert negative aspirations here) side but only a few posts ago he was bragging how cheaply he bought a house in inner city Sydney and how much it is worth today. Hypocritical at best IMO ... no?

I am unsympathetic when people demand that it is their right to own a penthouse in the CBD and walk to work as a FHB. This truly sticks in my craw as the new age of entitlement Gen ? whatever's want their cake and eat it too. My first house was a 3 bedroom in the outer burbs, no driveway, no paint to walls, no window sills, no insulation, tiny bedrooms, small kitchen .... you get my drift right?

I am merely pointing out that by posting "the mean average house affordability is 7 times the average wage compared to 1970 when it was only 3" is not exactly the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Yeah sure it is a statistic but there are many outliers and variables that need to be considered as to WHY this has happened which no one seems to mention when they post. Just another headline and not much substance as to WHY this has occurred. Nevermind the house we live in at 2014 is 4 times the size of the house in 1970. Nevermind the loan we have on the aforementioned house also has consolidated the car loan/credit card and big screen TV in every room. Getting warmer now?

As for my posting style it is not for the feint hearted. If people are willing to post redonkolous claims without any substance other than charts stolen from Steven Keenes website then I was under the impression that there is a right of reply with equal amount of redonkolous claims the other way. If this is interpreted as denigrating or patronizing to their opinion then I apologize in the first instance if I have offended their over sensitive egos.

As I actually dabble in real estate and have a little bit of practice on the subject matter at hand other than buying one house and being a slave to a mortgage than I assumed (wrongly as it turns out) that my experience would be taken with more than a grain of salt.

But I digress ... real estate is a commodity like any other that can be bought and sold to make a profit. It is all in the timing and location. I currently have 4000m2 of zoned CBD for either a 30 unit motel site or 2 storey town houses. As the market in the city where it is located has gone off the boil I am prepared to sit on it until the market cycles yet again.

But what would I know ...
 
Watching this thread with interest. We're thinking of buying a property in Australia soon. My wife wants to go and have a look soon and I've been saying that things looked a bit frothy around Sydney. One of her friends is a builder in Brisbane and he was saying that Brisbane was one of the better 'buys' at the moment.

This would be a property that we would buy now to live in later. Perhaps we would rent it out for a while, a few years.

The US is the best place for bargains, but i couldn't stand living there amongst so many insular self centered rednecks, so whats the point?

CanOz

CanOz posted this on the 14th April 2012 ... to start thinking about it then and 15th May 2014 to pull the trigger. Not bad going CanOz :D

6.1% growth in 2012, 14.5% in 2013 and so far 15.7% in 2014 for Sydney growth rates. :eek:
 
Housing affordability is a very important issue FxTrader .. don't get me wrong. My issue is using "mean averages" when the likes of Sydney and Melbourne prices is skewiffing the results. It is not good logic to only look at one small piece of the equation and come to an "informed" opinion on the subject matter. Sydboy007 is on the side of it's all to hard, ponzi scheme, affordability, housing bubble (insert negative aspirations here) side but only a few posts ago he was bragging how cheaply he bought a house in inner city Sydney and how much it is worth today. Hypocritical at best IMO ... no?

I am unsympathetic when people demand that it is their right to own a penthouse in the CBD and walk to work as a FHB. This truly sticks in my craw as the new age of entitlement Gen ? whatever's want their cake and eat it too. My first house was a 3 bedroom in the outer burbs, no driveway, no paint to walls, no window sills, no insulation, tiny bedrooms, small kitchen .... you get my drift right?

I am merely pointing out that by posting "the mean average house affordability is 7 times the average wage compared to 1970 when it was only 3" is not exactly the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Yeah sure it is a statistic but there are many outliers and variables that need to be considered as to WHY this has happened which no one seems to mention when they post. Just another headline and not much substance as to WHY this has occurred. Nevermind the house we live in at 2014 is 4 times the size of the house in 1970. Nevermind the loan we have on the aforementioned house also has consolidated the car loan/credit card and big screen TV in every room. Getting warmer now?

