Should the Australian Government provide drought relief funds for farmers?

[Value Collector]

That's a deflection, although a relevant one. Many things can be done to reduce consumption of resources, including reducing the production of plastics.

Yes, But I don't think forcing me to drink from the bathroom tap of a hotel is the best way, and as I said if you really want to make a big impact on the resources we use, then focus on the large pollution source first, which is the meat industry.

A meat eaters diet requires about 1,100 litres of extra water per day than a vegan diet.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes, But I don't think forcing me to drink from the bathroom tap of a hotel is the best way,

Pour the tap water into a kettle (which most hotels have), and make yourself a cup of tea.

Boiling the water will get rid of all the nasty bacteria.

 

[Value Collector]

I'm surprised you could convince yourself that a for-profit corporation draining the city's aquifer and paying nothing for it is a great thing for... for everyone.
.

Mate, you know nothing about this.

1, Flint never has and never planned to use the aquifer that Nestles bottling plant used.

2, The contamination in the water was caused by the city not treating the water correctly and the fact the old pipes are made of lead.

 

[Value Collector]

Pour the tap water into a kettle (which most hotels have), and make yourself a cup of tea.

Boiling the water will get rid of all the nasty bacteria.

I have done that before, it does take a while to sort that out though, waiting for water to cool down before you can drink it is a bit of a pain.

Also, my wife can be a bit fussy with the taste of the water in places where we travel sometimes.

And at the end of the day, If I am buying a glass bottle of rum and 2 plastic bottles of coke, I can hardly justify not allowing her to get a few bottles of water. haha

 

[luutzu]

Mate, you know nothing about this.

1, Flint never has and never planned to use the aquifer that Nestles bottling plant used.

2, The contamination in the water was caused by the city not treating the water correctly and the fact the old pipes are made of lead.

No, the water from the river was polluted. That pollution and the chemical in it leaches the lead in the pipe system. Yes, most older water pipes have lead in them, but what was in the water leached it out a lot more than the usual clean water would.

Of course I don't know the contractual details and why or how Nestle got permission to pump. I'm not a resident of Flint and not an investigative journalist dude.

But that doesn't make the fact that Nestle paying practically nothing for the city's water while its residents (living on the wrong side of the track) are being poisoned a right and normal thing. Maybe it's "normal" in America.

If you look it up, see how many of Flint's kids have elevated level of lead in their blood, and what the effect is on their health and mental development. Or a perfectly healthy young father got seriously sick, his hair falls out. Or people becoming too poor and broke they can't pay their water bill and have it shut off.

I guess that's normal. Maybe they ought to be like Nestle' and set up their own pumping station. Well, just don't set it up where Nestle' got the rights to. 'cause that'd be theft.

 

[Value Collector]

No, the water from the river was polluted. That pollution and the chemical in it leaches the lead in the pipe system. Yes, most older water pipes have lead in them, but what was in the water leached it out a lot more than the usual clean water would.

Of course I don't know the contractual details and why or how Nestle got permission to pump. I'm not a resident of Flint and not an investigative journalist dude.

But that doesn't make the fact that Nestle paying practically nothing for the city's water while its residents (living on the wrong side of the track) are being poisoned a right and normal thing. Maybe it's "normal" in America.

If you look it up, see how many of Flint's kids have elevated level of lead in their blood, and what the effect is on their health and mental development. Or a perfectly healthy young father got seriously sick, his hair falls out. Or people becoming too poor and broke they can't pay their water bill and have it shut off.

I guess that's normal. Maybe they ought to be like Nestle' and set up their own pumping station. Well, just don't set it up where Nestle' got the rights to. 'cause that'd be theft.

As I said, If the water was treated correctly it would not have been a problem, the cities water company messed up, thats it, nothing to do with nestle.

Nestle have been pumping the water from the aquifer for decades, long before this problem arose, they are 2 separate issues.

The flint water authority mismanaging the treat process and water sources has nothing to do with Nestles water business which is completely separate infrastructure pumping from a source the city would never have used in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis#Financial_emergency

But that doesn't make the fact that Nestle paying practically nothing for the city's water while its residents (living on the wrong side of the track) are being poisoned a right and normal thing. Maybe it's "normal" in America.

They aren't costing the city anything, the city wasn't using the aquifer and never planned to.

Nestle simply pump the water, purify it and then sell it to the population, earning a profit for the service.

Nestle is just a scape goat, even if nestle never had the bottling plant there to begin with this would have still happened, they didn't contribute to the problem at all.

