Should the Australian Government provide drought relief funds for farmers?

[2020hindsight]

1. Quite simply, we're living off our capital rather than income and at some point that capital runs out.
2. No, it is about mothers giving birth in the cities (globally) and whether we ought to be limiting that in some way. That's a far harder question that few are willing to even discuss, let alone propose action on.
3. or outright war over all kinds of resources, food included. Wars do, of course, have the effect of reducing population if they are big enough and are thus terrifyingly effective when food is the underlying issue at stake.
4. Ultimately, the entire notion of infinite growth on a finite planet just doesn't stack up and we're only beginning to see the first signs of the limits being reached with water. Just wait until it's an actual food shortage...

1. and we're living off our capital cities.
2. mate the good news is that China and India are trying - and when we are 20 million (still) in about 2040 odd, China will be 1.48 billion (= 74:1) - Aussie Women shouldnt feel guilty about trying to procreate imho. (unless they'll late for work more than twice in a week )
3. yep youre right - almost there with fishing as you say - if not war then fish battles on large scale
4. I'm betting you 'll be proved at least 12% right within 12 months ! any takers ? (sorry m8 Im not being flippant - its deadly serious - trouble is I completely agree with you, and Im trying my damndest not to panic.) 12/10

PS good luck kids, it was too hard for us - please just...sort it out !!!

 

[Bobby]

So the government gives the farmers a couple a billion dollars.
Is that gonna be any skin off your nose?

Hello Blow,

Care to extrapolate on this? Your reasoning please.
Now I'm on side with you on this, so just open your thoughts of why you think what you think?

Bob.

 

[Julia]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20596580-29277,00.html

Drought relief generous, Howard says
October 17, 2006

THE Government's expanded drought relief package would be generous but would not go overboard, Prime Minister John Howard said today.

Mr Howard yesterday announced an extra $350 million to help struggling farmers. Federal Cabinet is considering a further $400 million in aid.

An announcement on the extra funding is expected within a week.

Mr Howard told a private meeting of government members and senators today that while climate change was a long-term challenge, the drought required an immediate response.

"The Government will be fair and will err on the side of generosity but won't abandon responsible decision-making," a joint partyroom spokesman quoted Mr Howard as telling the meeting.

"In responding to the drought the Government will be using a commonsense approach."

Treasurer Peter Costello said the drought was a serious economic issue and the Government was responding through income support and interest rate subsidies.

Mr Costello scoffed at the decision by the state premiers last week to write to the Reserve Bank urging it to keep interest rates on hold.

"This was nothing more than a stunt. State premiers have no responsibility for monetary policy in Australia, there's nothing they can do about it," the spokesman quoted Mr Costello as saying.

"They should focus on what they actually do have responsibility for and carry out those responsibilities."

Thanks for that reference chansw, but what I'd like to know is what that actually represents for an individual farmer, i.e. is it the equivalent of putting them on the dole, is it a lump sum interest free loan, just what exactly?

Julia

 

[Happy]

From ABC, October 18, 2006.
Academics question 'silly' EC funding

Researchers at the University of New England have criticised the use of Exceptional Circumstances (EC) drought funding, claiming it is keeping poor drought managers on farms.
Professor David Brunkhorst and Dr Ian Reeve from the Institute for Rural Futures at the northern NSW university say while welfare support should be encouraged, it is wrong to prop up farmers whose properties fail whenever there is a drought.
Dr Reeve says it is poor policy to provide EC funding on the basis that farming is part of our national identity.
He says it is "silly".
"It begs the question of what sort of farming and what sort of rural image do we want as our national identity?" he said.
"Do we want to have poorer drought managers who turn their properties into dust bowls every time there's a drought? Do we want that as our national identity?"

Only consolation is, we keep non performing politicians for years too.

We support with wealfare payments any individual in need, so why not failure farmers?

 

[nioka]

It's obvious from the discussion on this subject that most of the posters don't have any real knowledge of the facts. Do yourself a favour and meet some of the people involved and aquaint yourself with the real facts.

