Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[Tisme]

More than just self healing.

Mustard seed sized mountain moving beliefs!

I like that attitude

 

[grah33]

Looked at the so called miracles at the time marks you gave. The explanation is simple. It's just the distortion that one normally gets when looking at the sun at sunset due to the low angle, particularly when just above a mountain range. The amount of "atmosphere" (which includes cloud cover) one is looking through at a low angle is considerably more than when looking directly up. Additionally, this amount increases dramatically over the last few degrees of the setting sun (or decreases dramatically over the first few degrees of the rising sun). Different density layers of the atmosphere causes magnification (+ and -) and cloud cover effects opacity. These are more pronounced at low angles (just as the virtual bend in a straight stick dipped in a river is more pronounced when looking from a side angle rather than directly above). So for the sun to appear dancing (which the video doesn't show) is simply the apparent size of the sun increasing and decreasing as its light passes through the extensive atmospheric density differences and cloud coverage differences when viewed at such low angles.

The fact that thousands witnessed it and believed it was a miracle is just testimony to the gullibility of simple poorly educated masses. Remember, these are the same people who fall for the miracle incision free surgery trickery rampant in the Philippines, where fraudsters appear to put their hands into the chests of people suffering ailments and pull out the bad parts without any incision being made.

You're sort of in different views at the same time here, but I should say that your reasoning isn't sound in the second paragraph at all imo. If they witnessed it, and I think mobile phone could record it just fine, than the best explanation for it is that it is a miracle, since they're looking for miracles/God. The youtuber is claiming that the crowd is seeing a divine wonder unfold, and that it has been recorded.

Whilst I happen to be very theistic in my views, and believe miracles to be an everpresent feature of existence, I do get somewhat concerned when readily explicable phenomena are hastily attributed to "supernatural" or "paranormal" causes.

Ha??? If it can be explained readily, then you should explain it to us. I don't mind looking silly in front of everyone.

 

[cynic]

...

Ha??? If it can be explained readily, then you should explain it to us. I don't mind looking silly in front of everyone.

The ways in which light typically behaves, whilst travelling through mediums of variant densities, is an important consideration. One which ought not be hastily dismissed in favour of miraculous claims.

That's not to say that this event cannot possibly be a miracle. I just prefer to see that care is taken to eliminate more plausible explanations first, before gravitating to any paranormal conclusions.

 

[bellenuit]

You're sort of in different views at the same time here, but I should say that your reasoning isn't sound in the second paragraph at all imo. If they witnessed it, and I think mobile phone could record it just fine, than the best explanation for it is that it is a miracle, since they're looking for miracles/God. The youtuber is claiming that the crowd is seeing a divine wonder unfold, and that it has been recorded.

The worst explanation is, and has always been, that it is a miracle. Time and time again so called miracles have been shown to be either fraudulent or a natural event that the believer misunderstood or simply was uneducated enough to comprehend.

The fact that thousands thought that they were watching a miracle unfold when there was a simpler explanation is that they WANT to believe it. This is what has happened in Ireland with the "moving statues", that the Catholic Hierarchy, though initially welcoming the new found faith of the people, eventually had to admit was all nonsense when it got out of hand. To this very day, I know people from Ireland (my country of birth) who would swear that the statues were moving. In this case, video evidence would be far more convincing as we are not talking about looking at an intense light like the sun at a low angle. No such video evidence exists.

Going back to the video, where you claim that the mobile phone record is just fine. Just look at any scene through your mobile phone camera where there is a bright light somewhere in the picture that gets variable obscured (say the sun shining though moving foliage). As the light intensity from the source varies, the phone reacts by applying filters to stabilise the overall lighting. But these take time to react. So when a partly obscured sun becomes fully exposed, the additional filtration needed due to the more intense light will not immediately be applied, resulting in an short explosion of light, exactly as your video recorded.

The other thing in the video that was more obvious and which could be easily shown to be the case if it were true is the rainbow rising from the statues head. We heard oohs and awes when that happened. Yet I could clearly see the rainbow just passed behind the head at that camera angle as you could clearly see it above the right shoulder (of the statue) too. But considering that there were hundreds of people recording, why is there not one image on the net or included as part of the video that shows the rainbow rising from the head at that same time when viewed from a different angle? That would be difficult to explain, yet no attempt was made to get such convincing evidence which would have been so easy to get.