 

[SirRumpole]

Also, my wife can be a bit fussy with the taste of the water in places where we travel sometimes.

I'd have to say that's fair enough.

A lot of water is heavily chlorinated these days and tastes off if you are not used to it.

 

[luutzu]

As I said, If the water was treated correctly it would not have been a problem, the cities water company messed up, thats it, nothing to do with nestle.

Nestle have been pumping the water from the aquifer for decades, long before this problem arose, they are 2 separate issues.

The flint water authority mismanaging the treat process and water sources has nothing to do with Nestles water business which is completely separate infrastructure pumping from a source the city would never have used in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis#Financial_emergency



They aren't costing the city anything, the city wasn't using the aquifer and never planned to.

Nestle simply pump the water, purify it and then sell it to the population, earning a profit for the service.

Nestle is just a scape goat, even if nestle never had the bottling plant there to begin with this would have still happened, they didn't contribute to the problem at all.

I don't think I ever blamed Nestle' for the damaged water infrastructure. Merely pointing out that for certain section of the city, their water are poisoned, shut off... and then there's Nestle' pumping it out for nothing.

And dude, there are plenty of land and resources the gov't does not plan to use right now, or ever. It doesn't mean it should be given away because of that current and foreseeable plan.

And if the city's water company is being charged nothing, it does not therefore follow that Nestle' ought to be given the same status. One is a public utility serving the public and local residents. The other is a multi-national, for-profit corporation serving their own consumer and shareholders.

You can give benefit to the locals because the benefit stays there. You shouldn't give it away to those who will shift it away for profit and leave next to nothing for your goods.

 

[moXJO]

I'd have to say that's fair enough.

A lot of water is heavily chlorinated these days and tastes off if you are not used to it.

Doesn't the chlorine turn to gases when you boil?
But the lead or whatever other metals stay in it?

 

[SirRumpole]

Doesn't the chlorine turn to gases when you boil?
But the lead or whatever other metals stay in it?

Could be, I'm not a chemist. I always use a water filter with my home supply which is bore water. I haven't had the filtered water tested so maybe there are trace elements still in it.

 

[luutzu]

Doesn't the chlorine turn to gases when you boil?
But the lead or whatever other metals stay in it?

I heard that lead can't be boiled out. Saw a few protest placard saying the same when the city's managers advise Flint's residence to just boil the water before consuming it.

Heard estimates to replace Flint's water system would be around $250M. Where's the money for that, they say.

But corporate tax cuts in the hundreds of billions and trillions is alright though. Trump just added some $70B to the Pentagon's budget in one single year.

Plenty of money, just for some and not for everyone.

 

[SirRumpole]

I heard that lead can't be boiled out. Saw a few protest placard saying the same when the city's managers advise Flint's residence to just boil the water before consuming it.

Heard estimates to replace Flint's water system would be around $250M. Where's the money for that, they say.

But corporate tax cuts in the hundreds of billions and trillions is alright though. Trump just added some $70B to the Pentagon's budget in one single year.

Plenty of money, just for some and not for everyone.

I don't really know how we got into a discussion about what is happening in the USA in a thread about drought assistance to Australian farmers.

 

[luutzu]

I don't really know how we got into a discussion about what is happening in the USA in a thread about drought assistance to Australian farmers.

Water and privatisation.

Australia has, from memory, two massive aquifers. They cover about 1/2 our landmass.

With climate change and water becoming scarce. We can be sure those will be open up and shipped out. If we follow Flint's model where any corporation with a drilling bits and a pump can take as much as they like... well, advance Australia it's not going to be.

 

[Value Collector]

I don't think I ever blamed Nestle' for the damaged water infrastructure. Merely pointing out that for certain section of the city, their water are poisoned, shut off... and then there's Nestle' pumping it out for nothing.

And dude, there are plenty of land and resources the gov't does not plan to use right now, or ever. It doesn't mean it should be given away because of that current and foreseeable plan.

And if the city's water company is being charged nothing, it does not therefore follow that Nestle' ought to be given the same status. One is a public utility serving the public and local residents. The other is a multi-national, for-profit corporation serving their own consumer and shareholders.

You can give benefit to the locals because the benefit stays there. You shouldn't give it away to those who will shift it away for profit and leave next to nothing for your goods.

So if you admit that nestle have nothing to do with causing the water problems, what’s the issue?

And the water source nestle use is one that the local water company never did use and never planned to use.

And nestle were just providing a service pumping the water out and distributing to the public from which they earn a reasonable return.

Why would you think anything immorral is happening, the only link is that they both happen to be water distribution models.