 

[Happy]

With respect to your implied deep knowledge of the subject.

Doing something, doesn’t necessarily mean that you know what you are doing and it doesn’t also mean that you should be doing it in a first place.

Let’s get of farmer’s back for a while, as it looks like delicate subject.

A lot of people have children and one would assume that this is natural and everybody is equally suited to have them, well I’ll disagree here too.

 

[ghotib]

The NSW 7.30 Report story last night about drought included an interview with the head of Water Services Australia, which is a peak body for water services around the country. He commented that "The CSIRO predicted what we're actually experiencing now about in about 2050. So this has really been a dramatic change, it's been a wake-up call for the whole industry and if we get a repeat of this into the whole future it really is a quite scary scenario."

A bit after that the reporter says, "There's a growing belief among scientists that rainfall across the south of the continent has moved south, leaving mainland dams dry while more rain falls on the ocean and Tasmania. And there's been a similar rainfall movement along the eastern seaboard. In the nation's fastest growing region, from Sydney to south east Queensland, rain is falling on the cities but not within the dam catchments.".

This southerly shift in the rainfall has been one of the predicted results of global warming for at least 10 years, so I'm assuming it's at least part of what the peak water body is worried about.

Even if some farmers have made mistakes, it seems unreasonable to blame them for being affected by a global phenomenon that their government has been refusing to acknowledge, let alone act on.

Whether drought relief in its present forms will be effective for farmers or the nation as a whole is another question. I wish I could believe that some government was asking it.

7.30 report story: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2006/s1767281.htm

Ghoti

 

[Happy]

This is no brainer, to protect from drought for good, would be desalination on continent scale as first choice.

We would have to worry again in maybe million year’s time if ocean water increases salt content due to –over use-.

Instead of being of assistance to anybody and everybody we could plough all our money to water projects, and continent type reticulation, similar to electrical grid would be nice to have.

Allan Jones is talking about it for years. But like south-north railway link was a 100 years project, this will be –talking issue- for many years, before somebody does something.

Actually Libya, Israel and Saudi Arabia lead in desalination projects, maybe time to follow them?

 

[ghotib]

What's the proposal: to send desalinated water from the coasts inland, like a sort of super-Snowy scheme?

But what about the salt degradation of irrigated land, and inland rivers for that matter, that we already have? That's a terrible unintended consequence of the irrigation schemes that looked like a permanent solution 50 years ago.

It's hard enough to be sure how engineering systems are going to behave: that's why we now insist on elaborate testing and standards for cars, chemical plants, aircraft, airconditioning systems &c &c &c. I think we need to recognise that natural systems have much more complex interactions than engineering systems.

When we change a natural system, like a water cycle, the rational attitude is to expect our predictions to be incomplete and be alert for unexpected effects from the beginning. Side effects might turn out to be good, but very often they're worse than the original problem. Ignoring them is no help.

Ghoti

 

[Duckman#72]

Strong wealth positions are plentiful for many of those groups with their hands out.

How much is the property/plant/land cruisers worth of the grain farmers saying they "used to fill 12 of those silos - this year only 2".

Are these assets worth more than the wealth of a concretor who is unemployed because of a housing downturn?

Don't even get me started on the enormous cotton and grazing concerns I have been exposed too in QLD.

The Farm Management Deposits have been full for years and we are supposed to bail them out because they finally had to spend some of their tax free money. Many brag about their ability of not having paid tax for decades.

Who pays the fees for all the 'bush' kids in the Geelong Grammars etc?

Perhaps, people should move out of Dalby etc if they want to work. Nobody in the cities is guaranteed a lifestyle beyond the dole. If there is no work in Dalby, move to Brisbane.

I would love to live in the Whitsundays - but I cannot make any money up there in my line of work, so I cant choose where I live.

Not easy - but necessary.

The money spent on encouraging such movements would make more sense than sustaining lifestyles that obviously do not work economically. How many years must we wait for a successful crop before we pull the pin?

Mobility is also probably part of the answer to some of your concerns in the mining vs agriculture argument.

