Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[Value Collector]

Though Hitler certainly hates the Jews, Rumpole might be right that the Nazi's Holocaust against them were motivated by more than just religion though. Probably more political and economic, racial purity stuff than religious. But then most of the books are from Christian states so who knows.

Heard somewhere that the senior Nazi simply wanted Jewish property, wealth and as a convenient scapegoat. Once the Jewish minority got thoroughly scared want to get the heck out - it serves the Nazi's main objectives with no costs. Problem came up when other countries do not accept too many refugees - it being the Great Depression and not a lot of Western countries like Jews anyway... So came the Holocaust.

That's not to say the West is to blame or the Nazi won't build the camps - they just want to "cleanse" their state for the 1000 year Reich and Jews, the disabled, the sick, homosexuals and communists are just the one and the same impurity to the crazy idiots.

Anyway, religion is probably the most common and effective tool of state power; other cult and fanaticism have been use if it serves the same end - the Killing Fields, Communism, Capitalism...

I don't think you could honestly say that none of the wide spread mistrust and dislike of Jews in Germany was caused by religion, the Catholic Church spread antisemitism as policy for centuries, right up until the holocaust.

but again, I blame religion not just for the wars it creates directly, but also those that would have been avoided if the population was not divided down religious lines, it creates tribes where there shouldn't be tribes.

It's easy to hate people you have nothing to do with, people a lot of people hate gays, until they realise their grandson, cousin or friend is gay. it's easy to be racist until you realise that the new Asian guy at work is pretty cool, or the new Indian neighbours are really nice people or you brother gets engaged to black girl.

When societies define them selves by religions and don't mix, the religion ends up being a divide that is stronger than racial divides, look at any place with multigenerational conflict, I bet it is down religious lines, where kids grow up in neighbourhoods dominated by their religion, go to schools with their religion, marry into their religion and work with in their religion, it's very hard to fix those sorts of conflicts, especially if neither side want to negotiate because they have God on their side.

 

[luutzu]

I don't think you could honestly say that none of the wide spread mistrust and dislike of Jews in Germany was caused by religion, the Catholic Church spread antisemitism as policy for centuries, right up until the holocaust.

but again, I blame religion not just for the wars it creates directly, but also those that would have been avoided if the population was not divided down religious lines, it creates tribes where there shouldn't be tribes.

It's easy to hate people you have nothing to do with, people a lot of people hate gays, until they realise their grandson, cousin or friend is gay. it's easy to be racist until you realise that the new Asian guy at work is pretty cool, or the new Indian neighbours are really nice people or you brother gets engaged to black girl.

When societies define them selves by religions and don't mix, the religion ends up being a divide that is stronger than racial divides, look at any place with multigenerational conflict, I bet it is down religious lines, where kids grow up in neighbourhoods dominated by their religion, go to schools with their religion, marry into their religion and work with in their religion, it's very hard to fix those sorts of conflicts, especially if neither side want to negotiate because they have God on their side.

I'm sure a lot in the Christian kingdoms of Europe and a lot in the US and elsewhere doesn't like Jews very much. There are still certain segment in the Christian community that wouldn't mind paying for the Jewish state so that Rapture, Armageddon and the return of Christ can take place.

I'm with you about religion and all that.. but maybe it's not religion so much as religiosity - a blind faith, an unquestioned belief in the infallibility of your "religion", be that religion is priestly dogma or other ideologies and systems.

So while Religion, let's call it the Church, can be pointed to as the cause or the inspiration or even the active participant in atrocities and pitting one group against another etc., the Church is only dominant, and religion is at fault, but only because it's the most prominent, the most constant and easiest group to define and take hold of.

But other non-religious fanatacism, say Socialism or even Capitalism/the Market... blind faith in such ideologies have resulted in as much damage and as much atrocities when they go unchallenged.

We all know about Socialism/Communism under Stalin and Mao, and to a bit less Pol Pot and other totalitarian states... Millions died and no traditional God/Christ can be blame for those.

