Should the Australian Government provide drought relief funds for farmers?

[luutzu]

Dude, the water company pays nothing for its water either.

When you quote $2M as the cost the city pays for pumping their water, that is the running cost of running their pumps and related infrastrute.

It’s not a $2M water access fee, both Nestle and the water company have large infrastructure and energy costs related to pumping the water.

Nestle probably spend $2 Million or more pumping water too.

Why should the water company be allowed to free access to the water while The bottling company has to pay? Both are supply water to the population.

Wot.

How come oil, gas, miners etc. all pay a royalty but water is a free for all?

I don't know the details of Flint's public water company vs Nestle', but let's assume that they both are charge the same nothing for the water they pump.

It could be argued that since a publicly owned, ie. gov't owned, water company distributing water to the population has more right to free water than a for-profit, privately owned corporation.

The two are not the same entity.

Gov't corporation... yes, if the gov't charge themselves for the water, the residents will be the one ending up paying for it as they all basically consume it. So it is a public good to not charge. Keep it as cheap as possible.

For profit corporations... they're selling it to their consumers. Not all of whom are the local resident, or the state or national citizens. So in them not being charged for water, the entire public is subsidising nestle's shareholders' and consumers.

And as we know, corporate profit is a funny thing when it comes to tax time. It also have a habit of going elsewhere instead of directly benefiting the local resident.

 

[Value Collector]

Wot.

How come oil, gas, miners etc. all pay a royalty but water is a free for all?

I don't know the details of Flint's public water company vs Nestle', but let's assume that they both are charge the same nothing for the water they pump.

It could be argued that since a publicly owned, ie. gov't owned, water company distributing water to the population has more right to free water than a for-profit, privately owned corporation.

The two are not the same entity.

Gov't corporation... yes, if the gov't charge themselves for the water, the residents will be the one ending up paying for it as they all basically consume it. So it is a public good to not charge. Keep it as cheap as possible.

For profit corporations... they're selling it to their consumers. Not all of whom are the local resident, or the state or national citizens. So in them not being charged for water, the entire public is subsidising nestle's shareholders' and consumers.

And as we know, corporate profit is a funny thing when it comes to tax time. It also have a habit of going elsewhere instead of directly benefiting the local resident.

Firstly in a lot of states in the USA you don’t pay a royalty on oil and gas, if you can drill it from your property it’s yours, mineral rights come with land ownership.

Secondly, royalties are a form of taxation, and generally governments are ok with taxing minerals and oil, but most governments see drinking water as a human right, so don’t subject it to taxation, they only charge for the service of purifying and distributing it, which takes capital, and those providing the capital deserve to earn a return on the funds they lay out.

Even state run water systems rely on private funding, most are funded via municipal bonds, so the investors earn money on their capital via interest payments.

Or are you against bond holders earning interest too?

Anyway, the way I see it, if you are pumping water to supply drinking water to the public, then any amount the government charges you to access the water is a government tax on drinking water, which in my view is silly.

 

[luutzu]

Firstly in a lot of states in the USA you don’t pay a royalty on oil and gas, if you can drill it from your property it’s yours, mineral rights come with land ownership.

Secondly, royalties are a form of taxation, and generally governments are ok with taxing minerals and oil, but most governments see drinking water as a human right, so don’t subject it to taxation, they only charge for the service of purifying and distributing it, which takes capital, and those providing the capital deserve to earn a return on the funds they lay out.

Even state run water systems rely on private funding, most are funded via municipal bonds, so the investors earn money on their capital via interest payments.

Or are you against bond holders earning interest too?

Anyway, the way I see it, if you are pumping water to supply drinking water to the public, then any amount the government charges you to access the water is a government tax on drinking water, which in my view is silly.

Where did you get the idea that I'm anti-capitalist?

So if investor put out the cash "to create jobs" and do all that great things for humanity, sure they ought to get a return.

But when they are underhanded and screw people over (legally or otherwise), that's not being a capitalist, that's just screwing people over for money.

And it's not just a moral stance etc., it's so that you do not kill the host. Shouldn't do it because you end up losing everything.

So for the likes of Nestle' to pump water at the cost of its "capital" to run the pump and fill the bottles etc., paying nothing for the water, all the while their neighbours are literally getting poisoned. That's not right dude. And no glossy ad about Nestle' bringing water to humanity is going to be swallowed by those in Flint.

There's a perfect example in the 90s in some S/American country where a foreign equity firm got some deal with the gov't to own the city's water. They then set about milking it. Charging what turned out to be some 1/3rd the average person's wage to buy water.

The pitchforks came out and the investors ran home to Washington, asking for help to get their money back.