As I said in the USA you don’t even pay a royalty on oil in a lot of states, if the oil is sitting under the land you own, it’s yours.

Same with water, if it’s under your land you can pump it you just need a permit for certain amounts, and that permit costs $400.

Anyway I am really not responding to this rubbish anymore, the Nestle plant is just located near a poorly managed water system by chance, the mismanagement had nothing to do with them, and you are just saying because they happen to trade in the same commodity as the one some else mismanaged they should have been paying more for some reason.

 

[Value Collector]

Water and privatisation.

Australia has, from memory, two massive aquifers. They cover about 1/2 our landmass.

With climate change and water becoming scarce. We can be sure those will be open up and shipped out. If we follow Flint's model where any corporation with a drilling bits and a pump can take as much as they like... well, advance Australia it's not going to be.

You are lying there, that isn’t the model, the company needs to apply for a permit, and then gets certain amount of gallons capacity allotted to them.

Whether they pay for that by the gallon is just a question of taxation, if they are distributing it as drinking water I don’t really agree it should be taxed.

 

[luutzu]

So if you admit that nestle have nothing to do with causing the water problems, what’s the issue?

And the water source nestle use is one that the local water company never did use and never planned to use.

And nestle were just providing a service pumping the water out and distributing to the public from which they earn a reasonable return.

Why would you think anything immorral is happening, the only link is that they both happen to be water distribution models.

As I said in the USA you don’t even pay a royalty on oil in a lot of states, if the oil is sitting under the land you own, it’s yours.

Same with water, if it’s under your land you can pump it you just need a permit for certain amounts, and that permit costs $400.

Anyway I am really not responding to this rubbish anymore, the Nestle plant is just located near a poorly managed water system by chance, the mismanagement had nothing to do with them, and you are just saying because they happen to trade in the same commodity as the one some else mismanaged they should have been paying more for some reason.

Neslte is not responsible, directly, as far as I know. That's not exactly the same as saying that Nestle's getting water for free has no effect whatsoever.

Pretty sure I didn't say Nestle's is immoral and such. If anything, it does what it has to to make a buck. And if the policy makers decided that that's legal and perfectly alright, I guess nothing's wrong with that (unless you're the ones living in that part of the city being poisoned, literally).

Dude, I mentioned this not so much a criticism of Nestle' but a statement on the general social fabric, or whatever you call it.

There is a lot wrong when it's perfectly legal for a multi-national corp. to get water for free, ship it all across the states, making "reasonable" profit... all while the inhabitant of that city gets their water turned off or forced to buy bottled for drinking, the rest they'll have to put up with or move somewhere else.

If you think it's normal and not important, alright. That's your problem.

 

[luutzu]

You are lying there, that isn’t the model, the company needs to apply for a permit, and then gets certain amount of gallons capacity allotted to them.

Whether they pay for that by the gallon is just a question of taxation, if they are distributing it as drinking water I don’t really agree it should be taxed.

it's not a model now but if Nestle in Flint becomes a model, and investors like yourself see nothing wrong with that model, then why should investors pay for water they pump out when it's free and flowing like sunshine.

 

[explod]

Whilst we have people without a place to sleep, particularly divorced and separated women around the 50 to 65 year mark with no support why should we support farmers at all. Surely the first object in society is that we all should have a home.

My Dad was a farmer, I grew up on the land, I witnessed the droughts begin in the 60s like never before. My Grandfather (a wheat farmer) informed me well also.

When the sheep were trucked out of north Qld in 1968 (was a shearer there then) the experts said then that this country was not suitable for grazing. Back then the sheep were digging into the soil to eat the root systems, which increased erosion off the banks of the easements and I could go on.

And there are so many good (green) alternatives. But big industry has to be in it or the guvmint are not interested.

So as per my theme, just party.

Currently (off topic) I'm making my own battery backed air cooler, charged by an independent solar panel and a bike pedal generator for my exercise should do it well in a small insulated space. Maybe not this summer but in my view its going to get very hot soon.

 

[Tisme]

 

[Value Collector]

it's not a model now but if Nestle in Flint becomes a model, and investors like yourself see nothing wrong with that model, then why should investors pay for water they pump out when it's free and flowing like sunshine.

It’s not the model in flint either, nestle has a permit to pump a set amount of gallons per year, and that rate is set by the authorities.

They don’t have to pay for the water, but the amount of water they pump is limited to the permitted amount.

You don’t seem to have a good understanding of the facts, or is it you are just twisting the facts to suit.