As for my posting style it is not for the feint hearted. If people are willing to post redonkolous claims without any substance other than charts stolen from Steven Keenes website then I was under the impression that there is a right of reply with equal amount of redonkolous claims the other way. If this is interpreted as denigrating or patronizing to their opinion then I apologize in the first instance if I have offended their over sensitive egos.

As I actually dabble in real estate and have a little bit of practice on the subject matter at hand other than buying one house and being a slave to a mortgage than I assumed (wrongly as it turns out) that my experience would be taken with more than a grain of salt.

But I digress ... real estate is a commodity like any other that can be bought and sold to make a profit. It is all in the timing and location. I currently have 4000m2 of zoned CBD for either a 30 unit motel site or 2 storey town houses. As the market in the city where it is located has gone off the boil I am prepared to sit on it until the market cycles yet again.

But what would I know ...

I honestly don't know where you are coming from Trainspotter?

For the uninitiated, you are a failed property developer (Horizon Homes). No excuses.

You have an ego bigger than the state you live in.

You post views from your abode (not even waterfront) and try to impress people.

****ing try hard.
 
I honestly don't know where you are coming from Trainspotter?

For the uninitiated, you are a failed property developer (Horizon Homes). No excuses.

You have an ego bigger than the state you live in.

You post views from your abode (not even waterfront) and try to impress people.

****ing try hard.

Macquack that's literally added nothing to this conversation except pathetic personal attacks. Are we to only take input from people sipping champagne on their yachts at Marina Mirage? Historically that hasn't ended too well either. Do we need to post our CV to have an opinion?

Trainspotter I don't agree with everything you say but I appreciate many of your posts because they generally contain more than "No, I'm right and your generation are the worst ever!" Getting involved in a game of getting 1 up on others doesn't help - you can put your perspective out there but it's hardly worth the energy to convince others to share it.

"forum
noun
1. a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged."

To some of the posters who seem to have forgotten what a forum is for, it's for sharing opinions and viewpoints in the hope that we might learn something from each other or get a different perspective to those we are used to. You don't need to agree, just try to keep the level of responses above
b2882-monkey_poo_for_you_pt1_by_jays_dood.jpg
 
I honestly don't know where you are coming from Trainspotter?

For the uninitiated, you are a failed property developer (Horizon Homes). No excuses.

You have an ego bigger than the state you live in.

You post views from your abode (not even waterfront) and try to impress people.

****ing try hard.

Thanks for the words of encouragement Macquack !

Errmmmm ... not quite old chum, you are gilding the lily somewhat there. The building company that was building a development I was involved in went bankrupt and not me or my companies. I am sure Horizon Homes would like to know they have gone bankrupt ! http://www.horizon-homes.com.au/contacts.html

You have to have big Kahunas to take a punt as to whether the people are going to buy what you are putting on the ground.

Waterfront living is not what it is cracked up to be. Better to be up the hill a bit with uninterrupted views of the ocean as you look down on the people in the waterfront ;)

But thanks again for your poignant words of wisdom :xyxthumbs
 
Macquack that's literally added nothing to this conversation except pathetic personal attacks. Are we to only take input from people sipping champagne on their yachts at Marina Mirage? Historically that hasn't ended too well either. Do we need to post our CV to have an opinion?

Trainspotter I don't agree with everything you say but I appreciate many of your posts because they generally contain more than "No, I'm right and your generation are the worst ever!" Getting involved in a game of getting 1 up on others doesn't help - you can put your perspective out there but it's hardly worth the energy to convince others to share it.

"forum
noun
1. a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged."

To some of the posters who seem to have forgotten what a forum is for, it's for sharing opinions and viewpoints in the hope that we might learn something from each other or get a different perspective to those we are used to. You don't need to agree, just try to keep the level of responses above
+1. I've learned so much from this forum, TS included.
 
Trainspotter,
I aften disagree with you but just want to add, as the others:
I appreciate your input as I do Syd, and was not amused by what I consider a personal attack against you;
let this not prevent you from further debate entries!!
have a great week end
 
I honestly don't know where you are coming from Trainspotter?

For the uninitiated, you are a failed property developer (Horizon Homes). No excuses.

You have an ego bigger than the state you live in.

You post views from your abode (not even waterfront) and try to impress people.