If the government funded the training of Dalby residents to work in the mines in Central QLD - the GDP of Australia would be boosted (and so would the living standard of the Dalby resident). Skilling people is more important than subsidising them.

Why should a couple of rich families support a town of 1950's shopkeepers and publicans?

As for food, plenty of Asian and South American econonomies seem to be able to produce food cheaper than us, we keep hearing how the rural sector needs to be protected/funded to compete, maybe the consumer and tax payer need to be protected from our rural sector?

Prices may need to rise - so what, why do we deserve anything at less than it actually costs?

At least a telemarketer can buy a loaf of bread without borrowing off the government with an interest free loan.

I agree with some of your comments BSD, but your extremist views let you down. I agree - you should not sustain business that will never be viable - full stop - regardless of whether they are in the business of primary production or not. But you make it sound as if all of Australia's agricultural industry should just pack up shop now.

I am not a bleeding heart for primary producers - I know they get a very good deal from the ATO. Between the 5 year Averaging Provisions, Forced Sale and Double Woolclip relief, accelerated Water Conveyancing claims, Farm Management Deposits and 100% claims for Erosion and Pest Control expenditure they have got a fair bit to be satisfied with. On top of this a grazier over 55 years of age can sell his $2M property that he bought 10 years ago for $800,000 and not pay a single $ in capital gains tax by using the CGT rollover relief clauses. Yes - some farmers haven't paid tax in years, some farmers have paid a heap and some have paid a bit. Just like any walk of life.

Your comments about a "couple of rich families supporting a town of 1950's shopkeepers" highlights your bias and stereotypically views of regional Australia. There are many regional towns that are quite progressive and modern in the outlook and for their regions survival. Yes - most towns have their "1950's characters" but don't mistake them all for country hicks. You say you have been exposed to primary production - I'd say McLeod's Daughters would be about the extent of it.

As for primary producers living for the "lifestyle"?? Yes you are probably correct - most people prefer to live 100km away from the nearest hospital, shops and schools because of the "luxury" factor. Haven't seen many cattle properties for sale in the Whitsundays lately. While we are on schools, I can see that the Geelong Grammar issue is really bugging you. What is the story - didn't you get accepted? There are plenty of country kids that don't get privileged schooling.

Do you know what you have to go through to be eligible for Drought Relief Payments? Do you know what income and drought criteria you have to meet for your property to be considered to be in exceptional circumstances? Are you aware of the asset and income limits Centrelink takes into account for primary producers?

Yes - I know some people rort the system - get over it. Based on your assumptions, just because some people get Jobsearch that are well off we should cut the whole thing.

You suggest that prices may rise and that would be a good thing - why should something be cheaper than what it is worth. I completely agree, BUT - make sure that the price increasde gets passed onto the producer!!! ASk a grazier or sheep farmer about prices of cuts of meat at Woolies and then ask how much he gets at the yards and meatworks.

As for your suggestion that we get people from Dalby working in the mining industry. That will be great in 10 years time when we have 100,000 unemployed dragline operators running around the place.

I am not for opening the purse strings and giving Agricultural Australia a free reign but I am not in the same corner as BSD who can only see black and white on this issue.

Regards

Duckman

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.abc.net.au/southeastsa/stories/s1768122.htm - the suicide risk in the bush ....

................Drought communities must be on 'sucide watch'
Wednesday, 18 October 2006
With drought conditions showing no signs of abating in South Australia, farming communities need to be on "suicide watch", one of the state's high-profile religious figures has warned.
"The drought and the consequences over the next few years are going to be so severe, and I think we've all recognised that, that depression and anxiety are only going to increase," says Monsignor David Cappo, Commissioner for Social Inclusion.
More and more people in metro areas are starting to realise the urgency of the rural situation, and Cappo believes this understanding will help relieve the alienation, isolation, depression and despair that many farmers are feeling.
"When people feel that they are not being supported and cared for, that's when many people spiral into serious depression," he says.
"If more and more city people can realise this is not simply a rural problem, that it's a whole of community problem, it gives our governments, both Commonwealth and state governments, more of a mandate to continue and increase their response to these issues."....
...."The likelihood of any income this year is absolutely zilch. Then of course they have to think about next year and where they are going to get their income from, or even their seed," she says.
The Rural Financial Counselling Service is free and confidential and can be contacted on 1800 836 211.