 

[Value Collector]

So if investor put out the cash "to create jobs" and do all that great things for humanity, sure they ought to get a return.


.

So you don't think employing people, and pumping water from under ground, purifying it and bringing it to the cities in convenient handy packs is a good thing?

But when they are underhanded and screw people over (legally or otherwise), that's not being a capitalist, that's just screwing people over for money.

There is nothing underhanded, and they aren't screwing people over you just like to interpret things that was for some reason.

Nestle aren't even the biggest player in this market, they have 10% market share, if they were making unusually high returns on their capital you can bet the other players in the market would be under cutting them, Coke and Pepsi for example have huge water businesses.

I am not sure if you have been to the USA, but if you have ever been to wall mart etc, you will see bottled water is super cheap.

Any way I am out of this convo.

 

[SirRumpole]

I am not sure if you have been to the USA, but if you have ever been to wall mart etc, you will see bottled water is super cheap.

According to the Australian Museum the cost of tap water is 1 cent per litre compared to bottled water which costs $2.53. It might not sound like a lot, but if you consider that around 600 million litres of bottled water is consumed by offices and residences across Australia per year it all adds up. That’s over 1.5 billion dollars spent just on bottled water, all whilst you’re already paying for an unlimited supply of water through your building’s mains supply.

If every business and resident across Australia switched all their water consumption over to tap water, the cost would drop from the staggering 1.5 billion dollars per year to the much more acceptable 6 million dollars per year. We’re sure homes and businesses can put that money to better use than paying for something that’s already being dispensed in their building.

As if you needed any other reason to drop that bottle, there’s also our green earth to think about.

According to The Australian museum, manufacturing the plastic bottles that are used in Australia each year calls for more than 400,000 barrels of oil to be used. And unfortunately, approximately 7 billion of these recyclable plastic water bottles end up in landfills or our oceans every year.

You might not even consider it, but it also takes water to make water. According to the Pacific Institute, it takes 3 litres of water to produce just 1 litre of bottled water. And guess what? 45% of the world’s bottled water actually comes from municipal water supply systems (also known as “tap water”). That’s right, major bottled water companies get about 55% of their water from natural springs but the rest is essentially tap water that is treated in their plants and filtration systems.

Under your tap is an endless supply


Many may argue that taste and overall quality of city water is a reason to not drink straight from your tap. However, you can actually convert that same source of water into clean, pure tasting water with each glass.

There are numerous filtration systems that will help remove the impurities that are known to swim around in your tap-water-filled glass. These filtration systems are water coolers that connect directly to your building’s water line and will filter the water before it hits your cup. Not only will you stop adding plastic jugs or bottles to landfills but your company or home will save money as well.

Plus, if you use your building’s tap water at work you won’t have to worry about the many inconveniences that bottled water brings, such as:

• running out of water,
• lifting those heavy bottles,
• finding a place to store full and empty plastic bottles,
• and interruptions of your busy work day for water delivery.

With that being said, not all mains fed water coolers strive to meet the qualities that we deliver here at Waterlogic with our coolers. We understand it’s all about having the right filtration to meet your water needs and we provide what is needed for your drinking glass.

• Carbon Filtration: Our carbon filters purify your water to remove contaminants, chlorine and other waterborne bad tastes and odors. Carbon makes for the ultimate filter because it’s amazingly porous, so it grabs and holds onto impurities from pesticides to lead, petro-chemicals to microscopic cysts, and removes toxins and discoloration, leaving you with clear, fresh water.
• UV Purification: Our UV purification system places the UV lamp inside the bottleless water cooler in order to destroy the DNA core of contaminants, eliminating E. Coli, Salmonella, Hepatitis and other water impurities. The water in the tank receives powerful doses of UV energy, wiping out bacteria but doing nothing to alter the fresh, cleansed taste of every inviting drop you drink.
• Firewall: We took our already great UV technology and made it even greater with our patent technology, FirewallTM. With Firewall, not only does the water dispenser have the carbon filtration and the UV Purification but it also has a UV lamp positioned at the point of dispense, obliterating germs milliseconds before the water lands in your cup. This technology gives you 99.9999% purity, 100% of the time.

Our water dispensers can kill 99.9999% of bacteria in your tap water... find out more!
Conclusion


Overall, we know that sometimes bottled water is thought to be a necessity in order to get clean, purified water at home or for your employees, but that’s just not true. In terms of purification, Waterlogic water cooler systems can provide you with even better water quality then a purchased water bottle. By using your own purified tap water instead of purchasing bottles you’re contribute to being eco-friendly, save your company money and save yourself (or another employee) the headache that is brought on by all the inconveniences of water delivery.