****ing try hard.

Are you sure that you don't know?

When I see or hear people making such statements, I often get the impression that they are making a concerted effort to misunderstand!

Basically they don't actually want to know or entertain any information that conflicts with their personal fantasy!!!!

On the topic of failure, there's a popular saying that goes something like this:

"The man that never made a mistake never made anything!"

The first property I ever bought was an apt reflection of my inexperience, but the last property I bought and sold was a glowing reflection of my accumulated experience.
 
Waterfront living is not what it is cracked up to be. Better to be up the hill a bit with uninterrupted views of the ocean as you look down on the people in the waterfront ;)

So true. I was excited to live in a waterfront apartment for 2 years. Even my knives in the chopping blocks managed to go rusty in that time period. The metal thing that holds shampoo etc in the shower rusted and had to be replaced with a plastic one, my cofee table with a metal frame rusted, everything that had metal managed to rust with the damp salty sea breeze!

I'll be happy to move a few blocks away up a hill :)
 
Whilst I cannot claim to be Mr Calm, and have had heated exchanges with fellow ASFers

I must say Macquack's post is a little too personal.

I am sure that it was said at a time of frustration?? or such, TY TS for a civil response. Hopefully personal attacks end there.

I Like both Macquack's posts and TS's posts on these forums, and hope they continue.

MW

Edit: Just read down to Vixs' post.. said much better than mine... but there you go!
 
Yes a little bit unfortunate. However as many are aware there are two valid ways of dealing with it one being the Ignore function. The other is just as effective. It's the scroll wheel on the mouse, simply ignoring any supposed slight and not responding or reacting to a post. Works for me.

:1luvu: youse all. :p:
 
The buyers started queuing at about 7.30am for their allotted appointment with a sales agent. There was little doubt that Sydney's latest off-the-plan offering - Darling Square at Darling Harbour - was going to be a sell-out.

And by late afternoon on Saturday it was.

Lend Lease executive project director, Rob Deck, said there were more than 5000 inquiries in the lead up to Saturday's public launch for the 40-storey tower on the site of the Entertainment Centre and a seven-storey "boutique" block beside it.

...

On Saturday evening, Lend Lease confirmed prices had ranged between $700,000 and more than $3.5 million.

Mr Brown said the premium apartment market was as strong as he's experienced in 20 years.

"The quality of current development, limited supply and strong local and international demand is driving the demand and we believe there will be strong growth over the coming five-year period," Mr Brown said.

Kel Fitzalan, 44, of Lavender Bay, a partner at PriceWaterhouse Coopers, was so excited about Darling Square he bought two apartments - a one-bedder with a study on the 24th floor for $1 million and a two-bedder on level 26 for $1.6 million.

"I've got an eight-year-old and a 10-year-old and hopefully in 10 years time it's somewhere they can stay when they're going to university," Mr Fitzalan said.

They would be rental properties initially, once the building is complete in 2017, and he has little doubt he'll find a tenant. "With the way that city traffic's going, people want to be closer to their work and they want to be close to university," he said.

"I'm very confident there will be great demand for rental."

http://smh.domain.com.au/real-estate-news/darling-square-sells-out-off-the-plan-20140621-zsha6.html
 
Ermmmmm you did not get what I posted obviously. The home loans are MASSIVE because the house sizes are a lot larger. Surely syd you of all people can recognise this fact? If they have hit retirement age and still have a mortgage debt is mainly due to them SPENDING on filling their BIGGER houses and keeping up with the Joneses' with the latest doodads that they must have. Consumerism and all that ... we are no longer content to raise 6 kids in the 3 bedroom bungalow and keep the single roof over our heads ....... OH WHY BOTHER ! :banghead:

You are right .... property is doomed we should all just do a Steven Keen and sell now and avoid losing 50% of our home value when this massive ponzi scheme comes crashing down :cry:

Now THAT is a load of nonsense. Raising 6 kids in a 3 bedroom bungalow was never the norm but was and still is the sole domain of the irresponsible.
 
Macquack that's literally added nothing to this conversation except pathetic personal attacks. Are we to only take input from people sipping champagne on their yachts at Marina Mirage? Historically that hasn't ended too well either. Do we need to post our CV to have an opinion?