Or take unregulated Capitalism - slavery, child labour, environmental damages, wars and all that invisible hand and benevolent self-interests of the Market knowing best that leads to financial crisis after financial crisis that destroy lives and livelihood as well as sparking wars and revolutions.

So while Religion/The Church can be the biggest culprit because it's so established and so influential... the ultimate cause is more due to unquestioned beliefs and assumptions.

So a healthy sense of skepticism, a system that divide power and provide checks and balances like Australia's works well. Though it doesn't lead to dictatorship, oligarchic rule is just around the corner.

Maybe the world works best if there's an enlightened dictator that is all powerful lives forever... wait... haha

But yea, all these tribal and religious division isn't good for humanity. Just we can't get rid of it by peaceful means... the only way seems to be through war of conquest and the dominant culture/group get to have its culture as the standard.

Which brings to mind that movie where the First Emperor wholeheartedly told his lover that he will bring peace to the world that have seen continuous wars and destruction for over 500 years - his gf didn't realise then to achieve that all the other 7 states have to be destroyed and its culture extinguished.

 

[Value Collector]

I'm sure a lot in the Christian kingdoms of Europe and a lot in the US and elsewhere doesn't like Jews very much. There are still certain segment in the Christian community that wouldn't mind paying for the Jewish state so that Rapture, Armageddon and the return of Christ can take place.

I'm with you about religion and all that.. but maybe it's not religion so much as religiosity - a blind faith, an unquestioned belief in the infallibility of your "religion", be that religion is priestly dogma or other ideologies and systems.

So while Religion, let's call it the Church, can be pointed to as the cause or the inspiration or even the active participant in atrocities and pitting one group against another etc., the Church is only dominant, and religion is at fault, but only because it's the most prominent, the most constant and easiest group to define and take hold of.

But other non-religious fanatacism, say Socialism or even Capitalism/the Market... blind faith in such ideologies have resulted in as much damage and as much atrocities when they go unchallenged.

We all know about Socialism/Communism under Stalin and Mao, and to a bit less Pol Pot and other totalitarian states... Millions died and no traditional God/Christ can be blame for those.

Or take unregulated Capitalism - slavery, child labour, environmental damages, wars and all that invisible hand and benevolent self-interests of the Market knowing best that leads to financial crisis after financial crisis that destroy lives and livelihood as well as sparking wars and revolutions.

.

I have said many times the enemy is "faith"

If fact one of my favourite quotes is this.

"The enemy is not Muslims, Muslims are people. The enemy is not people. People are good. The enemy is not god, there is no god. The enemy is faith, love and respect all people, hate and destroy all faith.

As a sceptic, I honour doubt over faith, doubt leads to investigation, discussion, and makes you open to change, open to new ideas and to see things from the other side. Faith shuts all that down.

Religion is against doubt, the religious don't want discussion, they want unquestioned acceptance of their ideas, and at their core they wish to infect us with the same silly Ideas, they don't care about testing or evidence, because they already know they are right in their hearts.

This is what I fight against.

religion is also at the core of tribalism, tribalism certainly helped us in the past, but now it is a hindrance to our development as a global society, its a ball and chain slowing us down.

So while Religion/The Church can be the biggest culprit because it's so established and so influential... the ultimate cause is more due to unquestioned beliefs and assumptions.

I am against all sorts of superstitious nonsense, but a cricket players private belief about his lucky underpants is not going to hurt me or society, So mainly I focus on areas where the religious are trying to bring their crazy ideas into society in ways that take my freedoms away or hucksters trying to sell bogus healing medicines or psychics etc.

If a guy sat down and tried to explain his lucky under pants to me, I would probably explain how humans find patterns where none exist, and the way we count hits and not the misses, and random chance etc, but mostly I would let him believe what he likes, unfortunately organised religion is a lot more harmful.

But yea, all these tribal and religious division isn't good for humanity. Just we can't get rid of it by peaceful means...

I think we can, simply by being willing to question peoples faith, Instead of allowing them to get their way or make unchallenged public claims, always ask them to back up their claims.

