Sentencing in Australia is a disgrace

[Chris45]

He basically needed to take the beating or use such force that does not 'exceed' that of the other person?

If they said that stabbing someone was ok in self defence when you are being beaten it would be a bit problematic.

Yes, I agree it’s problematic and, because he was a minor, we will probably never hear the full story, as with that 12yo stabbing incident in Brisbane recently. Not knowing the full story behind these incidents is very unsatisfactory.

We don’t know what preceded the attack and whether there was any provocation, but my thoughts are that if an innocent person is attacked, he should be entitled to defend himself with whatever force he can muster, even if it means the death of the attacker, because he doesn’t know if the attacker is planning to kick him to death or what, so how can there be "excessive self-defence"? Some thugs viciously attack innocent people just for the thrill and the notion of being required to “take the beating” is completely unreasonable. I have absolutely zero compassion for such types.

However, if he provoked the attack and it was gang related, it’s a very different story. I wish we could be told ALL of the facts.

 

[Chris45]

I havn't done crim law yet so im just guessing

Newbie Trader, you sound like a Gen-Y law student so I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the following hypothetical.

A slightly built, nerdy 16yo, bullied all of his life, riding alone on a train and minding his own business, is attacked by an aggressive, solidly built 17yo thug who simply doesn’t like the look of him and wants to unleash some pent-up anger on someone. The 16yo is cornered in the carriage and unable to escape so, in fear for his life as the 17yo lunges towards him, he defensively stabs and accidently kills him with a sharp object he carries for protection. There is no prior history between the two and no provocation.

So, if you were required to pass judgment on this 16yo and sentence him, what would you say?

 

[bunyip]

Just in case you ever get these two environments mixed up:

Prison vs Work

At prison - You spend most of your time in a 10X10 cell.
At work - You spend most of your time in an 6X6 cubicle.

At prison - You get three meals a day, fully paid for.
At work - You get a break for one meal and you have to pay for it.

At prison - For good behavior you get time off.
At work - For good behavior you get more work.

At prison - The guard locks and unlocks all the doors for you.
At work - You must carry a security card and open all the doors yourself.

At prison - You can watch TV and play games as much as you like.
At work - You could get fired for watching TV and playing games.

At prison - You get your own toilet.
At work - You have to share the toilet with a dozen or more other people.

At prison - Your family and friends are allowed to visit.
At work - You aren't even supposed to speak to your family.

At prison - All expenses are paid by the taxpayers with almost no work required of you.
At work - You must pay all your expenses to go to work, and they deduct taxes from your salary to pay for prisoners.

At prison - You spend most of your life behind bars wanting to get out.
At work - You spend most of your time wanting to get out and go inside bars.

At prison - You must deal with sadistic wardens.
At work - Same story, except the wardens are called 'supervisers' or 'managers.'


THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH THIS SCENARIO.

 

[newbie trader]

THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH THIS SCENARIO.

Its generally seen that punishment extends up until and including sentencing. After this rehabilitation begins. I'm not sure if I agree with it or not (hard to say when each offender is uniquely different). If you were to reverse the treatment of prisoners (reverse it from what you have described above) what benefit will this have to the community and the prisoners themselves?

 

[Wysiwyg]

Its generally seen that punishment extends up until and including sentencing. After this rehabilitation begins. I'm not sure if I agree with it or not (hard to say when each offender is uniquely different). If you were to reverse the treatment of prisoners (reverse it from what you have described above) what benefit will this have to the community and the prisoners themselves?

A criminal may weigh up the pros and cons of being jailed for the crime as a fair trade off against the possibility of being caught. The non deterrent factors such as modern facilities, reduced sentencing and compassion for the perpetrator being considerations before committing an offense.

 

[IFocus]

This grim little story should warm those cold hearts wanting to lock everyone up based on black and white thinking.

THE death of a prisoner bashed at Grafton jail has put further pressure on the tough sentencing culture of the state government's law and order policies.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/dead-man-did-not-need-a-prison-cell-20100618-ymu2.html

 

[Slipperz]

This grim little story should warm those cold hearts wanting to lock everyone up based on black and white thinking.



http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/dead-man-did-not-need-a-prison-cell-20100618-ymu2.html

So the bloke was in jail for driving while disqualified 8 freaking times.

Last year 137 people died on our roads, anyones guess how many more got horribly injured.

So far this year the tally stands at 152.

