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cynic said:
Is it possible for a human to experience, necessary and beneficial, suffering, whilst being ignorant to that fact?

Your own answer to this question, as demonstrated by your responses to the newborn infant bottom smacking analogy, is clearly yes!

So when translating that analogy to the relationship between an omniscient being and human subjects of limited knowledge experience and wisdom, the possibility that all suffering may potentially have a valid purpose, the understanding of which lies beyond humanity's current level of awareness, is quite easy to entertain and difficult to entirely dismiss.

So unless you have a better argument, I shall ask you again why you choose to live and propagate, when, according to your very own perceptions, you do indeed have the power to reduce the amount of future human suffering by simply choosing to self terminate?

How is your decision to propagate the species, and continue to live, acts that clearly result in further experience of human suffering, rational and justifiable in your philosophy?
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Already answered all your questions before dude.

But yes, like Nietzsche says, what kills you makes you stronger and God more benevolent. :rolleyes:
 
luutzu said:
Already answered all your questions before dude.

But yes, like Nietzsche says, what kills you makes you stronger and God more benevolent. :rolleyes:
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Ahem. Really! So you have given me a rational explanation for your willingness to endure a life that will of necessity entail some suffering and confer same on the children you chose to parent?

I cannot seem to find anything remotely resembling an answer amongst your various posted responses.

However, that is a matter I find unsurprising. My efforts to find rationality in the voluntary continuation of an (at times uncomfortable) temporal existence, have yet to yield a meaningful result, so I would have been genuinely surprised if the answer didn't prove elusive to you also.
 
cynic said:
Ahem. Really! So you have given me a rational explanation for your willingness to endure a life that will of necessity entail some suffering and confer same on the children you chose to parent?

I cannot seem to find anything remotely resembling an answer amongst your various posted responses.

However, that is a matter I find unsurprising. My efforts to find rationality in the voluntary continuation of an (at times uncomfortable) temporal existence, have yet to yield a meaningful result, so I would have been genuinely surprised if the answer didn't prove elusive to you also.
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Wot?

I did say that if I have God's power to end all suffering, I would use it. You know, not being a psycho who can save people from miseries but instead chose to sit back and watch them "grow" from their pain or death.

Since I have no godly power to prevent suffering to myself, or to others, how is it not rational for me to go on living knowing that there will be suffering? Not when the little good I do might help other ease their suffering; or the hardwork and lottery play may one day lead to fortunes where I could extend life, cure cancer and end world hunger... all the while fighting the Joker, Two-Face and their gangs.

There's no such thing as "rationality" in you, or anyone else... well, maybe it'd be rational for you, to suffer at times. But why must there be any rational explanation for anyone's suffering? Sometimes shiet just happen, even to good or God-fearing people.
 
luutzu said:
Wot?

I did say that if I have God's power to end all suffering, I would use it. You know, not being a psycho who can save people from miseries but instead chose to sit back and watch them "grow" from their pain or death.

Since I have no godly power to prevent suffering to myself, or to others, how is it not rational for me to go on living knowing that there will be suffering? Not when the little good I do might help other ease their suffering; or the hardwork and lottery play may one day lead to fortunes where I could extend life, cure cancer and end world hunger... all the while fighting the Joker, Two-Face and their gangs.

There's no such thing as "rationality" in you, or anyone else... well, maybe it'd be rational for you, to suffer at times. But why must there be any rational explanation for anyone's suffering? Sometimes shiet just happen, even to good or God-fearing people.
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As I have already pointed out to you, you already have the power to reduce human suffering! And you are to be commended for having demonstrated wisdom in choosing not to exercise that power!
 
cynic said:
As I have already pointed out to you, you already have the power to reduce human suffering! And you are to be commended for having demonstrated wisdom in choosing not to exercise that power!
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You can't end suffering by committing murder dude. A few criminals tried that, the Judge didn't buy it.
 
cynic said:
How can you fault the logic? Fewer humans means fewer humans suffering!
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That logic is a fallacy. For it to be true, it must mean that being humans always mean being made to suffer. That's not true now is it?

Not all human suffer. Some are luckier than others.

So to remove the cause of such suffering is the only way to ensure less suffering. Not reducing the number of "sufferers". You can test by, say, getting rid of those we "know" to not suffer at all. Less humans, still the same amount of suffering.
 
luutzu said:
That logic is a fallacy. For it to be true, it must mean that being humans always mean being made to suffer. That's not true now is it?

Not all human suffer. Some are luckier than others.

So to remove the cause of such suffering is the only way to ensure less suffering. Not reducing the number of "sufferers". You can test by, say, getting rid of those we "know" to not suffer at all. Less humans, still the same amount of suffering.
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Wrong!!!

Pain is something that causes suffering!

How long do you believe that anyone (with the possible exception of a human vegetable) can survive if you eliminate pain?
 
cynic said:
Wrong!!!

Pain is something that causes suffering!

How long do you believe that anyone (with the possible exception of a human vegetable) can survive if you eliminate pain?
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Back to earlier posts, I already define what I meant by human suffering.

You're trying to define it as some sort of sensory, neuron signalling mechanism. Dude, we're talking about war, famine, incurable diseases, easily curable diseases but no money to get treatment.

It's ridiculous to compare personal pain or heartbreak to the plights of most of humanity. So unless you reckon that a mudslide is god's way of killing off people and rejuvenate the soil...
 
SirRumpole said:
Ever heard of Karma ?
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Karma might eventually happen. Just I know quite a few bastards and they tend to live long and prospers.

