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Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

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Value Collector said:
If your god exists he is scared of me.

When some people lose their keys, they ask god to help them find them, then when they do find them they thank their god, thinking the god helped them find their keys.

So to test the system, I started threatening the god saying “ if you don’t give me my keys now I will punch you in the face “, and every time so far I have promptly found my keys, so I am basically bulling your god if it exists.

I have also done the opposite test, where I have asked the god if it does exist to hide my keys forever, again I have found my keys every time.

So he either doesn’t exist or is scared of me, I think he doesn’t exist.
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The funny thing is, VC, that everything about the demeanour of the anti-theist betrays their personal insecurity.
You say that if my god exists that she fears you!

A (comparatively) omniscient, omniptotent and eternal being, is somehow in fear of a mortal anti-theist?!!

My, my! Somebody does have delusions of grandeur!

There seems to me, to be a glaringly obvious hypocrisy in such an assertion!

It is the zealous anti-theist who is deeply afraid, terrified of the possibility that the theists' beliefs might be correct!

It is fears, such as these, founded on deep personal insecurities, that give rise to the zealous compulsion, to convince, or convert, as many people as possible, in the vain hope that surrounding oneself with agreement will somehow allay the fear.

You don't need to be afraid of God, VC!

In fact, fear, is probably your worst enemy in this matter, for the simple reason of fear's tendency to induce irrational thoughts.

Irrational thoughts can give rise to illogical decisions.

Illogical decisions can give rise to unsound behaviours.

Some unsound behaviours are unsafe.

Why would any sane person, choose to take such unnecessary risks?
 
cynic said:
The funny thing is, VC, that everything about the demeanour of the anti-theist betrays their personal insecurity.
You say that if my god exists that she fears you!

A (comparatively) omniscient, omniptotent and eternal being, is somehow in fear of a mortal anti-theist?!!

My, my! Somebody does have delusions of grandeur!

There seems to me, to be a glaringly obvious hypocrisy in such an assertion!

It is the zealous anti-theist who is deeply afraid, terrified of the possibility that the theists' beliefs might be correct!

It is fears, such as these, founded on deep personal insecurities, that give rise to the zealous compulsion, to convince, or convert, as many people as possible, in the vain hope that surrounding oneself with agreement will somehow allay the fear.

You don't need to be afraid of God, VC!

In fact, fear, is probably your worst enemy in this matter, for the simple reason of fear's tendency to induce irrational thoughts.

Irrational thoughts can give rise to illogical decisions.

Illogical decisions can give rise to unsound behaviours.

Some unsound behaviours are unsafe.

Why would any sane person, choose to take such unnecessary risks?
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hmmmh? Make sense, you do not.

yoda.jpg
 
cynic said:
The funny thing is, VC, that everything about the demeanour of the anti-theist betrays their personal insecurity.
You say that if my god exists that she fears you!

A (comparatively) omniscient, omniptotent and eternal being, is somehow in fear of a mortal anti-theist?!!

My, my! Somebody does have delusions of grandeur!

There seems to me, to be a glaringly obvious hypocrisy in such an assertion!

It is the zealous anti-theist who is deeply afraid, terrified of the possibility that the theists' beliefs might be correct!

It is fears, such as these, founded on deep personal insecurities, that give rise to the zealous compulsion, to convince, or convert, as many people as possible, in the vain hope that surrounding oneself with agreement will somehow allay the fear.

You don't need to be afraid of God, VC!

In fact, fear, is probably your worst enemy in this matter, for the simple reason of fear's tendency to induce irrational thoughts.

Irrational thoughts can give rise to illogical decisions.

Illogical decisions can give rise to unsound behaviours.

Some unsound behaviours are unsafe.

Why would any sane person, choose to take such unnecessary risks?
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What I am saying is your god doesn’t exist, and you shouldn’t be scared of it, so your threats that I should be worried about it are silly.

All that you said about the god changing my life if I questioned to much is no different to the threats made by Christians and Muslims, it’s quite weak really
 
SirRumpole said:
Or he just knows how childish you are and is waiting for you to grow up.
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Maybe, but I think believing in imaginary friends and being afraid of imagined things under the bed is more childish, lol. Who is the childish one, the person asking an imaginary friend to help find their keys, or the one trying show the imaginary doesn’t exist or doesn’t actually give a crap about what you say.

Cynic sounds like he is scared of the dark, and is saying the bogey man will get me if I to don’t be afraid of the darkness too.
 
cynic said:
If you cannot be honest with yourself about your true motives, why should anyone else take your assertions seriously?
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My only motive is to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.

you can’t stand the fact that your extraordinary claims might need evidence before people believe them, that’s your problem, not ours
 
Value Collector said:
Maybe, but I think believing in imaginary friends and being afraid of imagined things under the bed is more childish, lol. Who is the childish one, the person asking an imaginary friend to help find their keys, or the one trying show the imaginary doesn’t exist or doesn’t actually give a crap about what you say.