If you want to believe what was shown then that's your prerogative. But I see nothing in that video other than a crowd of gullible people wanting to believe something that has a far simpler explanation. And with regards to the rainbow "miracle", deliberate avoidance of including what could be convincing information which was readily obtainable.

 

[grah33]

The ways in which light typically behaves, whilst travelling through mediums of variant densities, is an important consideration. One which ought not be hastily dismissed in favour of miraculous claims.

That's not to say that this event cannot possibly be a miracle. I just prefer to see that care is taken to eliminate more plausible explanations first, before gravitating to any paranormal conclusions.

The worst explanation is, and has always been, that it is a miracle. Time and time again so called miracles have been shown to be either fraudulent or a natural event that the believer misunderstood or simply was uneducated enough to comprehend.

The fact that thousands thought that they were watching a miracle unfold when there was a simpler explanation is that they WANT to believe it. This is what has happened in Ireland with the "moving statues", that the Catholic Hierarchy, though initially welcoming the new found faith of the people, eventually had to admit was all nonsense when it got out of hand. To this very day, I know people from Ireland (my country of birth) who would swear that the statues were moving. In this case, video evidence would be far more convincing as we are not talking about looking at an intense light like the sun at a low angle. No such video evidence exists.

Going back to the video, where you claim that the mobile phone record is just fine. Just look at any scene through your mobile phone camera where there is a bright light somewhere in the picture that gets variable obscured (say the sun shining though moving foliage). As the light intensity from the source varies, the phone reacts by applying filters to stabilise the overall lighting. But these take time to react. So when a partly obscured sun becomes fully exposed, the additional filtration needed due to the more intense light will not immediately be applied, resulting in an short explosion of light, exactly as your video recorded.

The other thing in the video that was more obvious and which could be easily shown to be the case if it were true is the rainbow rising from the statues head. We heard oohs and awes when that happened. Yet I could clearly see the rainbow just passed behind the head at that camera angle as you could clearly see it above the right shoulder (of the statue) too. But considering that there were hundreds of people recording, why is there not one image on the net or included as part of the video that shows the rainbow rising from the head at that same time when viewed from a different angle? That would be difficult to explain, yet no attempt was made to get such convincing evidence which would have been so easy to get.

If you want to believe what was shown then that's your prerogative. But I see nothing in that video other than a crowd of gullible people wanting to believe something that has a far simpler explanation. And with regards to the rainbow "miracle", deliberate avoidance of including what could be convincing information which was readily obtainable.

Regards statue miracles i'm not a big fan of them either . But don't be too discouraged by that. If God does work miracles, I'm sure there will always be plenty of dodgy ones that people come up with.

Regard the rainbow, I didn't really find that interesting. Best to stick to the portions I outlined (they gotta be watched from the start to the end of them too).

Then bell u think that it may have happened in front of the witnesses, as reported by the youtuber, but it's sky/light doing something unusual due to weather conditions, fooling them. Fair enough. And on top of that the camera isn't recording it properly, giving us the dramatic look we see. Key point for me is that you guys think that the witnesses may indeed have saw something , but it was the sky/light reacting , that's all. Ultimately though we weren't there and that's no doubt an important factor for us.

 

[Value Collector]

By all means set the bar as impossibly high as you like! Try as you might, your approach is unlikely to alleviate personal insecurity surrounding the unanswered mystery of existence.

For what it's worth, whilst I happen to believe very firmly in the existence of one (or more) higher beings, I do not automatically attribute "paranormal" phenomena to the actions of such beings.

My perspective on the Lourdes miracles is that, these phenomena are more likely related to some people believing so strongly, that they are able to transcend limitations imposed by societal conditioning.

Why would simply regrowing a persons limb be impossibly high for a god?

Surely that would be easy, and it would be a much clearer demonstration than all the other claimed medical miracles, which can often be put down to natural causes.

 

[Value Collector]

As has been mentioned, schools and hospitals started in monasteries.

Maybe, but they became a lot more effective when they dumped the religious stuff and focused on the scientific approach.

It’s like you are trying to condone nuclear weapons, because their research lead to nuclear medicine.

 

[cynic]

Why would simply regrowing a persons limb be impossibly high for a god?