I would love to see a day where every single time a religious person made a public claim they were ask "So why do you believe that" and if they gave a religious reason they where asked "and what makes you think that's true"

I would love it is they always had to present facts to support our argument (like we must do) rather than religious bable, Maybe then the constant humiliation instead of feigned respect would make society realise they are holding an empty sack, rather than revealed knowledge.

 

[SirRumpole]

All very well VC, but a lot of people reckon that finding religion has saved them from a life of crime or drug abuse, so the need to believe in some higher authority is still relevant, even though it can't be proven that a supernatural being exists.

The philosophy that 'death is the end of everything' for an individual is not very reassuring, so I reckon you are going to have a hard time trying to talk people out of their comfort zone.

 

[Value Collector]

All very well VC, but a lot of people reckon that finding religion has saved them from a life of crime or drug abuse, so the need to believe in some higher authority is still relevant, even though it can't be proven that a supernatural being exists.

The philosophy that 'death is the end of everything' for an individual is not very reassuring, so I reckon you are going to have a hard time trying to talk people out of their comfort zone.

If people really can't deal with reality, then I don't mind if they resort to some private fantasy/spirituality, I put that in the same box as the lucky underpants, it doesn't really affect me, but when it moves beyond that and starts to affect laws etc, that when rational thinking needs to be involved and the lucky underpants ignored.

I find stories of people saying religion changed their life to not be very impressive, generally this sort of change happens when the person hits rock bottom and is ready for change any way, they may then seek religion because they want to change and become a "good" person, and society generally believes religious people are "good" people, so when they want to become good, they become religious.

The fact is there is all sorts of things they could do to change their habits, most of it is just changing who you associate with.

 

[Value Collector]

​

The philosophy that 'death is the end of everything' for an individual is not very reassuring, so I reckon you are going to have a hard time trying to talk people out of their comfort zone.

It's reassuring for me, atleast I know a person that believes that probably won't want to fly a plane into a building, or waste their one and only life sitting in a jail cell.

A person who believes as I do also doesn't have to worry about a spook show starting when they die, and worry about whether it will be heaven or hell at the end of the tunnel.

And most importantly, a person that doesn't believe in any religion is free to think rationally, and make decisions based on facts, rather than dogma, we are free to eat any foods we like, free to accept people for who they are rather than shun them because they are gay etc.

 

[SirRumpole]

​

It's reassuring for me, atleast I know a person that believes that probably won't want to fly a plane into a building, or waste their one and only life sitting in a jail cell.

People like Timothy McVeigh weren't religious but still wreaked havoc. You can't blame religion for everything wrong with the world.

A person who believes as I do also doesn't have to worry about a spook show starting when they die, and worry about whether it will be heaven or hell at the end of the tunnel.

Maybe people who think as you do figure that as there is no accountability for what they do in this life then they might as well do whatever they like, even if it hurts other people, as long as they don't get caught.

And most importantly, a person that doesn't believe in any religion is free to think rationally, and make decisions based on facts, rather than dogma, we are free to eat any foods we like, free to accept people for who they are rather than shun them because they are gay etc.

Sure, I'm all in favour of freedom from religion as well as of it, and it should be called out when it's irrational, but your bigotry towards religion has blinded you to the fact that religion has prompted the formation of charities and other good works for which you give religion no credit at all.

 

[Tink]

VC has his own religion -- a militant atheist -- trying to push his ideology on us.

No right and wrong, no conscience, no standards, no morals.

 

[Tisme]

VC has his own religion -- a militant atheist -- trying to push his ideology on us.

No right and wrong, no conscience, no standards, no morals.

You think the Devil's greatest trick was persuading the world he and God didn't exist?

 

[Value Collector]

People like Timothy McVeigh weren't religious but still wreaked havoc. You can't blame religion for everything wrong with the world.



Maybe people who think as you do figure that as there is no accountability for what they do in this life then they might as well do whatever they like, even if it hurts other people, as long as they don't get caught.



Sure, I'm all in favour of freedom from religion as well as of it, and it should be called out when it's irrational, but your bigotry towards religion has blinded you to the fact that religion has prompted the formation of charities and other good works for which you give religion no credit at all.

