Rudd and the stockmarket

[chops_a_must]

John Howard said one year after he came into power that he would more than likely change the work place relations law, people have had ‘10’ fricken’ years to try and help their financial situations, and in those ten years look what has happened, 2 stock market booms and 1 massive real estate boom, if people had bothered to notice these things happening earlier on with some research, they most definitely would not be complaining about the money they are losing with the work place relations laws today.

And anyway where would most people be for their retirement years now if it wasn’t for the superannuation in 1996 which I think Paul Keating was responsible, the outlook financially for this country would be a hell of a lot worse.

But what if you are one of the many people like me who have come into the workforce during that time, with no ability to get ahead or adjust as you have suggested?

What if you have seen the education opportunities you favoured, taken away from you? Like has happened to my generation. What if the only way you feel you can be educated in the way you want is to go overseas, to get a job related to your education and natural skill set?

It seems a natural disgrace to me that education is almost scorned upon, where labourers and tradies are paid more than the educated elite in society. Where mid level public servants, the cogs of our society, with university degrees are being paid less than the average wage.

The education system has been utterly destroyed by this government whilst capitalising on the wave of anti-intellectualism this country has been engilfed in. /rant

But I agree with you, Paul Keating to me is the main reason for the substantial long term gains people have had in the share market.

Cheers,
Chops.

 

[Julia]

But what if you are one of the many people like me who have come into the workforce during that time, with no ability to get ahead or adjust as you have suggested?

What if you have seen the education opportunities you favoured, taken away from you? Like has happened to my generation. What if the only way you feel you can be educated in the way you want is to go overseas, to get a job related to your education and natural skill set?

It seems a natural disgrace to me that education is almost scorned upon, where labourers and tradies are paid more than the educated elite in society. Where mid level public servants, the cogs of our society, with university degrees are being paid less than the average wage.

The education system has been utterly destroyed by this government whilst capitalising on the wave of anti-intellectualism this country has been engilfed in. /rant

But I agree with you, Paul Keating to me is the main reason for the substantial long term gains people have had in the share market.

Cheers,
Chops.

Chops, perhaps you have chosen a type of education which doesn't allow for as much financial reward as in other areas. (I think I recall your saying you were a massage therapist or something like that? Apologies if I have that wrong).
I can really understand the frustration of people who have chosen years of study instead of, say, a trade. The latter appears to bring substantial incomes in a fairly short time.
But education is of value simply for its own sake, isn't it? It's something you will have as part of you long after that plumber can no longer crawl down drains or that painter climb over a roof.

 

[Julia]

And with the major superannuation schemes that are happening this year less than 30% have actually done anything about it.

In the end, the major people who are going to loss a lot with the wok place relation laws, are the same people that said investing in the share market and real estate were to risky, when all the time relying entirely on your job as your only source of income, was by far the most riskiest investment of all.


SPARTN

:viking:

Yep, agreed entirely. A couple who are friends of mine are high earners (psychologist and education consultant), no children, in their mid 50's.
Apart from their home (which they have as a result of an inheritance), they have no savings, and even now are not salary sacrificing into Super. They simply prefer not to think about retirement and just spend what they earn.

Re the comment above that "investing in the share market and real estate were too risky", again, agreed. I remember when I bought my first investment property all the doom merchants telling me I'd have trouble with tenants, maintenance would ruin my profits, I could lose some of my capital etc etc. Yes, I suppose any of that could have happened. But it didn't and I doubled my money in two years. There will always be a "reason" not to do something.

 

[chops_a_must]

Chops, perhaps you have chosen a type of education which doesn't allow for as much financial reward as in other areas. (I think I recall your saying you were a massage therapist or something like that? Apologies if I have that wrong).
I can really understand the frustration of people who have chosen years of study instead of, say, a trade. The latter appears to bring substantial incomes in a fairly short time.

Yus, you are correct. But my first choice of occupations would be one in academia eventually (not a good choice if you live in Australia) aside from my present work.

