Rudd and the stockmarket

[Sprinter79]

So what is the LHMWU doing for these poor oppressed people. 2/5 of5/8th of f *** all as usual. The LHMWU actually sided with the QLD Govt recently against Radiographers...their own members, advising that the Radiographers by considering resigning on mass might be acting illegally. If the unions ac tually did something for their members they might actually have a decent constituency.

I am much happier making my own money trading for a living than dealing with this bull***t. I truly feel sorry for those who don't have the same opportunity to remove themselves from the situation where neither the union or the QLD Govt have their or the public's interests at heart.

I can't comment on this specific example, but what I can say is that the LHMWU is battling a continuing move to casualisation and general apathy amoungst the workers in those industries. Workers in this industry tend(yes tend) to be younger, and as such less educated about their rights and responsibilities.

 

[Sprinter79]

I can tell you that getting a degree is no easy task. You don't get it by just showing up and looking pretty. It's hard work, mentally and physically, trying to balance a fulltime job, long hours, family commitments and travelling long distances to/from work, uni and home. I know, I did it for 7 years and I'm bl**dy proud of it! regards YN

Yep agree there. A BSc and two PGD, but I did that before I had all the responsibilities a family brings on. Kudos to you sir!!

As for "showing up and looking pretty" try telling that to the Commerce students hehehehehe

 

[Shane Baker]

apathy amoungst the workers in those industries

Perhaps instead of deluding ourselves we might ask why the workers are just not interested???

Pehaps because the union is is just not relevant to their life?

Just what is the trend for overall union membership over the last 30 years ??

Don't worry its rhetorical.

 

[Sprinter79]

apathy amoungst the workers in those industries

Perhaps instead of deluding ourselves we might ask why the workers are just not interested???

Pehaps because the union is is just not relevant to their life?

Just what is the trend for overall union membership over the last 30 years ??

Don't worry its rhetorical.

I wasn't just saying that they are apathetic to the union, but to the job as a whole. All they want is to get in, get out, until they finish studying (or whatever) and something better comes along. Again, this is a generalisation. I agree that the union is struggling to find relevance in certain industries at the moment.

 

[moXJO]

I can tell you that getting a degree is no easy task. You don't get it by just showing up and looking pretty. It's hard work, mentally and physically, trying to balance a fulltime job, long hours, family commitments and travelling long distances to/from work, uni and home. I know, I did it for 7 years and I'm bl**dy proud of it! regards YN

A lot of my friends are currently doing a degree atm. One is a mother of 4 girls whose husband is in the last stages of his cancer treatment and she is holding down a full time job. Yes it’s hard to balance for her.And we try to encourage and help her in any way we can when she needs it.

Another completed his biotech and marketing degree he admittedly told me he was so lazy he was surprised he made it through. He once told his lecturer a spider had bit him then had to go to hospital to get a shot and a doctor’s certificate so he could dodge a test and pub crawl that day. He is currently in the US working in neither of the fields he studied in.

So different strokes for different folks. My point in the previous post was just because you did a degree in something with limited work opportunities does not mean you will instantly run out and find a job or you should compare your bloody wages. Then complain you should make more then the next guy by sitting in a job while someone else has to run a SE Business, yes great thinking.
You have a right to be proud, but being jealous of what you think tradies earn with no knowledge of what they have to do to make it. Maybe you should actually find out what half of them do make or have to put on the line to make it.

A friend of mine that owns a lot of business through out Aust once told me "Uni students , ahh that’s what us dumb people like to call Ur Next Imployee".If your not earning enough in your job then find another source of income, not the I have a degree life owes me mentality. And a side note don’t whine about the next guy damnit concentrate on yourself.

