Second stimulus package discussion

[cashcow]

Some may expect the government to reduce expenditure by over $100B in order to maintain a surplus. But thats a lot of services cut, or a lot of tax increases. $42B is just a spit in the ocean of what can be lost.

A source below...





http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24999947-5001021,00.html

But actually considering the revenue lost. It makes you wonder what services will need to be cut in the long term

Thanks for the linkage shaunQ (and for Julia's source also)

Yes, it does make me wonder. And it makes all those election promises seem all the more ambitious ...

PS - is the Q in your name meant to be pronounced like a "k"? No offence intended if it's not, but chuckle-worthy if I'm right

 

[Prospector]

but if you don't have the necessary staff don't bother.

Too true; we have wards closed in our Public Hospitals because we dont have the Nurses to staff them. I think that Nurses HECS fees should be paid for by the Government - they are the crux of the Public Health system.

how about drinkable water ,i haven't been to Adelaide for 30 years and still have nightmares about there tap water

Our water is good now - filtered etc. We just dont have enough of it!

 

[cuttlefish]

Prospector, that is, of course, just appalling. And it will be repeated in perhaps less dramatic fashion throughout Australia.

But $30,000 to cretins like this is just what Rudd & Co want! Because they will go out and spend it quickly on useless rubbish. Don't worry about that though because it will provide another quick spike in the quarterly figures so our esteemed leaders may say : "OK, folks, there we are now - see what a great job we're doing - Australia is still not in recession, just look at those retail figures."

This country - and the others who share this short term amoral attitude - needs a whole new political and governmental philosophy. It won't happen, of course. It's just all so depressing.

This is the problem with these handouts. When you think of all the positive, constructive things that would benefit society that $30,000 could be spent on. Multiply that effect by over one hundred thousand (i.e. billions in handouts) and all of this money that could be going to constructive social purposes is just being tipped down the drain. Its criminal, its an obnoxious waste of Australia's wealth.

30,000 - airconditioning in a school? Half a teachers wage? Half a nurses wage? A hospital bed? A training program? A tree planting program? A small medical research grant (or any other worthwhile research? Sporting equipment for a school? A pre-feasability study for a works project?

Or tip it into a pokie machine and a bottleshop or a flat screen TV?

Compare the resultant effect on society.

Multiply by over 100,000.

I hated it when Howard (and Costello) did it, and I hate it that Rudd is doing it - particularly on this scale. So uncreative, so uninspiring, so bland and visionless, and such a waste of opportunity.

 

[cuttlefish]

Reading the paper today - $30,000 would help towards fire fighting equipment or possibly fund a program to create a fire break around an area.

But pokies, booze - far more productive.

 

[GumbyLearner]

This is the problem with these handouts. When you think of all the positive, constructive things that would benefit society that $30,000 could be spent on. Multiply that effect by over one hundred thousand (i.e. billions in handouts) and all of this money that could be going to constructive social purposes is just being tipped down the drain. Its criminal, its an obnoxious waste of Australia's wealth.

30,000 - airconditioning in a school? Half a teachers wage? Half a nurses wage? A hospital bed? A training program? A tree planting program? A small medical research grant (or any other worthwhile research? Sporting equipment for a school? A pre-feasability study for a works project?

Or tip it into a pokie machine and a bottleshop or a flat screen TV?

Compare the resultant effect on society.

Multiply by over 100,000.

I hated it when Howard (and Costello) did it, and I hate it that Rudd is doing it - particularly on this scale. So uncreative, so uninspiring, so bland and visionless, and such a waste of opportunity.

Fair Call CF! Where is the 'boy' from Bankstown when you REALLY need him? Way better than the jokers you have mentioned. JMO!
Australia needs a statesman not an obseqious academic (Rudd) or a US butt-licker (JH) JMO!

 

[bunyip]

Too true; we have wards closed in our Public Hospitals because we dont have the Nurses to staff them. I think that Nurses HECS fees should be paid for by the Government - they are the crux of the Public Health system.


Our water is good now - filtered etc. We just dont have enough of it!

Yes, that might go a long way towards addressing the shortage of nurses.
Better still, bring back the old system where nurses were trained in the hospitals, getting lots of hands on experience and getting paid a small wage at the same time. They lived in the nurses quarters for minimal rental, had all their meals provided, were accommodated right there on the job site......a far better system that what's in place today with nursing being a uni course, big on classroom experience but small on practical experience. And a dirty big hex bill at the end of it. Crazy.
My wife has a number of nursing degrees. She trained through the hospital system, says the uni trained nurses these days are graduating with limited practical skills due to their limited hands-on experience. She reckons the current nurse training system is a poor substitute for the old hospital-based training system.