Plus, with almost the majority of bottled water coming straight from municipal source that has been filtered – why not cut out the middle-man and purify your tap water with a quality system.

// Apologies for the advertisement I thought it was just an analysis of tap v bottled water. But I would say that the facts still hold up.

 

[luutzu]

So you don't think employing people, and pumping water from under ground, purifying it and bringing it to the cities in convenient handy packs is a good thing?

There is nothing underhanded, and they aren't screwing people over you just like to interpret things that was for some reason.

Nestle aren't even the biggest player in this market, they have 10% market share, if they were making unusually high returns on their capital you can bet the other players in the market would be under cutting them, Coke and Pepsi for example have huge water businesses.

I am not sure if you have been to the USA, but if you have ever been to wall mart etc, you will see bottled water is super cheap.

Any way I am out of this convo.

I'm just taking a holistic view of the water market. Flint and Nestle' was just an example that I've heard of.

Yea, Nestle' will say the same thing you're saying... that if there are taxes or more expense on the water it pumps, it'll pass that on to consumers. So keep the fee close to zero, Nestle' makes money by bringing good quality stuff to consumers dying of thirst for its goods.

Well, who else is paying for that low, low prices Nestle' is getting?

The Flint residence.

How?

No cost to Nestle' also mean less revenue to the City for its infrastructure. Less fees mean short cuts, higher prices for the city's residence.

But that's not Nestle's problem. It just pumps the water out. Ship all over the States, along with its profit.

And if you run Nestle's water division, and the city's water infrastructure crumbles, will you be in a hurry to help them fix that competitor? You would probably do all you can, legally (or not, depends on who's watching), to destroy that competitor.

This is why, I reckon, the US have over 3,000 of its cities' water infrastructure contaminated at level above Flint. And nobody's doing anything about it. People living there know to buy bottled water for their food stuff.

There are public interests and there are things privateers can do well. We shouldn't think that private enterprises have the same interests as public ones.

Anyway...

 

[CanOz]

I drink tap water in winter and filtered tap water in summer.

 

[SirRumpole]

I drink tap water in winter and filtered tap water in summer.

It's just bore and rainwater where I am.

 

[Smurf1976]

So far as drinking the stuff is concerned, I see no point in the whole bottled water industry and consider it pretty much a scam really, albeit one that consumers have been willing to go along with.

If I'm going to pay a high price for liquid in a bottle then why on earth would I choose water which comes out of the tap at 0.1 cents per litre? If I'm going to pay an aorder of magnitude higher price then I'll get fruit juice, soft drinks, milk or alcohol which actually warrants being put in bottles not water which falls from the sky.

There's no reason to not drink the tap water in any Australian city and likewise it's find in developed countries overseas and many but not all third world countries also have tap water that's just fine.

The only real point I can see in bottled water is that it would be useful for governments, the UN and so on to have a few warehouses full of it to distribute when there's some sort of natural disaster. For that it makes sense but for anything else it's a silly concept in my view. Using resources and polluting for the sake of it really.

 

[luutzu]

So far as drinking the stuff is concerned, I see no point in the whole bottled water industry and consider it pretty much a scam really, albeit one that consumers have been willing to go along with.

If I'm going to pay a high price for liquid in a bottle then why on earth would I choose water which comes out of the tap at 0.1 cents per litre? If I'm going to pay an aorder of magnitude higher price then I'll get fruit juice, soft drinks, milk or alcohol which actually warrants being put in bottles not water which falls from the sky.

There's no reason to not drink the tap water in any Australian city and likewise it's find in developed countries overseas and many but not all third world countries also have tap water that's just fine.

The only real point I can see in bottled water is that it would be useful for governments, the UN and so on to have a few warehouses full of it to distribute when there's some sort of natural disaster. For that it makes sense but for anything else it's a silly concept in my view. Using resources and polluting for the sake of it really.

Saw on one of our news channel a few years ago where some very enterprising Sydney businessman simply bottled the tap water and sell it to the likes of Woolies/Coles etc.

He didn't have "tap water" on the bottle for obvious reason. but yea, It's perfectly fine to do that and make a few hundred percent profit.

 

[Value Collector]

According to the Australian Museum the cost of tap water is 1 cent per litre compared to bottled water which costs $2.53. It might not sound like a lot, but if you consider that around 600 million litres of bottled water is consumed by offices and residences across Australia per year it all adds up. That’s over 1.5 billion dollars spent just on bottled water, all whilst you’re already paying for an unlimited supply of water through your building’s mains supply.