Driving a motor vehicle in our community is a privilege not a right contingent on responsible use of that vehicle according to community standards.

What if he got let off ( for the ninth time!) and then had an accident causing death?

Can you imagine the public outcry of why wasn't he in jail?

I am by no means suggesting he should of died in jail.

The fact is unfortunately for him he ended up amongst other irresponsible, dangerous and socially unnacceptable individuals and he met an unpleasant end.

That's the risk of breaking the social contract we all sign onto imo.

 

[newbie trader]

So the bloke was in jail for driving while disqualified 8 freaking times.

Last year 137 people died on our roads, anyones guess how many more got horribly injured.

So far this year the tally stands at 152.

Driving a motor vehicle in our community is a privilege not a right contingent on responsible use of that vehicle according to community standards.

What if he got let off ( for the ninth time!) and then had an accident causing death?

Can you imagine the public outcry of why wasn't he in jail?

I am by no means suggesting he should of died in jail.

The fact is unfortunately for him he ended up amongst other irresponsible, dangerous and socially unnacceptable individuals and he met an unpleasant end.

That's the risk of breaking the social contract we all sign onto imo.

In this case (having knowledge from only the ARTICLE itself) it would appear that jail may not have been the best of options for this man and it would have been foreseeable given his condition (could not read social cues etc) that he may come to harm if imprisoned. To my limited knowledge he has not killed anyone. What other form of punishment should have been applied here? I do not know. The one given, however, (upon face value) IMO was not correct.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Just in case you ever get these two environments mixed up:

Prison vs Work

At prison - You spend most of your time in a 10X10 cell.
At work - You spend most of your time in an 6X6 cubicle.

At prison - You get three meals a day, fully paid for.
At work - You get a break for one meal and you have to pay for it.

At prison - For good behavior you get time off.
At work - For good behavior you get more work.

At prison - The guard locks and unlocks all the doors for you.
At work - You must carry a security card and open all the doors yourself.

At prison - You can watch TV and play games as much as you like.
At work - You could get fired for watching TV and playing games.

At prison - You get your own toilet.
At work - You have to share the toilet with a dozen or more other people.

At prison - Your family and friends are allowed to visit.
At work - You aren't even supposed to speak to your family.

At prison - All expenses are paid by the taxpayers with almost no work required of you.
At work - You must pay all your expenses to go to work, and they deduct taxes from your salary to pay for prisoners.

At prison - You spend most of your life behind bars wanting to get out.
At work - You spend most of your time wanting to get out and go inside bars.

At prison - You must deal with sadistic wardens.
At work - Same story, except the wardens are called 'supervisers' or 'managers.'


THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH THIS SCENARIO.

May I add to that

At prison - You get a condom if you are lucky, little choice of same sex partner and beaten if the assailant is caught out.

at work - If you are CEO of DJS, you get unlimited condoms, a wide choice of leggy blonde female partners and $8 mil when you get caught out.

I really feel some of the posters here should spend a few weeks in one of our prisons. they are nasty, dangerous, horrible places , a breeding ground for assault, further criminality, disease and mental conditions.

Only the worst of the worst should be sentenced to prison. e.g murderers/rapists etc and Financial Planners who rob people of millions of dollars in dodgy schemes.

It serves no utility when you look at the recidivism rate.

gg

 

[Julia]

What would you like to have seen happen to this person as an alternative to jail, NT, bearing in mind the reality of the options available?

 

[nunthewiser]

What would you like to have seen happen to this person as an alternative to jail, NT, bearing in mind the reality of the options available?

Give him a sixpack and a new car?

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

What would you like to have seen happen to this person as an alternative to jail, NT, bearing in mind the reality of the options available?

Julia I think NT is admiring his new $20 AFL footie socks in the mirror again, with probably little else on.
So If I may , I will answer.

These idiots have been around since the dawn of time. Was he sick in the head? Is he just an idiot with no thought of consequences. Did he have a reason to drive so frequently while disqualified, e.g. working for a drug dealer.
In the old days the coppers would have "spoken" to him prior to his 3rd appearance.

Its a pretty sick society out there at the bottom, and also at the top by the way.

That is why I feel we need someone like Abbott, who has the balls to tackle these issues instead of ole flip flop slap it on Rudd. Society needs a wake up call, otherwise we will end up like the UK.

gg

 

[Julia]

OK gg, What then do you think Mr Abbott would do?
What do you think should have happened to the disqualified driver when he appeared for the eighth time?