Trainspotter I don't agree with everything you say but I appreciate many of your posts because they generally contain more than "No, I'm right and your generation are the worst ever!" Getting involved in a game of getting 1 up on others doesn't help - you can put your perspective out there but it's hardly worth the energy to convince others to share it.

"forum
noun
1. a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged."

To some of the posters who seem to have forgotten what a forum is for, it's for sharing opinions and viewpoints in the hope that we might learn something from each other or get a different perspective to those we are used to. You don't need to agree, just try to keep the level of responses above
View attachment 58396


Trainspotter is the one handing out the personal attacks. A FHB wanting a CBD penthouse ? Really ?

Those types of "views" are highly over done and highly offensive. That being said he is allowed to have his point of view but when someone calls him on it and calls a spade a spade I don't know why you start suddenly running for the "personal attack" cover when the entire discussion started from a page long personal attack on renters and FHBers.
 
Now THAT is a load of nonsense. Raising 6 kids in a 3 bedroom bungalow was never the norm but was and still is the sole domain of the irresponsible.

Well, not the norm for maybe the last 40ish years, but I live in the (very) inner west of Sydney and there's lots of the old workers cottages from when this area was quite industrial. I do not know how families of 6 or more lived in what was a living room, bedroom, kitchen and ~30-40 sqm "backyard" but it seems with the continual reduction from the 1/4 acre block to the near dog boxes / chicken coup apartments being build that this is the future we are rushing towards.

Maybe we were too greedy with our space requirements before? Maybe we'll just have to accept that able to fit a double bed and not much else are the norm these days?

If there wasn't SD, and a host of other expenses, with house sales and purchases then maybe buying and trading up over the years makes sense, but if you only get 1 bite at the cherry, and you start out affordable ie 3 or 4 times the median income for a couple which is around $300-400K you might just be able to get something in the 3BR range which will allow you to have kids and not have to move till the oldest is getting up around 10. The next property purchase could end up quite expensive depending on the SD and other factors. Too often the transaction costs are forgotten about. For example, in NSW a non FHB looking at a 400K property is up for 13.5K in SD. If they happened to be trading up and looking at a 600K property (which in Sydney is nothing flash) then they'd be up for 22.5K. Add in removal and legal fees and it's quite likely they'd be paying out a years worth of interest just to "upgrade" when it's more like acquiring a liveable level of living space rather than a true upgrade.
 
I grew up in a 3 X 1 with 3 kids with only 1 lounge room and a small asian car for a family car it was fine... both of my folks were probably only on close to or on the minimum wage it was fine. People cry and carry on about all this stuff we supposedly have but it is really only our rich masters and DINK couples or young people who are lucky enough to have a high income that get it.

For me to buy the house I grew up in is about $350,000k now which I cannot really afford as I now only earn 88k a year which works to about $1200 a week after tax. I could only just afford to pay it off after 30 years on my current income if rates never went up and I never had any actual human adult wage earning expenses. That is the contrast between now and 30 years ago. My folks driving a taxi and working at Coles could buy something I can't afford on a supposedly decent wage. Before you kick me in the guts and say 88k plus super is peanuts (which I know it is peanuts) it is also a fairly hard wage to get. Unless you are a tradesman or something in which case you are probably already a property owner. I earn more than literally every other graduate I know. So I don't know where all these engineering/com sci ect graduates on 100k a year with 5 years of experience are, I guess there are not many. That is what most of my friends did and I out earn them. The only ones who out earn me are TRADESMEN. And they are all loaded.

I have lived most of my adult life in share housing, which means my personal space is only one room. I am currently renting a one bedroom apartment... because I can.

Meanwhile my folks live on their own in a massive house with spare bedrooms and a huge lounge with all the fancy appliances. They also have new cars and spend money like I can't understand how.

I don't begrudge them for it as they have worked hard and made their own fortune, but the generation divide is stark.

Often boomers are just reflecting on how they hate their own personal life style choices as too materialistic.

A lot of what they complain about in terms of young people is just young people competing for the chance to mate. The girls need to look good and the boys need to do a whole bunch of other stuff I can't be bothered listing.
 
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