Another bit of news tonight - obesity is costing Australia $4billion per year - now Im willing to bet that there's only a small percentage of country folk contributing to that sum as well. For a start there arent (m)any doctors to go to in the first place, ill or otherwise.

Y'know it's the dangedest thing - but I spent some time in HK, and there almost everybody is thin. Sure there are exceptions to the rule. But it's true that Aus is closer to USA on this one. I've also been to USA - and the size of the helpings sheesh - a "coffee" served in a milk shake container etc Not that fattening - but typical. Strange behaviour - unless you are feeling unloved I guess. (who nose)

 

[2020hindsight]

Smurf
Since you are the laterest lateral thinker I can think of ....
I keep having this dream - a plan to use trains with special baffled trucks ...to train the water to the west. Granted it's only going to help a very few local communities - but better that than nothing. Maybe top up a reservoir or two, flush out some algae ( we've still got that to look forward to in mid summer).
PS My wife says - you're not having another wet dream are you !! ahhh go back to sleep !

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.abc.net.au/water/stories/s1767730.htm
An interesting read - a particular cotton farmer who is being accused of stealing water and causing troubles for others.

Cubbie (newbie cotton grower) - "I mean we've we're six years in now, this is the sixth year that we've been drought-stricken here.
"Over that six-year period we've averaged about 12 per cent production per year on average over six years, so it's hard."
Mr Grabbe expects little sympathy but he hopes his dry dams will help make a point to a public sceptical about his enterprise."

Impact
Cubbie aims to correct accusations from the past, claims that it funelled the Culgoa River into its storages after a flood two and a half years ago, denying water to graziers downstream.
Pop Petersen, from Brenda Station, says Cubbie has a diversion channel three times the width of the river.
"And the water was roaring in through there, and what doesn't go into the diversion channel gets backed up by their weir so they got the bulk of it."

Then, as now, Mr Grabbe denies Cubbie had such a big impact on its neighbours across the border in New South Wales." etc

Well there's gotta be a case for first-in-bestdressed (last-in-first-out?) under these circumstances. IMHO. That is, if it comes to people being "asked" to leave (which appears to be the case).
PS I'm not being lol - word escapes me - state based bias lol - I just detect a sniff of self interest that doesnt belong in the bush. Maybe Im naive.

 

[Smurf1976]

Smurf
Since you are the laterest lateral thinker I can think of ....
I keep having this dream - a plan to use trains with special baffled trucks ...to train the water to the west. Granted it's only going to help a very few local communities - but better that than nothing. Maybe top up a reservoir or two, flush out some algae ( we've still got that to look forward to in mid summer).
PS My wife says - you're not having another wet dream are you !! ahhh go back to sleep !

I can see it getting to the point where we have to truck / rail in water to towns for human consumption if the drought continues. Already a few places are looking at that.

For interest, the current situation with the major city, hydro-electric and Murray River water storages is as follows.

Capital City storages

Sydney - 41.0% full(1)
Melbourne - 44.5%(1)
Brisbane - 26.1%(1)
Perth - 32.4%(1,2)
Adelaide - 58.1%(1,2)
Canberra - 46.5%(1)
Hobart - over 80%(2)


Hydro-electric and irrigation storages

Hydro-Electric Corporation (Tas) - system total energy in storage - 35.3% (3)

Snowy Hydro - System total - 19.0%
- Blowering reservoir (discharge to Murrumbidgee) - 43%
- Lake Eucumbene (main storage for power generation) - 16.5%

Southern Hydro (Vic) - Lake Eildon (a major irrigation storage) - 19.0%
- Dartmouth (a major Murray River storage) - 50.0%

Other - Hume reservoir (important Murray River storage) - 14%
- Burrinjuck reservoir - 31%
- Lake Victoria - 80%
- Menindee Lakes - 13%
(Total Murray-Darling Basin Commission storage - 34%)

Notes:

1 - Water restrictions in place.