 

[Rafa]

Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought the most recent productivity statistics showed an increase

Most of the stuff i have heard is that productivity in Oz is at record lows... (happy to have someone correct me on this too)

Tho I am not sure if this is a result of people not working as hard... or people working against more obstacles... as a result of infrastructure bottlenecks, be it in poor trasport infrastructure or poor broadband, etc, etc...

be interesting to find out more about this...

regardless, holding someone to ransom to make them work longer hours doesn't seem right, we can boost productivity significantly by allowing people to work smarter and faster.

i would like to see us go back to a pre workchoices system (i.e. before 2006) BUT with a single IR Desk, and with unfair dismissal allowed for all small businesses (whatever the definition of small business is... eg turnover < 10mill)

 

[Rafa]

The Australian's Peter Laylor once again....

Joe Hockey and John Howard are now saying they never intended for Work Choices to diminish the work conditions of Australians.

You may choose to believe them, but what they are really saying is they never intended for Work Choices to cost them an election - remember the Prime Minister’s refusal to guarantee there would be no disadvantage to workers under the new system?

Industry is using Australian Workplace Agreement templates to rip off the most vulnerable in our society and it’s interesting that it is Australian young adults who are copping the brunt.

Yesterday the NSW government named three businesses that had been systematically dropping award conditions and underpaying young workers across Australia using an industry supplied template.

Last week I asked readers of this blog to document their experiences of Work Choices. A lot of people who replied were parents worried about the future that faces Australian children.

Have a look at these apples.

Marc of Melbourne wrote:
My 16-year-old daughter has worked at a bakery getting paid $13 odd an hour on Sundays for about 18 months now but the new kids (also 16 y/o) are on an AWA and receive $8 odd an hour. Guess who has had her hours “cut back” and guess which kids are getting the bulk of the shifts? So now the “Aussie values” of Mr Howard is to “stick it to those high flying overpaid kids”!

Don Campbell of Port Macquarie related this story of his son’s experience:
My son agreed to forgo penalty rates while his employer negotiated opening another store - money was tight and my son wanted to help the owner expand the business. He was also promised the management of this new store, so it was to his advantage to agree to this. Unfortunately, the deal fell through. The owner lost a lot of money in trying to expand. Advent WorkChoices - my son had to sign an AWA, signing away $4000 in penalty rates backpay, or lose his job. He signed.

Des Milton of Queensland sent this:
Like many others, I have had one of my kids arrive home from their after-school part-time job in tears. The reason? They were forced to sign an AWA stripping away their meagre penalty rates.

A Darwin parent wrote this tale which predates Work Choice but shows how the AWA can be used to exploit the young:
My son was employed for three years working for a large video rental chain store in Sydney. He had been employed for most of this time on a casual contract but had been elevated to a part time contract with holiday pay and other conditions about six months before he was sacked. He was sacked the week that Work Choices was passed into law. He was sacked allegedly for failing to follow instructions although he disputes that. He was not a union member and was in the final year of his degree so did not pursue an action for unfair dismissal. The same week two of his colleagues were sacked for similar reasons. Now this was not something that could be blamed on Work Choices except that all three were replaced by people working for less pay and conditions. As much as Joe Hockey and John Howard might insist that the situation in McLeod’s Daughters could not legally occur I believe it did in my son’s case, except he did not even have the choice of being reemployed under an AWA. Someone else presumably had that privilege.
Niemoller Darwin

Sebastian of Melbourne works near the new sub class of workers created by the legislation:
I was working night shift one time in Endeavor Hill Shopping centre when I struck up a conversation with some young girls working for Bakers Delight. They told me they were forced to sign a AWA or face getting bad shifts. I could not believe it. Is this what Howard wants, ie to welcome young Australians to the workforce like this? My god, people, trust me. This man has to go, and I hope soon.

I could go on, but I think it is this message from John, a Liberal voter, which best explains why the government is spending so much to try and muddy the waters around its legislation:
I am a traditional Liberal voter residing in Kooyong, a blue-ribbon Liberal seat. However, at the next federal election I will be voting for Labor. The reason is simple; I have two sons about to enter the workforce. Sorry, Petro! You are the only decent politician remaining in the Coalition, and certainly the most courageous, but I have to make a stand. Howard introduced the Work Choice legislation without a mandate and he and his government must pay the price. John Kew

I do not pretend to understand the legislation. It is the length of a novel (almost 80,000 words), it has been amended and is being amended.