Cynic sounds like he is scared of the dark, and is saying the bogey man will get me if I to don’t be afraid of the darkness too.
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If the bogey man exists then, yes!
Why take unnecessary risks, VC?

Why are you so determined to assert the non existence of god?

What is it about the god concept, that makes you so determined to refute and ridicule theism and theists alike?

If your system of disbelief is so superior, why the insecurity? Why do you need to be constantly on the attack?
 
Value Collector said:
My only motive is to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.

you can’t stand the fact that your extraordinary claims might need evidence before people believe them, that’s your problem, not ours
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Really?!!

So how is it that you have come to convince yourself of this blatant falsehood that you are telling yourself? (i.e. about your "only motive")
 
Value Collector said:
My only motive is to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.

you can’t stand the fact that your extraordinary claims might need evidence before people believe them, that’s your problem, not ours
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Unfortunately belief in purpose is an innate teleological embrace that children rely on to explain things. It lays the foundation for religious overlay. Like Aboriginal base thinking, children tend towards application of objects rather focus on the object for objects sake and pronouns.

So it's an easy transition to agree with godstuff when application/purpose can't be applied to certain phenomena....e.g. how we came into existence.

This is why most people simply don't believe it when denialists try to use science to counter intuition. They are merely viewed as attention seekers and contrary.
 
luutzu said:
Plenty of people does not live the life God instructed, yet they have everything, and then some.

Soooo religiousness, piousness or whatever... it doesn't affect God's gifts or wrath. I mean, children with cancer? wtf? What crime could a kid possibly commit to get that sentence?

If believing in God makes a person happier, live better lives, then by all means. Just I think it's a bit much to blame people's mis/fortune on whether or not God likes them and their behaviour.

My grandma recently told my mum to go back to Church and be closer to God again. Saying that it's because she abandoned God from her life that her children don't listen to her anymore.

I mean, maybe I'm the exception but my siblings are great kids. Just sometimes there are wishes that cannot be followed and obeyed. That doesn't make them bad kids, just morally strong people who also know what's right for them.
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You've elaborated quite a bit on the common question “why is there suffering if there is a God?”. The New Testament has quite a few good answers. It also reveals some of God's plan in the grand scheme of things. You might like to take a look at this:

For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
(Romans, Paul)

There is also a verse which says that God is patiently waiting and putting up with evil so more people can be brought to repentance and saved through the Gospel.

I don't find Christianity on par with other religions or ancient dream-time stories. The morals that Jesus taught revolutionized the world too much, and they're too good. The right religion would have perfect morals. And anyone who practices them gets noticed and questioned, even in today's secular times.
 
Value Collector said:
Can you post some more details about this “Barry” guy, some before and after X-rays to prove he regrew discs,

But why aren’t devotees regrowing arms and legs?
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The story is mentioned in a book as well, which i realized recently I have a copy of (although when i got it I didn't pay too much attention to the story). I'll take a look at it and tell you more about it soon.
regards people regrowing limbs i don't know of any full grown limb stories, but i may have heard one body part growing or something (really vague though...not worth mentioning). however, there would probably be few people with e.g. one limb showing up (they are a small percentage) for one thing. And then out of those (or any group ) how many get cured and how many have the kind of faith (and character) needed? I would think though that there are other people in the community i know, not me though, who might know about other special miracles. in any case, 4 discs appearing from nowhere is still a pretty good miracle.
 
grah33 said:
You've elaborated quite a bit on the common question “why is there suffering if there is a God?”. The New Testament has quite a few good answers. It also reveals some of God's plan in the grand scheme of things. You might like to take a look at this:

For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
(Romans, Paul)

There is also a verse which says that God is patiently waiting and putting up with evil so more people can be brought to repentance and saved through the Gospel.

I don't find Christianity on par with other religions or ancient dream-time stories. The morals that Jesus taught revolutionized the world too much, and they're too good. The right religion would have perfect morals. And anyone who practices them gets noticed and questioned, even in today's secular times.
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yeahhhh, no. I don't buy it.

It'd be like a father who ran away from his responsibilities, neglectful to wife and child... then some guy come along saying that the Father is actually a very good man, He just wanted his wife and kid to suffer because, you know, suffering make them stronger. And if the suffering were to kill them, then it's even better because they'll be in a better place.

Wait, did you say that God puts up with suffering and evil so that humans can be saved if they follow the Gospel?

That's a bit convenient. Thank God there's a Bible to save people from their miseries, the Bible to protect them from other people's cruelties.

I don't know the Bible in any detail, just quotes here and there. But the morality and those good bits... I find the same in The Analect of Confucius, the Tao Te Ching, even Sun Tzu's the Art of War.