Then there are some who do right by people but ends up not having any money or assets and be seen as some sort of beggar.
 
luutzu said:
Karma might eventually happen. Just I know quite a few bastards and they tend to live long and prospers.

Then there are some who do right by people but ends up not having any money or assets and be seen as some sort of beggar.
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No question humanity is not fair and considerate. If the a/holes can roll an old lady for a few bucks they do it. Then at the upper levels of power the pain and suffering a few elite cause is allowed to pass. Don't expect fairness in the world. I pray (to something) that the a/holes in the world suffer horribly.
 
Wysiwyg said:
No question humanity is not fair and considerate. If the a/holes can roll an old lady for a few bucks they do it. Then at the upper levels of power the pain and suffering a few elite cause is allowed to pass. Don't expect fairness in the world. I pray (to something) that the a/holes in the world suffer horribly.
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Yea, hope so too.

Some people are amazing pieces of work. Man, they don't just steal and screw strangers, they actually turn around and screw people who literally go out of their way to help them.

I like to think they will end up getting their just desert [deserve?]. But they often live too long and enjoy life too much it make me question the existence of God and maybe He ought to stop perving on kids masturbating and punish the real villains.
 
grah33 said:
i did give an example remember. was it about a week ago? Search barry... this guy barry with the 3 new discs that came from nowhere. The woman saw him with a bent over back, then straightened and made normal. the guy was in great pain as well before. she gave me more details about a particular healing service where it happened. That's a special case (people around him that knew him saw him change). And the doctors didn't want to give him the scans (showing the 3 new discs that appeared, they were taken out before) , as they said they could get sued. I also recently uncovered more information about him (for my own interest). In that time he was attending a certain prayer meeting where I know some of those people. And they know the story well, and I know one of them who tells that story doesn't lie. Before he got cured though, from what i've learnt, he was reforming himself to be a better person. It's obviously not gonna happen to someone who can't even be bothered showing up to church once a week. side comment: i'm sure there have been many people going to these kinds of events, and finding themselves to believe readily enough after some experience, yet ditching it. i guess it's hard living the way God requires. Even the Israelites after seeing divine glory (the one off miracles in biblical history ) were very quick to ditch the covenant God made to them through Moses.
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Can you post some more details about this “Barry” guy, some before and after X-rays to prove he regrew discs,

But why aren’t devotees regrowing arms and legs?

I think this song sums up your claims the best

 
luutzu said:
Back to earlier posts, I already define what I meant by human suffering.

You're trying to define it as some sort of sensory, neuron signalling mechanism. Dude, we're talking about war, famine, incurable diseases, easily curable diseases but no money to get treatment.

It's ridiculous to compare personal pain or heartbreak to the plights of most of humanity. So unless you reckon that a mudslide is god's way of killing off people and rejuvenate the soil...
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I am talking about the possibility that every event, which you deem to be undesirable, having a valid purpose, lying beyond the comprehension of mankind's current level of knowledge and wisdom.

The newborn infant bottom smack analogy, demonstrates the potential existence of incomprehensible, yet necessary, suffering.

I have further highlighted the incongruences between your espoused life philosophy and life choices.

You are yet to satisfy me that you are operating according to anything with so much as the remotest semblance to logic, and yet despite your limited comprehension of your own psychology, you somehow presume to be able to ascribe psychotic behaviour to divinity!
 
Value Collector said:
Can you post some more details about this “Barry” guy, some before and after X-rays to prove he regrew discs,

But why aren’t devotees regrowing arms and legs?

I think this song sums up your claims the best

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Seriously VC. You aren't fooling anyone with this line. Both you and I know, all too well, that no amount of xrays is ever going to change your mind.

Even if a decapitee were to somehow resurrect right in front of your very own eyes, you'd still be playing the same tune, just at a more elevated pitch!

Although you chose not to make any personal disclosures in this regard, I do happen to know of one or more events that may serve to change your mind.

I know that you, currently, have no intention, whatsoever, of doing this, but it would be a good idea for you, to pray to that god, in whom you so strongly disbelieve, expressing your appreciation for the life and freedoms that you currently enjoy, and further expressing your desire not to have a belief altering event visited upon you.
 
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cynic said:
Seriously VC. You aren't fooling anyone with this line. Both you and I know, all too well, that no amount of xrays is ever going to change your mind.

Even if a decapitee were to somehow resurrect right in front of your very own eyes, you'd still be playing the same tune, just at a more elevated pitch!

Although you chose not to make any personal disclosures in this regard, I do happen to know of one or more events that may serve to change your mind.

I know that you, currently, have no intention, whatsoever, of doing this, but It would be a good idea for you, to pray to that god, in whom you so strongly disbelieve, expressing your appreciation for the life and freedoms that you currently enjoy, and further expressing your desire not to have a belief altering event visited upon you.
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The question isn’t about whether I would believe it or not, it’s about why haven’t such things happened.

Eg why is god healing cateracts and discs, and not things like regrowing limbs or beheaded people?

He only seems to focus on things that are generally by mid level health care insurance and seems to operate at levels equal to random chance.
 
Wysiwyg said:
I feel empathy for the true bloods.
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Wysiwyg, I don’t think you can, unless you’re a true blood.

Why are Australian Aboriginals part of the small minority of cultures to still not accept science to explain the world?

Why hang on to pagan or any modern religious beliefs to explain your existence?

The Aboroginal ‘dream time’ myths are a laughing stock to any modern human.
 
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