And the strangest thing is that while the government is spending millions trumpeting a new no disadvantage clause it has not even written the next addition to this gloomy act so we’ll have to trust them on that.

The government will argue that some of the above behaviour is or will be made illegal but the electorate doesn’t seem to believe Mr Howard has the will to stop employers behaving like this should he be returned at the election.

The electorate also knows that teenagers and the weakest members of society are never in a strong bargaining position when the choice is to work or not to work.

There were many who responded to the last blog with tales of abuse by employees using the legislation. Some employees themselves said they thought the Act was unfair and an employee’s lawyer said the same thing.

I will end with this sad story:
The workchoices has really tipped the balance in favour of employers in some nasty ways and brought out the worst in supervisors. My wife and I work for different parts of the same large employer and have AWAs. A condition in the AWA is that we can’t even discuss our respective pay levels or terms and conditions or we breach the agreements. My boss and his superiors seem to relish deploying the power without restraint or common decency - it’s always ‘operational reasons’. It really is take it or leave where we work. It came to a head when our son was born in March. Once my wife’s three months parental leave is up it has been made clear that I won’t be getting any time to look after him for ‘operational reasons’. Hate is terrible thing to take to work every day. I’d love to share the details but I can’t or I’ll breach my AWA! So we can’t wait for Mr Howard to be brave enough to call an election. Stephen Sydney

Hate is a terrible thing to take to work and it is a dangerous thing to take into a Federal election.

 

[Rafa]

I note that the Daily Telegraph has a story today about hotels stripping away almost all award conditions and paying people $13.47 an hour as compensation. The best bit is that the rules for the new underclass include not adjusting your bra strap or hair while at work. And Joe Hockey says the crux of the debate is that Julia Gillard is prettier than him!

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21778739-5001021,00.

 

[greggy]

GOD DAMN, there are some dick brained statements on here....

Unfortumately, to most people, the unions are just the big fat pricks you see manning picket lines (mostly from the CFMEU). That's not the case. I am a union delegate, in a sector that has above average union representation. When the **** hits the fan, and the employer tries to take away conditions in the agreed to Award, you have to rely on employee representation. As a non-unionised workforce, you have no bargaining power whatsoever, despite all the 'assurances' given. Only with collective bargaining can you be duely rewarded for the work you do for the company.

At the moment, the pendulum has swung dangerously to the right hand side, and anyone who argues otherwise has their head up their ****. The Workchoices legislation (which has now been revealed as a mistake by Howard http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=268676 ) was pretty much the end of the line.

Taking away basic rights such as free association is bordering on a Dictatorship. If you think I'm overeacting, by pressuring people to not become members of Unions, you are doing just that. By refusing entry to Union officials, and Delegates (like myself) for official union business you are denying employees representation, and the right to associate with whom you wish. I will be the first to admit however, that certain elements of the union movt make the rest of us look pretty bad, and have taken advantage of this in the past.

BUT, I don't think that the future Labor govt will let the pendulum swing dangerously to the left (yes there is a dangerous side on the left), there is too much at stake. I have had a copy of the Federal Labor IR policy paper for a year or so, and there are still some things to be made public from this, so I can't share it with you all. One thing that is frustrating me is that they are struggling with the compromise with the mining industry, particularly here in WA. If they had stuck to what was written in the policy paper, it would have been sorted by now..

At the end of the day, the party in power won't make much difference to the markets. There may be a shift in the sectors which grow strongly (as has been mentioned previously), but on the whole, there won't be significant change.

Union donations to the Labor party are more than matched by big business donations to the Libs.