But education is of value simply for its own sake, isn't it? It's something you will have as part of you long after that plumber can no longer crawl down drains or that painter climb over a roof.

You are spot on there Julia. It's just in Australia, the prevailing attitude is against this. The "Why are you studying that?" voice is in charge. Unfortunately, education seems not to be something emphasised in Australia, which is sad, and certainly, because of this attitude, the rewards for being intelligent, knowledgeable and educated just aren't here in Australia (at least not in classically important areas).

 

[Smurf1976]

I wouldn't want any politician handling my investments. Not one cent of it. They sold gold and financial assets before the boom to repay debt at a time of rampant asset price inflation and low nominal interest rates. That's been a dud investment strategy by any definition and yet that's exactly what they've done.

It's anything but good economic management unless losing money was somehow the objective.

The winners under these conditions have been those who did the exact opposite of what the government itself has been doing. Those who increased debt and aquired assets have gained. Those who sold assets (such as the government) and repaid debt have gone backwards in real terms - their cash wouldn't buy back anywhere near what they sold.

A very significant point that is conveniently ignored whilst extolling their economic credentials. Our leaders are themselves failed investors.

At least they're good for one thing though. They make a truly wonderful contrarian indicator.

They said oil won't stay over $30 for long and petrol prices will drop. Thankfully I invested in oil stocks.

They sold the gold at the bottom of the market. Just as well I bought gold stocks.

They keep going on and on about low interest rates. I pity anyone who didn't fix their massive mortgage before rates went up.

In the event that Labor gets elected, at least there's a job in investment newsletter writing waiting for Howard and Costello. They say sell - so you buy. They say it's going up - so you sell. Their track record is close to 100% as long as you do the exact opposite of what they're saying.

I'll give them credit where it's due though. At least they admit they don't know much about business and ought not be running one. They're spot on about that one unless it's a business with the objective of making dud investment calls.

I'm not wanting to be anti-Liberal here though. Labor would likely have done no better and may even do worse (if that's possible). Strangely enough, the Greens have got it right in the past about commodity prices but I doubt very much that was anything more than a convenient coincidence that suited their objectives at the time since they haven't reversed position now that commodity prices have been rising. Politicians in general are not good with money.

 

[moXJO]

It seems a natural disgrace to me that education is almost scorned upon, where labourers and tradies are paid more than the educated elite in society. Where mid level public servants, the cogs of our society, with university degrees are being paid less than the average wage.

Chops.

Given that laborers and tradies are destroying their bodies, get exposed to all types of dangers and liability problems, and for the most have the risk of going without work for sometimes months this is a stupid thing to say. The work is seasonal at best and a few years of good times make the job worth doing and for some not by much. Considering the family house is usually on the line, you have clients that don’t pay or builders going bankrupt the one thing that gets you through is enough workload which we were lucky to get in the boom. All this is one of the reasons all the tradesmen have run to the mines, consistency of work and liability is someone else’s problem.

Why is someone that has spent years learning their trade through hard work, less then someone that sat on their ass for a few years and got a uni degree in something with limited work opportunities? Either do it for the love or the money.

 

[greggy]

I would question that union representation is no more dominant in the labour party than in society in general. I don't have the figures, but I understand union membership is consistently falling.

Nioka, You appear to have made up your mind about voting Labor.
How do you reconcile the concern about the country being wall to wall Labor with both Federal and all the State governments? Doesn't seem too balanced to me. Why are you so sure the Unions would not dominate under a scenario like this? You will have Greg Combet actually in the government.
How many favours do you think he will be needing to pay back to all his Union mates and Labor party stalwarts who have shoved the previous member out to make way for him?

I do agree that there is too great a divide in our society between those who have done extremely well in recent years and those who have been left behind. But on the other hand, the opportunities have been there. There will always be a portion of the population who nurse a victim mindset and will never make the effort to change their circumstances.

I'd like to see some social changes, but I am not convinced that country-wide Labor will bring any sort of cohesion to the problems we presently experience.