If every business and resident across Australia switched all their water consumption over to tap water, the cost would drop from the staggering 1.5 billion dollars per year to the much more acceptable 6 million dollars per year. We’re sure homes and businesses can put that money to better use than paying for something that’s already being dispensed in their building.

As if you needed any other reason to drop that bottle, there’s also our green earth to think about.

According to The Australian museum, manufacturing the plastic bottles that are used in Australia each year calls for more than 400,000 barrels of oil to be used. And unfortunately, approximately 7 billion of these recyclable plastic water bottles end up in landfills or our oceans every year.

You might not even consider it, but it also takes water to make water. According to the Pacific Institute, it takes 3 litres of water to produce just 1 litre of bottled water. And guess what? 45% of the world’s bottled water actually comes from municipal water supply systems (also known as “tap water”). That’s right, major bottled water companies get about 55% of their water from natural springs but the rest is essentially tap water that is treated in their plants and filtration systems.

Under your tap is an endless supply


Many may argue that taste and overall quality of city water is a reason to not drink straight from your tap. However, you can actually convert that same source of water into clean, pure tasting water with each glass.

There are numerous filtration systems that will help remove the impurities that are known to swim around in your tap-water-filled glass. These filtration systems are water coolers that connect directly to your building’s water line and will filter the water before it hits your cup. Not only will you stop adding plastic jugs or bottles to landfills but your company or home will save money as well.

Plus, if you use your building’s tap water at work you won’t have to worry about the many inconveniences that bottled water brings, such as:

• running out of water,
• lifting those heavy bottles,
• finding a place to store full and empty plastic bottles,
• and interruptions of your busy work day for water delivery.

With that being said, not all mains fed water coolers strive to meet the qualities that we deliver here at Waterlogic with our coolers. We understand it’s all about having the right filtration to meet your water needs and we provide what is needed for your drinking glass.

• Carbon Filtration: Our carbon filters purify your water to remove contaminants, chlorine and other waterborne bad tastes and odors. Carbon makes for the ultimate filter because it’s amazingly porous, so it grabs and holds onto impurities from pesticides to lead, petro-chemicals to microscopic cysts, and removes toxins and discoloration, leaving you with clear, fresh water.
• UV Purification: Our UV purification system places the UV lamp inside the bottleless water cooler in order to destroy the DNA core of contaminants, eliminating E. Coli, Salmonella, Hepatitis and other water impurities. The water in the tank receives powerful doses of UV energy, wiping out bacteria but doing nothing to alter the fresh, cleansed taste of every inviting drop you drink.
• Firewall: We took our already great UV technology and made it even greater with our patent technology, FirewallTM. With Firewall, not only does the water dispenser have the carbon filtration and the UV Purification but it also has a UV lamp positioned at the point of dispense, obliterating germs milliseconds before the water lands in your cup. This technology gives you 99.9999% purity, 100% of the time.

Our water dispensers can kill 99.9999% of bacteria in your tap water... find out more!
Conclusion


Overall, we know that sometimes bottled water is thought to be a necessity in order to get clean, purified water at home or for your employees, but that’s just not true. In terms of purification, Waterlogic water cooler systems can provide you with even better water quality then a purchased water bottle. By using your own purified tap water instead of purchasing bottles you’re contribute to being eco-friendly, save your company money and save yourself (or another employee) the headache that is brought on by all the inconveniences of water delivery.

Plus, with almost the majority of bottled water coming straight from municipal source that has been filtered – why not cut out the middle-man and purify your tap water with a quality system.

// Apologies for the advertisement I thought it was just an analysis of tap v bottled water. But I would say that the facts still hold up.

Of course tap water is cheaper the bottled water, I was simply pointing out that bottled water in the states is super cheap compared to bottled water else where.

Which is a clear sign the market is competitive, and that makes it unlikely the companies involved are making excessive profits.

 

[Value Collector]

So far as drinking the stuff is concerned, I see no point in the whole bottled water industry and consider it pretty much a scam really, albeit one that consumers have been willing to go along with.

If I'm going to pay a high price for liquid in a bottle then why on earth would I choose water which comes out of the tap at 0.1 cents per litre? If I'm going to pay an aorder of magnitude higher price then I'll get fruit juice, soft drinks, milk or alcohol which actually warrants being put in bottles not water which falls from the sky.

There's no reason to not drink the tap water in any Australian city and likewise it's find in developed countries overseas and many but not all third world countries also have tap water that's just fine.

The only real point I can see in bottled water is that it would be useful for governments, the UN and so on to have a few warehouses full of it to distribute when there's some sort of natural disaster. For that it makes sense but for anything else it's a silly concept in my view. Using resources and polluting for the sake of it really.