 

[hotbmw]

how much would a stimulus package cost if we did this instead of what they chose:

- small to med business owners (who employ more than a certain amount of people) lay off no workers in the 2009 calendar year get a 50% tax break.

- KEEP THIER PLAN FOR BUSINESS SPENDING ON MACHINERY/EQUIPMENT WITH A 30% REBATE

- a further 50% reduction on CGT for any asset purchases (property/shares) in 2009 calendar year if held for a certain period of years (3 or 5 years)

- no stamp duty payable on purchases in 2009 calendar year

would this be well over 40 billion?
if its not over 40 billion, use the remaining billions on needed infrastructure spending

wouldnt this stimulate us all? save jobs. entice us to invest?

or is this a mind blowing 100 billion $ + expense???

 

[Julia]

On "The Insiders" this morning Julia Gillard was asked about the unemployed receiving no hand out in Package No. 2 other than the 'training bonus'. Barry Cassidy suggested to her that to expect people on Newstart to live on $225 p.w. was pretty unrealistic. She skipped over the question (of course) and went on to laud the benefits of the training available.

Given that we may well see increased numbers of people seeking this benefit, is the government's approach yet another example of their short term view?
i.e. if people can't meet their mortgage repayments/rent, don't we then have a much greater problem to deal with in the form of homelessness, not to mention the personal distress of individuals?

And we might imagine that people who have been in the workforce for a while will be able to bolster the government's meagre assistance by using their own savings to supplement their government benefit. Ah but no, a single person may not be eligible for Newstart until their level of personal assets is less than $2500.

Isn't this completely unreasonable and in fact counter-productive?

 

[Wysiwyg]

Introduce work for the unemployment benefit for every person after 6 months of unemployment assistance.

I guarantee you will see more bludgers jumping off the couches and beds around Australia faster than one could ever point a stick at.

 

[gfresh]

- small to med business owners (who employ more than a certain amount of people) lay off no workers in the 2009 calendar year get a 50% tax break.

Exactly the sort of thing I would think would be more effective than cash handouts to indirectly help employment - $10bn is a lot of money that could be used to keep a lot of people in work *directly* (none of this guessing whether cash will keep people in work), and provide tax breaks or other subisidies to encourage employers to keep people on for at least the next 12 months. That money could be used to pay $20k of the direct wages for 500,000 employees

Maybe that's not great in terms of productivity if there is not much work for them to do, but workers still contribute taxes, and at least have their regular spending capacity - which is a lot more than $950 in a year.

Anyhow, while it's not too popular on ASF, seems the "general public" sees otherwise, and just sees the $$ in their eyes. It's a vote winner..

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25026302-5013871,00.html

According to the latest Newspoll survey, taken exclusively for The Australian at the weekend, primary vote support for Labor jumped five percentage points to 48 per cent - the same as in December - after the $42 billion economic stimulus package was announced last week.

A large majority of those surveyed, 63 per cent, also think the Rudd Government is doing a good job managing the economy during the global financial crisis and only 33 per cent think the Coalition would do a better job.

 

[Buddy]

Anyhow, while it's not too popular on ASF, seems the "general public" sees otherwise, and just sees the $$ in their eyes. It's a vote winner..

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25026302-5013871,00.html

Just goes to show how much the great unwashed know and understand of national monetary and fiscal matters. It's all about their hip pocket, eh?

It's really ironic. I don't get the 950 smackeroos but my wife does and 2 of my children. And I think I can get up to 1600 of them for an insulation rort. None of us really need it but there you go. I think it will just go towards an overseas trip. Just imagine what this money could do for people impacted by the bushfires! And before you lecture me about donating it to the bushfire fund, yes I will be donating. But it's just appalling gummint policy.

 

[pacestick]

Introduce work for the unemployment benefit for every person after 6 months of unemployment assistance.

I guarantee you will see more bludgers jumping off the couches and beds around Australia faster than one could ever point a stick at.

To right many of them work the system to the utmost for instance if you are unemployed and go on a taffe course for one term you get paid benefits for a whole year and you dont have to go back for the last three terms . It helped my son when his class fell from 40 to 10 more time with teacher,
I personally know of one individual who has used government money to be trained as a child care worker then as a nurse because she doesnt want to go to work. Its a real problem.

 

[Calliope]

Nick Xenophon has the perfect opportunity to shame the Rudd government into diverting his popular handouts toward massive relief for the fire victims. Having seen first hand the horrific devastation to lives and property Mr Rudd does not have the right to play politics on this issue. He may lose in the popularity stakes but he would sleep better at night.

In addition to relief and rebuilding, the stage has been reached for massive injections into infrastructure to ensure SA and Vic never lose another life through lack of water.