Hi Julia,

The last figure I saw was that 15% of employees were union members. As I've said before, I'm still on the fence, but any party having control of all the state govts plus the fed govt is a bit of a worry. But the polls are still indicating that Rudd is still well ahead. The Howard govt will need to pull something out of the hat if it wants to win another term. Economically we are in a good position yet the voters don't seem to be listening. Presumably many feel that Mr Rudd, not being like Latham or Whitlam, will be a safe pair of hands. Only time will tell.

 

[trading_rookie]

Originally Posted by chops_a_must
It seems a natural disgrace to me that education is almost scorned upon, where labourers and tradies are paid more than the educated elite in society. Where mid level public servants, the cogs of our society, with university degrees are being paid less than the average wage.

Chops.

Another reason why I'm not impressed with federal labor,
which seems to be more and more a front for former ACTU secretaries who love(d) nothing more than ramping up the salaries of paid up affilliates the MUA, CFMEU, etc etc...

 

[Sprinter79]

GOD DAMN, there are some dick brained statements on here....

Unfortumately, to most people, the unions are just the big fat pricks you see manning picket lines (mostly from the CFMEU). That's not the case. I am a union delegate, in a sector that has above average union representation. When the **** hits the fan, and the employer tries to take away conditions in the agreed to Award, you have to rely on employee representation. As a non-unionised workforce, you have no bargaining power whatsoever, despite all the 'assurances' given. Only with collective bargaining can you be duely rewarded for the work you do for the company.

At the moment, the pendulum has swung dangerously to the right hand side, and anyone who argues otherwise has their head up their ****. The Workchoices legislation (which has now been revealed as a mistake by Howard http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=268676 ) was pretty much the end of the line.

Taking away basic rights such as free association is bordering on a Dictatorship. If you think I'm overeacting, by pressuring people to not become members of Unions, you are doing just that. By refusing entry to Union officials, and Delegates (like myself) for official union business you are denying employees representation, and the right to associate with whom you wish. I will be the first to admit however, that certain elements of the union movt make the rest of us look pretty bad, and have taken advantage of this in the past.

BUT, I don't think that the future Labor govt will let the pendulum swing dangerously to the left (yes there is a dangerous side on the left), there is too much at stake. I have had a copy of the Federal Labor IR policy paper for a year or so, and there are still some things to be made public from this, so I can't share it with you all. One thing that is frustrating me is that they are struggling with the compromise with the mining industry, particularly here in WA. If they had stuck to what was written in the policy paper, it would have been sorted by now..

At the end of the day, the party in power won't make much difference to the markets. There may be a shift in the sectors which grow strongly (as has been mentioned previously), but on the whole, there won't be significant change.

Union donations to the Labor party are more than matched by big business donations to the Libs.

As someone who deals with employers and employees all the time, I do have an idea of what is going on. The 'new system' is just as confusing as the previous one, with unfair dismissals being an exception (but that's another story). Since their introduction, there have been less calls to our helpline across our department, due to the fact that people are scared for their job. When people are scared for their job, and have no job security, production levels fall, and that is one thing that should get through all your skulls.

 

[trading_rookie]

As a non-unionised workforce, you have no bargaining power whatsoever, despite all the 'assurances' given. Only with collective bargaining can you be duely rewarded for the work you do for the company

That's right, why only a union like the MUA could guarantee a salary of 75K in the late 80's for working an 8 hour day...where do I sign up!

Fancy the CFMEU wanting it's members to be paid while on strike...please where do I sign up!

Taking away basic rights such as free association is bordering on a Dictatorship

When did the coalition say they would abolish this right? You have the choice of either individual contract or if you prefer have a union representative bargain on your behalf - difference is the ALP might even charge you for this 'right', we won't know until after the election since they won't reveal much. There you go, some more 'dick-brained' food for thought.

ps - no need to get back to me asap, I understand the workers are getting ready to strike over the toilet chain being too short, or did that only happen in the bad old days...

 

[CanOz]

GOD DAMN, there are some dick brained statements on here....