As someone who deals with employers and employees all the time, I do have an idea of what is going on. The 'new system' is just as confusing as the previous one, with unfair dismissals being an exception (but that's another story). Since their introduction, there have been less calls to our helpline across our department, due to the fact that people are scared for their job. When people are scared for their job, and have no job security, production levels fall, and that is one thing that should get through all your skulls.

Hi Sprinter79,

"There are some dick brained statements on here" you say. Being a union delegate you are clearly passionate about IR, but please try to use less colourful language. Everyone is entitled to their own views. I have commented myself on my take on the IR Laws. Some employers have used the IR Laws to reduce their employees wages, no doubt about that. Its obviously also easier to get the sack. But its also not one way traffic either. There are many good employers out there who reward their staff. But Sprinter79 I worry about what's going to happen when the economy turns sour. Hard working employees need greater protection.

 

[trading_rookie]

I have no problem with salary reductions if the cost of living is also reduced. This is the only way to make Oz more competitive in a global market and stop offshoring.

What's the point of fighting for a few more dollars if the company decides to relocate your job or itself overseas?
What will the almighty unions do?? Nothing, what can they do except whinge about boycotting the product or service...doubt it would even cross their minds to refund members fully paid up memberships

I read in a business rag not long ago about BMW planning to offshore production to Poland but the German unions were able to convince them to build a new plant in Leipzig, East Germany where unemployment was very high.

The deal clincher? Workers work on Saturdays without pay and a loss of some conditions - can't recall exactly.

Seems to me this is where Oz will be heading if our mentality doesn't change. Case of two steps forward and one back when we realise the high wage bubble will bust and we too will be happy to accept working on a Saturday for nothing. Unless of course we act proactively rather then reactively...

 

[Rafa]

i think history will record the years from 1950 - 2020 as a golden age where prosperity spread beyond the 'old' rich.

but i doubt a race to the bottom in wages is going to bring down the cost of living... we are already seeing prices of goods go up, not becuase of increases in local demand, but becuase wealtheir people in asia are willing to pay more for Australian produce than what they can get in Australian markets...

there are 6 billion people in the world at present...
we need to decide how we want be compete, on lowest wages, or by having the smartest employees and the best infrastructure.


(far out, i sound like Rudd!!!... this was not the intention, i can assure you... but this IR issue is certainly driving me more towards labor at present)

 

[trading_rookie]

we need to decide how we want be compete, on lowest wages, or by having the smartest employees and the best infrastructure.

What exactly is a smart employee? One that can adapt to change (change!?!?! we can’t even contemplate a change to IR!) or a well educated employee?

The above quote reminds me of an ‘offshore’ recruiter who said Australians were too smart to be doing manual and processing work. We should be concentrating on being innovative! Nearly fell off my chair in hysterics.

Not everyone is cut out to come up with brilliant ideas, and most ideas are just that, they never eventuate into fruition. Probably explains why so many look to see what’s happening in the US and try and bring it here. Maybe we can classify John Sydmonds as innovative for going abroad to the US and ‘borrowing;’ their mortgage model he used for Aussie Home Loans.

Innovation is only half the problem, there are countless examples of lack of confidence from governments and private backers that has seen Aussie ingenuity end up filling the pockets of foreigners…black box recorder and the photocopier are in the legend status. Not that long ago, two Aussie writers came up with a screenplay for a low-budget slasher flick called ‘Saw’. Private backers of the film industry weren’t interested in this ‘sleeper’ that ended up offshore in Hollywood making it’s producers and backers a huge profit.

If by smart employee Rudd means a well educated one, well I don’t think that’s really going to sway a board of directors remaining here in Australia if the bottom line is being affected. Reduction in head count and cost cutting have more weight on an exec’s bonus being paid than say hiring the ‘smartest from the smart’

Maybe Kev forgot about Singapore. From third world nation to first world and a country of ‘smart’ lower paid workers in comparison to Australia. Singaporeans do enjoy paying lower tax, pay no bank fees and can use their nest eggs (super) long before they hit 60.

ps - Not having a go at you Rafa, comments are all directed at Rudd.