Surely that would be easy, and it would be a much clearer demonstration than all the other claimed medical miracles, which can often be put down to natural causes.

According to that news article I posted, at least 69 of those claimed medical miracles remain unexplained.

Anyway, you have misunderstood the intended meaning of my post. I was most certainly not saying that the bar was impossibly high for a divine being.

Please do not even pretend that the regrowing of a limb would ever be sufficient to persuade you to alter your antitheistic viewpoint.

What sort of a god would jump through hoops in a vain effort to persuade somebody like you?

The god that I believe in, certainly isn't that stupid!

 

[luutzu]

According to that news article I posted, at least 69 of those claimed medical miracles remain unexplained.

Anyway, you have misunderstood the intended meaning of my post. I was most certainly not saying that the bar was impossibly high for a divine being.

Please do not even pretend that the regrowing of a limb would ever be sufficient to persuade you to alter your antitheistic viewpoint.

What sort of a god would jump through hoops in a vain effort to persuade somebody like you?

The god that I believe in, certainly isn't that stupid!

Maybe the god you believe in can just do it to relieve the suffering, no need to demo it to prove a point.

 

[luutzu]

Why would simply regrowing a persons limb be impossibly high for a god?

Surely that would be easy, and it would be a much clearer demonstration than all the other claimed medical miracles, which can often be put down to natural causes.

Or God can just make an appearance in the sky. Give a big speech. That's it.

"It's me, God. I don't like what you idiots have done to the place. I can see where this is going and I need you to stop it.

I'll give you five years. If the place isn't cleaned up. If there are still homeless and impoverished people while a handful of you have so much money you don't know what to do with after your mega mansions and super yachts... all while your leadership spend billions on war machines...

If I come back and all these aren't fixed, I'll do another flood. And Noah ain't going to return for this sequel.

Again, just so you don't think I'm kidding. When I return and don't like what I see, I'll crack open the Earth and march all the leadership and oligarchs straight to hell. Then I'll close it up. Clean house.

We clear? Good."

God doesn't know how to use his power at all.

 

[cynic]

Maybe the god you believe in can just do it to relieve the suffering, no need to demo it to prove a point.

Maybe the god I believe in, recognises the importance and value of the full spectrum of human experience!

 

[luutzu]

Maybe the god I believe in, recognises the importance and value of the full spectrum of human experience!

Then your god is a psychopath.

If you have the power, would you sit back and let your seriously ill child "experience" the full spectrum of human experience? Would any sane person?

 

[cynic]

Or God can just make an appearance in the sky. Give a big speech. That's it.

"It's me, God. I don't like what you idiots have done to the place. I can see where this is going and I need you to stop it.

I'll give you five years. If the place isn't cleaned up. If there are still homeless and impoverished people while a handful of you have so much money you don't know what to do with after your mega mansions and super yachts... all while your leadership spend billions on war machines...

If I come back and all these aren't fixed, I'll do another flood. And Noah ain't going to return for this sequel.

Again, just so you don't think I'm kidding. When I return and don't like what I see, I'll crack open the Earth and march all the leadership and oligarchs straight to hell. Then I'll close it up. Clean house.

We clear? Good."

God doesn't know how to use his power at all.

Why would you say that? What purpose would such uses of power, as you have outlined, achieve?

 

[cynic]

Then your god is a psychopath.

If you have the power, would you sit back and let your seriously ill child "experience" the full spectrum of human experience? Would any sane person?

Is there such a thing, as a sane person, in your purportedly godless existence?

 

[luutzu]

Why would you say that? What purpose would such uses of power, as you have outlined, achieve?

World peace.

After some 5,000 years since Noah and the place is still stuffed... A caring God might want to step in and intervene a bit. Do it openly. No more mysterious nonsense, no more "miracles" no one can explain.

What kind of a God would say... yea, do whatever you want. Steal, kill, rape, pillage, enslave and enjoy. Then on judgement day, I'll sort out who's good and who's naughty.

What the heck is that?

 

[luutzu]

Is there such a thing, as a sane person, in your purportedly godless existence?

I'm pretty sane. I'm sure there are plenty of others too. And in my world, there's no God.

Even a greedy GP would subscribe some pill to relieve a patient's suffering.. .all for a few bucks. God can end all the suffering with a wave of His hand... but nope. Let them experience the full spectrum, let them "choose".