I am not trying to blame religion for everything, just the large amount of negative stuff it does cause.

There is plenty of accountability in the real world, you don't need to threaten people with myths.

I have never said that religion doesn't do any good, but I have asked people to name one good outcome of religion does that can not be achived in secular ways, and no body has every been able to show me anything.

Religion is like a pill that might prevent headaches in some cases, but it also causes cancer in some cases, and since we have a whole bunch of other head ache pills that don't cause cancer we should avoid the religion pill

 

[Value Collector]

No right and wrong, no conscience, no standards, no morals.

tink,

I believe in right and wrong, I just believe when we try establish what is right and wrong that we should use rational thought and logic not a dusty on book written by fanatics.

In reality you believe this to, hence why you do not agree with a lot of the biblical moral teachings, the bible just holds you back on the edge of development, so you are a bit behind me. In 30 years you will support gay marriage and wonder what all the fuss was

 

[Value Collector]

You think the Devil's greatest trick was persuading the world he and God didn't exist?

Is God more powerful than the devil?

if God wanted me to believe, he would know exactly what to do to convince me. The fact that I am unconvinced means he either doesn't care what I believe, or he doesn't exist

 

[SirRumpole]

There is plenty of accountability in the real world, you don't need to threaten people with myths.

So why are the gaols full ?

 

[luutzu]

I have said many times the enemy is "faith"

If fact one of my favourite quotes is this.

"The enemy is not Muslims, Muslims are people. The enemy is not people. People are good. The enemy is not god, there is no god. The enemy is faith, love and respect all people, hate and destroy all faith.

As a sceptic, I honour doubt over faith, doubt leads to investigation, discussion, and makes you open to change, open to new ideas and to see things from the other side. Faith shuts all that down.

Religion is against doubt, the religious don't want discussion, they want unquestioned acceptance of their ideas, and at their core they wish to infect us with the same silly Ideas, they don't care about testing or evidence, because they already know they are right in their hearts.

This is what I fight against.

religion is also at the core of tribalism, tribalism certainly helped us in the past, but now it is a hindrance to our development as a global society, its a ball and chain slowing us down.



I am against all sorts of superstitious nonsense, but a cricket players private belief about his lucky underpants is not going to hurt me or society, So mainly I focus on areas where the religious are trying to bring their crazy ideas into society in ways that take my freedoms away or hucksters trying to sell bogus healing medicines or psychics etc.

If a guy sat down and tried to explain his lucky under pants to me, I would probably explain how humans find patterns where none exist, and the way we count hits and not the misses, and random chance etc, but mostly I would let him believe what he likes, unfortunately organised religion is a lot more harmful.




I think we can, simply by being willing to question peoples faith, Instead of allowing them to get their way or make unchallenged public claims, always ask them to back up their claims.

I would love to see a day where every single time a religious person made a public claim they were ask "So why do you believe that" and if they gave a religious reason they where asked "and what makes you think that's true"

I would love it is they always had to present facts to support our argument (like we must do) rather than religious bable, Maybe then the constant humiliation instead of feigned respect would make society realise they are holding an empty sack, rather than revealed knowledge.

Can't argue with that.

So what's a smart and somewhat liberal guy like you voting Liberal all this time? haha

 

[luutzu]

People like Timothy McVeigh weren't religious but still wreaked havoc. You can't blame religion for everything wrong with the world.



Maybe people who think as you do figure that as there is no accountability for what they do in this life then they might as well do whatever they like, even if it hurts other people, as long as they don't get caught.



Sure, I'm all in favour of freedom from religion as well as of it, and it should be called out when it's irrational, but your bigotry towards religion has blinded you to the fact that religion has prompted the formation of charities and other good works for which you give religion no credit at all.

Don't think VC is bigoted against religion or religious people. Didn't he defend people's right to practice their religious belief (Halal food) as long as such beliefs do not harm society?

I think bigotry is when someone dislike/hate something for no good reason than simply not liking it. I personally don't think it's bigotry if you debate the issue and reason why it's so and so.