 

[newbie trader]

What would you like to have seen happen to this person as an alternative to jail, NT, bearing in mind the reality of the options available?

As I said before i'm not really sure. But possibly something where he does not have contact with possibly dangerous individuals whom have a propensity for violence (given his apparent psychological condition). Do you have any ideas Julia or do you believe the punishment was fitting?

 

[Julia]

As I said before i'm not really sure. But possibly something where he does not have contact with possibly dangerous individuals whom have a propensity for violence (given his apparent psychological condition). Do you have any ideas Julia or do you believe the punishment was fitting?

No, on the basis of the newspaper story, he doesn't seem like a candidate for jail to me.
But the unpleasant reality is that we no longer have the facilities for adequately treating people like this. More than half the prison population has a mental health issue, which pretty obviously is going to be exacerbated by the sort of abuse this particular bloke apparently endured.

At the same time, on a societal level you can't just let people who persist in driving while disqualified continue to do this. The likely outcome would be injury to other people.

It won't happen because neither side will ever have the necessary political will, but we need various levels of institutional mental healthcare, not large asylum type places, but group houses where people with a mental illness can have some independence, but with support and supervision.
There are so many people who are just not equipped to negotiate their way through ordinary, everyday life, and imo we have a duty of care toward them.

I know plenty will disagree with me, and favour tossing them all into jail.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

OK gg, What then do you think Mr Abbott would do?
What do you think should have happened to the disqualified driver when he appeared for the eighth time?

There is nothing that can be done presently, other than what happened. everyone from the Judge down is covering their ass, to ensure that they deal with the process properly. they go through the motions, get their pay, don't appear on the front of the Courier Mail and retire into some goddam nursing home where they go demented and are kept alive forever.

It is a societal problem. It does not start when he walks in to court. There are no consequences for the parents of people like this. So that should be looked at first off. People have too many rights nowadays, and act with absolutely zilch responsibility.

It was probably too late to really do anything after he drove for the 2nd time irresponsibly.

As for people whingeing about the road toll. They need to grow up. More people die from murder within 10k's of each World Cup event venue in one week, than die in five years on Australian roads. People do die on roads. It is risky hurtling at 100kph in a bloody Toyota Pious with dodgy brakes and assholes disqualified 8 times rushing about the cross roads.

If Tony Abbott were in for ten or fifteen years, Australia might get the mantle back of the "lucky country", with a moral backbone.

gg

 

[IFocus]

In this case (having knowledge from only the ARTICLE itself) it would appear that jail may not have been the best of options for this man and it would have been foreseeable given his condition (could not read social cues etc) that he may come to harm if imprisoned. To my limited knowledge he has not killed anyone. What other form of punishment should have been applied here? I do not know. The one given, however, (upon face value) IMO was not correct.

Nice post NT


As an aside in WA there are suppose to be 40,000 drivers driving without licenses mostly due to unpaid fines etc, WA jails are over flowing now so makes you wonder about all the BS tough on crime politics.

 

[IFocus]

No, on the basis of the newspaper story, he doesn't seem like a candidate for jail to me.
But the unpleasant reality is that we no longer have the facilities for adequately treating people like this. More than half the prison population has a mental health issue, which pretty obviously is going to be exacerbated by the sort of abuse this particular bloke apparently endured.

At the same time, on a societal level you can't just let people who persist in driving while disqualified continue to do this. The likely outcome would be injury to other people.

It won't happen because neither side will ever have the necessary political will, but we need various levels of institutional mental healthcare, not large asylum type places, but group houses where people with a mental illness can have some independence, but with support and supervision.
There are so many people who are just not equipped to negotiate their way through ordinary, everyday life, and imo we have a duty of care toward them.

I know plenty will disagree with me, and favour tossing them all into jail.

..


Agree 100% we have gone down the same road as USA under Regan pull money out of mental health and lock up the unwell.

 

[newbie trader]

A 13 year old girl sold to a truck driver by her mum for some fuel.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/girl-13-sold-for-fuel-20100619-ynvu.html

 

[Tink]

I cant believe this, was absolute bedlam in Melbourne yesterday.

Supposedly this guy was not long released, in court in Nov last year.

Police hunt for suspect David Paul Rowntree wanted over brandishing shotgun and leading cops on wild police chase

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...he-domain-tunnel/story-e6frf7kx-1225882177753