2 - The storages are not the city's sole source of water. Perth - ground water, Adelaide - Murray River (major source of supply), Hobart - River Derwent (major source of supply). Most of Hobart's storages are able to be filled via pumping from the Derwent during Winter when water demand is low and as such the present storage level is not a valid reflection of recent (very low) levels of rainfall.

3. Hydro Tasmania storages are managed to long term and seasonal minimum target levels by varying the rainfall (cloud seeding), production from Bell Bay thermal power station (BBPS) and interstate trade via Basslink. Such operations have been significant in recent years such that the present storage position is a reflection of the combined effects of system inflows (natural plus seeded), BBPS operation and interstate trade rather than being a reflection of water inflows alone. The present target level is 41%.

 

[merec]

My 2cents worth.
Don't forget in this country food is relatively cheap ,we sell first quality premium wheat overseas and in return we buy 2nd and 3rd grade grain based ingredients for local production.This adds to our 2nd grade grain pool.
Try and buy a serious 1st grade quality side of beef in australia you will find it is more expensive than the BI-LO special,overseas buyers will snap it up like there's no tomorrow and pay premium money therfore lower quality meat is sent to local markets and requires less profit margin.
It all comes down to the accountant in canberra who sits in his little office and decides if subsidies are cost effective and the politicians who don't want to explain to you and me why our snags are going up in price.

Yes subsidies do keep unproductive farmers on the land but only for the short term but thats good for when they crash and burn they really crash and burn.Thats when good long term farmers can have a good day at a clearing sale.

It's just the circle of farming life.

 

[2020hindsight]

I can see it getting to the point where we have to truck / rail in water to towns for human consumption if the drought continues. Already a few places are looking at that. Capital City storages
Brisbane - 26.1%(1)....

Thanks Smurf - you are a fountain of knowledge no question.
Those stats are frightening enough - but I'm sure you'd agree that in the country the situation is far far more serious (man o man)

 

[2020hindsight]

Son I recall a good year maybe two -you were just a child at my knee
and the land that we see which Ill give to you is the same that was given to me
In those years my boy we'd just fenced the back paddock with gum posts and strained the barbed wire
But then son no sooner we took a break - than that was the year of the fire.

Son I recall another year on, we spent all our funds on planting
The sun got so hot that the calves dropped dead, and the dogs just sat around panting
We watched as the shoots came up and then wilted, and fell back as infants slain
And that was the year that the billabong silted, and the decade without any rain.

Son I must leave now, good luck on this plot, just bury me, six feet of toil
Near where my father was laid to rot, though his soul lives on in this soil
The year that he died son, the rainclouds went mad, and wept till the land became mud
And it kept on raining till good turns bad - and that was the year of the flood.

Son I must leave now, good luck on this plot, I hope it gets kinder with time
Son dont forget that the sheep must be shot, when the salty ground looks like lime
Son dont forget that the first sign of strife is dead trees - like those over there -
And son, for God's sake - though it costs you your life - dont pass to your son to bear.

PS written since my post 25 mins ago - sorry but I really sympathise with these people. But it's not entirely original. I was in a poets club - rural origins , and I heard a lady recite a poem which includes the lines "that was the year of the fire" etc. It was enough to make you weep. She'd actually been there you see. Yet she read it with such a total absence of self-pity. Such marvellous people those bushies. And as I suggested somewhere else , - at least in past wars - the first to volunteer for active service (always assuming that there was a legitimate call to arms).

 

[Julia]

We can always depend on our politicians for offering profound insights.
The following is a quote from Nick Minchin yesterday:

"Drought is caused by lack of rain".

Julia

 

[FXST01]

Simply put, yes they do deserve it

 

[vicb]

So now the drought is over should investors get it?