And here are a few:

Only with collective bargaining can you be duely rewarded for the work you do for the company.

Taking away basic rights such as free association is bordering on a Dictatorship.

If you think I'm overeacting, by pressuring people to not become members of Unions, you are doing just that.

Since their introduction, there have been less calls to our helpline across our department, due to the fact that people are scared for their job. When people are scared for their job, and have no job security, production levels fall, and that is one thing that should get through all your skulls

Spoken like a true Union Rep.

 

[trading_rookie]

That's right, why only a union like the MUA could guarantee a salary of 75K in the late 80's for working an 8 hour day...where do I sign up!

That should have read 8 hours a week not day...for some reason I can't edit my posts no more.

 

[Broadside]

Workplace reform should be about finding balance. As a lifelong Lib voter I have to say the pendulum has swung too far to the right and into the hands of employers...there are unscrupulous ones out there you know! Sure the same can be said for employees, hence the need for balance.

The thing is, these are boom times for Australia, full employment, high wages....when the economy hits a rough patch, as it inevitably will, a lot of workers are going to be treated very very badly. Not necessarily out of economic necessity by the boss - but simply because the boss is in a position to do so.

I don't want to see the bad days of strikes and secondary boycotts etc, but there has to be a happy medium.

 

[The Mint Man]

Since their introduction, there have been less calls to our helpline across our department, due to the fact that people are scared for their job. When people are scared for their job, and have no job security, production levels fall, and that is one thing that should get through all your skulls.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought the most recent productivity statistics showed an increase

While I agree that unions are good for some workplace issues, IMO unions are a bunch of trouble making mugs 90% of the time.... I speak not just from my own experience but others as well. The CFMEU would have to be at the top of my mug list.
heres an example:

The politics of the moment and union self interest makes it tempting for union officials to take any and every hardship or tragedy that occurs in Australian workplaces and try to pin it on WorkChoices. It might be expedient to do so, but it is both opportunistic and wrong. It weakens the credibility of other criticisms that unions make about WorkChoices.
Two regrettable examples of this have recently arisen in the construction industry:
On 3 July the CFMEU issued a public statement following a fatality on a Canberra building site announcing that it “will attempt to enter the site to investigate the circumstances” to determine whether the Prime Minister and Minister Andrews “have blood on their hands.”
That union officials are deeply concerned at a fatality is entirely proper, but such language serves to politicise a tragedy, especially when ACT Federal Police, the Coroner and WorkCover investigators had attended the site and the Federal Safety Commissioner was already liaising with WorkCover and the principal contractor.
Earlier in May 2006, the Australian Building and Construction Commissioner, John Lloyd, an independent statutory regulator, released findings of an investigation into claims Melbourne building workers’ pay was docked after “they stopped work briefly to collect money for the family of a colleague killed in Pakenham in March.”
The regulator found that the dispute over docking of pay was a union attempt to advance its industrial objectives in regard to the workplace relations reforms of the Australian Government. He concluded that “the collection of donations for a widow of a deceased worker is commendable but the use of such an occasion to advance the CFMEU’s industrial objectives is regrettable.”
It is for industry to put these facts on the table and for the community to urge its union leaders to stop playing political football with health and safety, and work with employers and governments to implement the ten-year National OHS Strategy that Commonwealth, state and territory governments, the ACTU and ACCI jointly adopted in 2002 and which still has six years to run.
There is no reason to believe that WorkChoices will compromise workplace health and safety in Australia in any way. Indeed, the type of change WorkChoices brings could empower employees and employers to take additional constructive initiatives about occupational health and safety. Those constructive steps would be in stark contrast to the current union campaign against WorkChoices.

I just cant support a party that supports the unions like labor does

 

[Sprinter79]

I didn't expect you all to agree with me

To tell you the truth, if we could get rid of CFMEU blokes like Joe McDonald and Kevin Reynolds (over here in WA) the Union movt would be much better off.

Thanks for bringing up the ABCC. The stuff they do is nasty..... Regulator they are, independant they are not.