He's worst than the Republicans and their "liberty" and "choice" bs.

 

[cynic]

World peace.

After some 5,000 years since Noah and the place is still stuffed... A caring God might want to step in and intervene a bit. Do it openly. No more mysterious nonsense, no more "miracles" no one can explain.

What kind of a God would say... yea, do whatever you want. Steal, kill, rape, pillage, enslave and enjoy. Then on judgement day, I'll sort out who's good and who's naughty.

What the heck is that?

In order to maintain the lofty state of world peace, mankind would surely first require the wisdom to achieve, maintain, and appreciate the value of such a high ideal.

What makes you so certain that the experiences and freedom of choice, with their attendant consequences, aren't an essential part of the attainment of such a harmonious state.

Why would any sane person expect to be able to automatically win the prize fight, without first enduring the requisite training?

What sort of god would do such a thing, as to raise a spoilt child, pandering to every whim, whilst denying that child the opportunity to earn rewards, and own behavioural consequences?

Perhaps an irresponsible god might do such things. Fortunately, the god I believe in, recognises the importance of things such as responsibility and experiential wisdom.

 

[luutzu]

In order to maintain the lofty state of world peace, mankind would surely first require the wisdom to achieve, maintain, and appreciate the value of such a high ideal.

What makes you so certain that the experiences and freedom of choice, with their attendant consequences, aren't an essential part of the attainment of such a harmonious state.

Why would any sane person expect to be able to automatically win the prize fight, without first enduring the requisite training?

What sort of god would do such a thing, as to raise a spoilt child, pandering to every whim, whilst denying that child the opportunity to earn rewards, and own behavioural consequences?

Perhaps an irresponsible god might do such things. Fortunately, the god I believe in, recognises the importance of things such as responsibility and experiential wisdom.

Cool.

I just hope your parenting style aren't the same as your belief in what a heavenly father ought to do.

Most parents, being irresponsible as you say, would not let their kids play with knives or nuclear weapons.

Most parents would teach their kids to share their toys, love each other. Not let 'em at it to toughen themselves up and the strongest win out.

But let's not spoilt most of humanity. We all must learn how to not be poor, learn to see what it's like to have a sick member of the family who must slowly suffer and die for lack of a few dollars for medicine.

If it kills you, it'll make you stronger. Trust me. - God.

 

[cynic]

I'm pretty sane. I'm sure there are plenty of others too. And in my world, there's no God.

Even a greedy GP would subscribe some pill to relieve a patient's suffering.. .all for a few bucks. God can end all the suffering with a wave of His hand... but nope. Let them experience the full spectrum, let them "choose".

He's worst than the Republicans and their "liberty" and "choice" bs.

Please explain to me why you believe suffering is wrong!

Please also explain to me why you chose to bring people into the world, knowing that they would at times, unavoidably, end up having to endure at least some suffering.

If the children you parented are only going to die at some future time, and forever after cease to be, where is the rationality in your choice?

In light of your decision, how can you claim to be sane?

 

[luutzu]

Please explain to me why you believe suffering is wrong!

Please also explain to me why you chose to bring people into the world, knowing that they would at times, unavoidably, end up having to endure at least some suffering.

If the children you parented are only going to die at some future time, and forever after cease to be, where is the rationality in your choice?

In light of your decision, how can you claim to be sane?

Why is suffering wrong? Seriously?

We all raise our children hoping that they wouldn't suffer. Hoping they can live healthy and productive lives etc. etc. Then at the end of the day, when they die after a long life, they would look back and see the good and great deeds they've done and be proud of it. So that's not suffering.

Now, if each of us parent have the power of God... or have lotsa money, we would use it to ease any suffering our children runs into. Wouldn't we?

So why is the almighty god exempt from that and still be seen as a good "father"?

Say a parent whose kids ran into trouble... should the parent just ignore it? Saying... I told you not to do so and so; you didn't listen and follow my commandment... then suffer the consequences. Learn to live with your mistake, or die of it... either way, it's a valuable lesson.

There are religious people who follow such logic... they tend to also be aholes. I've met a few of them in my life... all religious on the outside but inside it's just screwed up logic and excuses, being cruel to be kind bs.