I mean, one of religious' people's thesis is that religion give you morality and standards and all that good stuff that make a society good. VC has, and I agree with him, that a person can obtain morality and good judgment without religion - and I'd go further and say that a person is more "moral" and just without religion frame and distort their worldview, holding them and their thinking back.


People always grasp at this and that to justify their actions, or have justification knock into them... But if they think for themselves and do not put faith in any higher authority, do not justify the means for the "greater" end... I think you'll find people generally do and act in a more humane manner.

 

[luutzu]

VC has his own religion -- a militant atheist -- trying to push his ideology on us.

No right and wrong, no conscience, no standards, no morals.

There's plenty of right from wrong... just you don't compare right or wrong against some old book that, among other things, talk about stoning women or parting the red sea or eternal damnation. Eternity is a long time to punish somebody.

 

[luutzu]

So why are the gaols full ?

Because the system and the law is unjust.

A lecture by Chris Hedges talks about how in the US, some 90% of prisoners are there for non-violent crimes.

Most are in prison because they're poor and cannot afford legal defense for the literal stacks of charges that's put in front of them - so they plead a deal and have a couple or more remove and serves "lesser" sentences or risk going all the way with no real representation and end up guilt to all the charges.

He talks about how in a few American cities, some 1/3 of their revenue comes from fines. Fine for not mowing your lawn, for standing too long on a street corner, for parking and tickets... and when the poor can't afford to pay those fines there's a warrant for their arrest; because they're too poor and their car isn't serviced, if they get pulled over by the cops they'd want to run because of all the tickets and warrant for unpaid fines... then they're either shot or caught and put in prison.

 

[bellenuit]

VC has his own religion -- a militant atheist -- trying to push his ideology on us.

No right and wrong, no conscience, no standards, no morals.

That's being quite personal isn't it?

How silly with your "militant atheist". Do you regard argument as militancy. As for your other comment, it is utterly unwarranted based on the posts from him I have read. Because you don't agree with what he says, doesn't mean he lacks morality, a conscience a sense of right or wrong.

 

[SirRumpole]

tink,

I believe in right and wrong, I just believe when we try establish what is right and wrong that we should use rational thought and logic not a dusty on book written by fanatics.

I have no doubt you have a sense of right and wrong, most people do, the question is how did you get it ?

Maybe from the laws that were handed down from generation to generation. It's worth noting that these laws have a religious foundation. I don't think you can easily separate the fact that the First Commandment is that we shall not kill, and our society says that murder is against the Law. Same with laws against theft etc.

You cannot deny the part religion has played in formulating our moral code, which has enabled us to rise above the "power belongs to the most powerful" ethos of thugs like Alexander the "Great" and Genghis Khan et al.

 

[Value Collector]

I have no doubt you have a sense of right and wrong, most people do, the question is how did you get it ?

Maybe from the laws that were handed down from generation to generation. It's worth noting that these laws have a religious foundation. I don't think you can easily separate the fact that the First Commandment is that we shall not kill, and our society says that murder is against the Law. Same with laws against theft etc.

You cannot deny the part religion has played in formulating our moral code, which has enabled us to rise above the "power belongs to the most powerful" ethos of thugs like Alexander the "Great" and Genghis Khan et al.

The first commandment is not thy shalt not kill,

The first commandment is "I am the lord your God, thy shalt not put any Gods before me"

We have been through this before, cultures the world over outlawed killing members of their tribe, it's not just a biblical thing, it's a common sense thing, we work together better and have better lives when we are not killing each other, same with stealing.

in fact you need a sense of right and wrong before you read the bible, other wise how do you go about deciding which parts to ignore?

The bible didn't help us rise above Alexander the Great, the bible commands genocide, and the bible was used by the Catholic Church to justify the killing of other religions and those who were non believers.

If you want to say our sense of right and wrong comes from the bible, then why are we not ok with slavery? Why are we not ok with stoning gays to death? Why are we not stoning people who have sex before marriage?

The reason is because we have a sense of right and wrong that doesn't rely on the bible.