 

[Prospector]

Nick Xenophon has the perfect opportunity to shame the Rudd government into diverting his popular handouts toward massive relief for the fire victims. Having seen first hand the horrific devastation to lives and property Mr Rudd does not have the right to play politics on this issue. He may lose in the popularity stakes but he would sleep better at night.

In addition to relief and rebuilding, the stage has been reached for massive injections into infrastructure to ensure SA and Vic never lose another life through lack of water.

Hear hear to all of that!

 

[Julia]

Nick Xenophon has the perfect opportunity to shame the Rudd government into diverting his popular handouts toward massive relief for the fire victims. Having seen first hand the horrific devastation to lives and property Mr Rudd does not have the right to play politics on this issue. He may lose in the popularity stakes but he would sleep better at night.

In addition to relief and rebuilding, the stage has been reached for massive injections into infrastructure to ensure SA and Vic never lose another life through lack of water.

Completely agree on both counts. Rudd won't do it though. More votes to be had from all those $950 handouts than anyone connected with the fires.

 

[profit off it]

On "The Insiders" this morning Julia Gillard was asked about the unemployed receiving no hand out in Package No. 2 other than the 'training bonus'. Barry Cassidy suggested to her that to expect people on Newstart to live on $225 p.w. was pretty unrealistic. She skipped over the question (of course) and went on to laud the benefits of the training available.

Given that we may well see increased numbers of people seeking this benefit, is the government's approach yet another example of their short term view?
i.e. if people can't meet their mortgage repayments/rent, don't we then have a much greater problem to deal with in the form of homelessness, not to mention the personal distress of individuals?

And we might imagine that people who have been in the workforce for a while will be able to bolster the government's meagre assistance by using their own savings to supplement their government benefit. Ah but no, a single person may not be eligible for Newstart until their level of personal assets is less than $2500.

Isn't this completely unreasonable and in fact counter-productive?

My feeling is that the Federal Government always had the intention of increasing pensions and unemployment benefits in the upcoming Federal Budget, despite the pressure on them to do something earlier. If they did it now, along with all the other stimulus measures, they wouldn't have a WHAM BAM announcement at Budget time to win over the public and hit the opposition with. They are closer to the next election than the last, and need to make an impact to set themselves up for 2010. I guess we will see in May.

 

[aleckara]

Yes, that might go a long way towards addressing the shortage of nurses.
Better still, bring back the old system where nurses were trained in the hospitals, getting lots of hands on experience and getting paid a small wage at the same time. They lived in the nurses quarters for minimal rental, had all their meals provided, were accommodated right there on the job site......a far better system that what's in place today with nursing being a uni course, big on classroom experience but small on practical experience. And a dirty big hex bill at the end of it. Crazy.
My wife has a number of nursing degrees. She trained through the hospital system, says the uni trained nurses these days are graduating with limited practical skills due to their limited hands-on experience. She reckons the current nurse training system is a poor substitute for the old hospital-based training system.

There are a lot of new nurses as well that are complaining that the old nurses know nothing about newer medications and don't know the medical side of training and give people the wrong care. The experience takes a few years to get but knowledge is important as well.

Admittedly I think the role of a nurse has been redefined a lot and now they need a bit more medical knowledge especially with the personal liability they have if they screw up.

The nursing union likes the new system. Keeps wages higher as it effectively stops people from changing to the career when they lose their job or they want to move to it for any reason (barriers to overcoming structural unemployment). Only the young can afford to give up a few years of work to get a degree in nursing.

In this country there is a shortage of anything worthwhile. Everyone aspires to get a cushy lazy job.

 

[Calliope]

I can tell ya that doing nothing is not an option

says Obama in his loud braying voice.

Sound familiar? That's Mr Rudd's mantra. Except when it comes to allocating the billions of dollars needed to redistribute Australia's plentiful water resources to where they are needed desperately.

Pink bats and massive handouts to the undeserving for God's sake. As I have said before;

God helps those who help themselves. Rudd helps those who can't be bothered. And his excuse is that he knows they will spend it more quickly.

 

[Largesse]

says Obama in his loud braying voice.

Sound familiar? That's Mr Rudd's mantra. Except when it comes to allocating the billions of dollars needed to redistribute Australia's plentiful water resources to where they are needed desperately.

Pink bats and massive handouts to the undeserving for God's sake. As I have said before;

God helps those who help themselves. Rudd helps those who can't be bothered. And his excuse is that he knows they will spend it more quickly.

Pull your head in mate, i'm a full time student (yes that's right FULL TIME) trying to live on govt support of ~$180 a week and a measly earnings allowance of ~$125. Don't you dare suggest i 'can't be bothered', mate.

This payment/bonus will make a huge difference to me in very real and very tangible terms

 

[psychic]

I personally believe that the package will not be passed unless the unemployed get the $950 cash payment too.