I drink tap water mostly to, but when you are thirsty you are thirsty, some times bottled water is just quick and easy, also sometimes in hotels etc I don’t really want to be drinking from the bathroom tap, so paying $3 for a 12 pack of water is better than catching a disease from a dirty faucet.

 

[Value Collector]

So you don't think employing people, and pumping water from under ground, purifying it and bringing it to the cities in convenient handy packs is a good thing?




There is nothing underhanded, and they aren't screwing people over you just like to interpret things that was for some reason.

Nestle aren't even the biggest player in this market, they have 10% market share, if they were making unusually high returns on their capital you can bet the other players in the market would be under cutting them, Coke and Pepsi for example have huge water businesses.

I am not sure if you have been to the USA, but if you have ever been to wall mart etc, you will see bottled water is super cheap.

Any way I am out of this convo.

Dude, the cities water infrastructure should be paid for by the water charges levied on those connected to and using it.

If the city has been mismanaging their water infrastructure that’s not nestles fault, they aren’t even connected to it, t has nothing to do with them.

But, nothing will convince you, you like to see the worst of people so as I said I am out

 

[SirRumpole]

I drink tap water mostly to, but when you are thirsty you are thirsty, some times bottled water is just quick and easy, also sometimes in hotels etc I don’t really want to be drinking from the bathroom tap, so paying $3 for a 12 pack of water is better than catching a disease from a dirty faucet.

To each their own.

But remember yo are contributing to the oil, electricity and water used to make the bottles, purify the water (if it actually is) , packing , storage and transportation, when a much cheaper alternative is available.

You could always fill a reusable plastic bottle with tap water and carry it with you. But whatever, maybe you have shares in a bottled water company.

 

[Value Collector]

To each their own.

But remember yo are contributing to the oil, electricity and water used to make the bottles, purify the water (if it actually is) , packing , storage and transportation, when a much cheaper alternative is available.

You could always fill a reusable plastic bottle with tap water and carry it with you. But whatever, maybe you have shares in a bottled water company.

As I said I only buy water bottles when staying in hotels where I don’t trust the tap that is 3 feet from the toilet.

If you really want to save resources and the environment go vegan, , The average meat eating diet consumes more resources than the bottled water does. the meat industry generates more greenhouse gases than the cars, trucks, planes, trains and ships combined.

But yeah, let’s all be misdirected by the water bottle industry.

I have no shares in bottled water companies outside my global index, and berkshires Coca-Cola holdings (that I know of)

 

[luutzu]

Dude, the cities water infrastructure should be paid for by the water charges levied on those connected to and using it.

If the city has been mismanaging their water infrastructure that’s not nestles fault, they aren’t even connected to it, t has nothing to do with them.

But, nothing will convince you, you like to see the worst of people so as I said I am out

I'm surprised you could convince yourself that a for-profit corporation draining the city's aquifer and paying nothing for it is a great thing for... for everyone.

I didn't say Nestle' directly cause the mismanagement of Flint's water infrastructure. Just that when it got granted permission to pump as it pleased for nothing, it's going to affect the decision of its competitors and the resultant consumer.

I think Smith call it the invisible finger raised up real high.

 

[luutzu]

To each their own.

But remember yo are contributing to the oil, electricity and water used to make the bottles, purify the water (if it actually is) , packing , storage and transportation, when a much cheaper alternative is available.

You could always fill a reusable plastic bottle with tap water and carry it with you. But whatever, maybe you have shares in a bottled water company.

I think he might be following Michael Bury's [that dude from The Big Short] advise and planning to to get into water.

Him being a nice enough guy, he can't get into it if it's bad.

 

[moXJO]

Years ago I use to do the maintenance on the waterboards water tanks around various cities.

Everyone would steal the aluminum roofing over the tanks.
Would always be finding dead stuff in them. They had signs up saying the water was electrified or some bs. But in another tank built into a hill, people would swim their horses in it. When I went in to look it was full of horse sht. Yummy.

 

[Tisme]

Years ago I use to do the maintenance on the waterboards water tanks around various cities.

Everyone would steal the aluminum roofing over the tanks.
Would always be finding dead stuff in them. They had signs up saying the water was electrified or some bs. But in another tank built into a hill, people would swim their horses in it. When I went in to look it was full of horse sht. Yummy.

Greenhill Reservoir in Brisbane was designated a dog park few years back. So people bring the dogs and the flies do the rest. What kind of clout is brought to bear where pet animal faeces are introduced in the the drinking water supply for human consumption?

 

[SirRumpole]

If you really want to save resources and the environment go vegan,

That's a deflection, although a relevant one. Many things can be done to reduce consumption of resources, including reducing the production of plastics.