 

[Rafa]

ps - Not having a go at you Rafa, comments are all directed at Rudd.

Nice one...
I agree with most of your statements...
But where do you see this race towards the smart low paid workers ending?

Does anyone know about Scadinavian countries... They seem to have it all, the socialist backbone, yet a highly productive, highly innovative workforce....

Are they all that they are cranked up to be? Is there anything we can learn from them, or did they just fluke it...

 

[Spaghetti]

Singapore is not a great example.

 

[Spaghetti]

Norway is a great example. Living off a resource boom like us, however everyone benefits and they have the highest standard of living in the world.

 

[Julia]

Norway is a great example. Living off a resource boom like us, however everyone benefits and they have the highest standard of living in the world.

Don't they also have one of the highest rates of taxation?

 

[Sprinter79]

Hi Sprinter79,

"There are some dick brained statements on here" you say. Being a union delegate you are clearly passionate about IR, but please try to use less colourful language. Everyone is entitled to their own views. I have commented myself on my take on the IR Laws. Some employers have used the IR Laws to reduce their employees wages, no doubt about that. Its obviously also easier to get the sack. But its also not one way traffic either. There are many good employers out there who reward their staff. But Sprinter79 I worry about what's going to happen when the economy turns sour. Hard working employees need greater protection.

Pfft, I can use colourful language if I want, you **** ***** ****** **** ******** hehehehe

Don't forget, I'm entitled to my opinion too, and can choose to express this opinion in a way I see fit :

Yes there are nasty employers out there who take it to the extreme, and there are great employers too, however, when you MUST offer an AWA (such as WA TAFE's, if they didn't they would loose Federal funding) it makes it damn hard to do the right thing.
When the economy turns, those who are without the protection of an organisation like the Union will cop it in the neck. Like I've said previously, the minimum wage and the various OHS legislators around the country wouldn't exist without unions.

Anyone remember Court's rein in WA? Or are we all suffering from a "Short memory, must have a shooooooooorrrrrrrrtttttttt memory"

 

[Sprinter79]

Don't they also have one of the highest rates of taxation?

I'd have no probs paying more tax if it was spent on health and education

 

[moXJO]

Sprinter79 , Probably obvious that I'm not thrilled at the prospects of Unions getting their hands on anything. But I would be interested in your opinions on small business and unfair dismissal laws ,or at least a union perspective. Sorry for being off topic.

 

[Sprinter79]

Sprinter79 , Probably obvious that I'm not thrilled at the prospects of Unions getting their hands on anything. But I would be interested in your opinions on small business and unfair dismissal laws ,or at least a union perspective. Sorry for being off topic.

No probs, for a start, I'm nothing like the militant union guys you see literally throwing their weight around haha. I work in the public service, and represent white collar workers, generally with a blue collar background, so I get the best of both worlds. Blue flu with white cholera is a nasty combo :

Anyway, unfair dismissal is a touchy subject and does cause division in the union movement. I can't give you a 'whole of union' take on it, but I can give you mine. Personally, i see the need for protections to be built in, but you can't have it so that it is impossible to sack someone if they aren't doing the job properly or meeting expectations. I personally, and professionally, know of cases where a fired employee has brought frivolous claims on the employer. Its a huge waste of money and time, and that does act as a HUGE deterant (sp??) to firing someone.

Soooooo, in essence, I definately believe that a happy medium can found on this issue. The way the Feds made the distinction was problematic, and allowed for huge companies to take advantage of the cut off point. That wasn't the intention, but ended up being the reality. But, where do you draw the line in the sand? 100 employees? 50 employees? 20 employees? What about using cashflow, or even assets? How do you stop big business from finding loopholes? So many questions....

At the end of the day, things HAD to change in that regard. I'm fine with that. I don't think it was done well, but i don't necesarily think Labor has the answer atm either (from their IR policy paper I have locked away). It will take some time to find that balance, but the pendulum has nearly swung off its hinges on the right side :