As for Workchoices bringing about improvements in OHS, that is bollocks. As I mentioned earlier, the reduction in calls to our helpline has reduced since the introduction of these laws. That is fact. The states are also refusing to work with ComCare (the Commonwealth OHS regulator) until the Feds fund it properly. WA's regional ComCare office in is Adelaide ffs.

You only get the choice of a Collective Bargaining Agreement if your employer chooses to offer one. This is ok (at the moment, but things WILL change) if you're in the mining industry and can earn big bucks sitting on your **** all day, but for the poor 16 year old girl working on the checkout at Coles, you get what you're given (ie minimum wage). There are already examples of IGA here in Perth being caught out for doing the wrong thing. They only got found because they were tipped off by another agency.

The minimum wage argument is another issue..... If the CCI got their way, workers would be getting paid in sticks to bring down the bottom line. As it stands, even with the ACTU arguing for higher increases, the minimum wage continues to fall behind. In industries with higher union representation, wages are generally higher, ie mining and construction, and lower in those industries without high union representation, ie hospitality, retail and childcare (remember, generally).

 

[waza1960]

Two comments on unions: 1/ Why are union reps continually on TV commenting on OH &S I thought that was the job of Workcover ? Are they properly qualified to comment? I assume its for free publicity and try and show they are relevent. 2/ I think its a disgrace to our society that we let the unions have public ballots all these years using intimidation to get their way and labour makes a big deal out of introducing a secret ballot in 2007.

 

[Shane Baker]

So what is the LHMWU doing for these poor oppressed people. 2/5 of5/8th of f *** all as usual. The LHMWU actually sided with the QLD Govt recently against Radiographers...their own members, advising that the Radiographers by considering resigning on mass might be acting illegally. If the unions ac tually did something for their members they might actually have a decent constituency.

It makes me sick in the stomach to see this bullsh*t rhetoric. I was actually asked to be the public face of that campaign by the Radiographers as I had left the profession and wasn't susceptible to retribution by the LHMWU or Qld Health. I refused because I didn't want my family opened to media scrutiny and speculation.

I am much happier making my own money trading for a living than dealing with this bull***t. I truly feel sorry for those who don't have the same opportunity to remove themselves from the situation where neither the union or the QLD Govt have their or the public's interests at heart.

Thankfully self employed and happy to be so,

Shane.

 

[YELNATS]

....less then someone that sat on their ass for a few years and got a uni degree in something with limited work opportunities? Either do it for the love or the money.

I can tell you that getting a degree is no easy task. You don't get it by just showing up and looking pretty. It's hard work, mentally and physically, trying to balance a fulltime job, long hours, family commitments and travelling long distances to/from work, uni and home. I know, I did it for 7 years and I'm bl**dy proud of it! regards YN

 

[Shane Baker]

I agree totally. I wouldn't let the bastards grind me down either
I have several tertiary qualifications including Masters Degrees. Nothing worth doing comes easy and the sooner Rudd and his union mates learnt that the better off all of Australia would be.

 

[Sprinter79]

Two comments on unions: 1/ Why are union reps continually on TV commenting on OH &S I thought that was the job of Workcover ? Are they properly qualified to comment? I assume its for free publicity and try and show they are relevent. 2/ I think its a disgrace to our society that we let the unions have public ballots all these years using intimidation to get their way and labour makes a big deal out of introducing a secret ballot in 2007.

1) In WA, the WorkSafe commission was formed by a tripartite committee of UnionsWA (the TLC in former days) the CCI and the govt. This committee is still in operation today. If it wasn't for the unions, there would be no such thing as WorkSafe/WorkCover. There are OHS professionals within each union, and yes, they know what they're talking about. They will put their own spin on things, with their own agendas, BUT they still represent their members on OHS issues (where they can).

2) In 2006, the CPSU/CSA in WA had a secret ballot, and I have run secret ballots in my electorate. The ballots to elect Union Reps are also secret in the CPSU/CSA