Confucianism is, or was, a state religion much like Christianity was/is among the latter Roman colonies since Constantine.

As Lao Tzu would say, there is no such thing as "perfect morals". The moment you define something as perfect, you automatically define its reverse. Who's to say that what is defined is the "right" Way?

So you'll find one religion, or one culture, laughing at the idiocy of another religion or culture. Why? Because they define "their" religion as perfect in all its essence... meaning that religion or culture that doesn't believe God created the world in six days, take a rest on the seventh then bugger off after Eve upsets him; not really buggering off but watching the children of Adam and Eve ruining his Creation so decided to flood them all the death.

But yea, we all want to believe in something. And if our belief doesn't harm anyone but give us peace and hope... why not. Just that it can annoy people if those believers start to force their belief on others or poke fun at whose Gods is bigger and better, then go to war to prove the point.
 
Grah33, in your experience have you encountered many people whom insist on all manner of evidence, despite the fact that their demeanour, clearly indicates that no amount of evidence, no matter how compelling, will ever truly satisfy them?

Have you noticed that, in this game which VC is inviting you to play, on his (undisclosed) terms, he hasn't even extended you the courtesy of informing you about the location of the goal posts?

What is to stop him reinventing the rules, i.e. coming up with new excuses every time you successfully hurdle his most recent objections?

How do you ever expect to score any points, in a game that is clearly designed,from the very outset, to ensure that you don't have a prayer of winning?

It's a good thing that you believe in miracles, because that is exactly what it would take, for you to score any points, in a game where the deck has been so heavily stacked against your favour!
 
cynic said:
Grah33, in your experience have you encountered many people whom insist on all manner of evidence, despite the fact that their demeanour, clearly indicates that no amount of evidence, no matter how compelling, will ever truly satisfy them?

Have you noticed that, in this game which VC is inviting you to play, on his (undisclosed) terms, he hasn't even extended you the courtesy of informing you about the location of the goal posts?

What is to stop him reinventing the rules, i.e. coming up with new excuses every time you successfully hurdle his most recent objections?

How do you ever expect to score any points, in a game that is clearly designed,from the very outset, to ensure that you don't have a prayer of winning?

It's a good thing that you believe in miracles, because that is exactly what it would take, for you to score any points, in a game where the deck has been so heavily stacked against your favour!
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Probably not. Quite a few posts were made, didn't follow every single one...

I think some of VC's atheistic views though aren't the best choice for an atheist to have. About the New Testament being immoral (that's a far cry for people who are very familiar with it), and Jesus not existing (another far cry) given his teachings changed the world so much. If I was an atheist I would drop these views.

I think I'm in a good position actually with this local miracle – the 4 discs... And I also know another guy who (should confirm details though) knew Barry before and after. I think Barry went to the same meetings. And this guy is a rational, sensible person, who wouldn't lie. Either it's real or the community is being cleverly deluded. But as a more distant observer I should obviously look into it myself to be totally sure (if I really needed to know). I can understand VC being naturally curious about this incident. For obvious reasons, it's a game changer.


With Luutzu though, I'm just getting endless philosophy about how the Christian God is cruel , and there not being much sense to it all, or something like that ... You get this at the pro debating level as well (e.g. Hitchens), and it never speaks to me, since the New Testament has endless wonder and beauty. And makes a lot of sense for many people. It certainly isn't shallow as touted by the leading atheists of the world.


In the early Church there was debating too. Here's what Paul had to say about it :

My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God's power.
(Paul, Corinthians)
It obviously made sense for them to believe.
 
grah33 said:
Probably not. Quite a few posts were made, didn't follow every single one...

I think some of VC's atheistic views though aren't the best choice for an atheist to have. About the New Testament being immoral (that's a far cry for people who are very familiar with it), and Jesus not existing (another far cry) given his teachings changed the world so much. If I was an atheist I would drop these views.

I think I'm in a good position actually with this local miracle – the 4 discs... And I also know another guy who (should confirm details though) knew Barry before and after. I think Barry went to the same meetings. And this guy is a rational, sensible person, who wouldn't lie. Either it's real or the community is being cleverly deluded. But as a more distant observer I should obviously look into it myself to be totally sure (if I really needed to know). I can understand VC being naturally curious about this incident. For obvious reasons, it's a game changer.


With Luutzu though, I'm just getting endless philosophy about how the Christian God is cruel , and there not being much sense to it all, or something like that ... You get this at the pro debating level as well (e.g. Hitchens), and it never speaks to me, since the New Testament has endless wonder and beauty. And makes a lot of sense for many people. It certainly isn't shallow as touted by the leading atheists of the world.


In the early Church there was debating too. Here's what Paul had to say about it :

My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God's power.
(Paul, Corinthians)
It obviously made sense for them to believe.
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All god/s/deities are cruel.
 
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