Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[luutzu]

I suggest it would be more constructive to direct your attention to what ISIS et al are doing now rather than what the Catholic church did centuries ago.

What the Catholic church may be doing now is like picking flowers compared to the mass executions, beheadings and sex slavery perpetrated by Muslims in THE NAME of their religion.

So why do we hear so little from you about that ?

Won't be that constructive - ISIS won't listen, will probably remove his head, and if he managed to avoid that Abbott will remove his citizenship upon his return

I won't say what the Church has and is doing is akin to picking flowers.
Take its stance against condoms... all Christian-based charities and NGOs cannot distribute condoms or preach contraception, leading to millions of death from AIDS/STDs etc.; then its stance against gay marriage - millions if not hundreds of millions of homosexuals around the world do not have equal rights as other citizens does.

Then there's the daily collection of donations with most going to build cathedrals and investment trusts while the poor can bugger off to a couple of shelters and charitable soup kitchens here and there.

Then there's its influence on the majority of the people, with ideas like this life is only to suffer or what not, the real life and real paradise awaits us (if you do as the Church saids)... There's some positive to that for some people in some circumstances, I guess... but overall I think a person would be happier, more motivated to get out of their current difficulties, more motivated to "change the world" for the better and live their life fuller if they're more rational and question everything, if they realise that this life is the only one they'll get.

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[luutzu]

It seems you don't know much about our country, do you?

Maybe you should take more interest in our history, and how this country was set up.

Some change are good, no?

 

[Tisme]

I wonder how this fellow would feel, now that the Catholicism of the public service and parliament is almost complete:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/20633631?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Back in the early 1800s the RC convicts were forced into Anglican Evangelical services and could not carry on with their hocus pocus rites. This is because they tried to hijack the Protestant Reformation only a few years earlier in the 16th century and around the same time played up about the English making Ireland their own back yard.

Somebody obviously took the foot of the brake and look at the mess we are in with Micks running the show on both sides of the argument.

 

[Value Collector]

Won't be that constructive - ISIS won't listen, will probably remove his head,
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Yes, it's a bit late for rational discussion with those guys, I think JDAM's are the only answer there.

If we truly want to end religious violence, the only way to do it is to stop acting like it's a good thing to lie to children and fill them up with superstitions, and we have to stop feigning respect for adults who claim to be religious, admissions of devout religiosity should be met with laughter not respect.

 

[Value Collector]

I did not think that it would be personality to be honest. To a large degree personality must be very specific to the body. I thought that we as persons at our fundamental could be like some pure energy form of our selves. An energy that can't be destroyed but is transferred.

You are your personality, which is linked to functions of the brain. everything else is just a meat suit, used as a life support system for your brain.

Our bodies are made of energy and matter that can not be destroyed, when our brain and bodies stop functioning, that matter and energy will just be distributed back into the environment through the living organisms that eat us as we decompose.

But this in no way suggest that we as persons continue to exist, in the same way that a deck of cards will no longer exist after you burn it, Yes, all the energy and matter contained in the deck of cards still exist, the energy and matter are released as heat, light, smoke and ash, but to say that some how the cards still exist as a deck of cards in spirit is silly, it's just as silly to think we will exist after our brains have been destroyed by fire or bacteria.

I am interested to see what happens one day when young Man A looses his head donating his body to science but ten years earlier a old Man B who lost his torso and donated his head to science. When the surgeons sew the body of A to the head of B does man B come back to life as a young man.

I would think if that were possible, you would have an old mans brain and personality sitting on a young mans body, the young mans personality and sense of self would be destroyed and the old mans personality and sense of self would be retained.

If that's the case we probably have invented eternal life right? You would not expect the brain of man b to age in a young body

probably not, his brain would probably continue to age. sure he would have a younger body, so might avoid death caused by heart attack or any other weakness in an older body, but he would still be susceptible to health effects caused by an aging brain.

 

[SirRumpole]

You are your personality, which is linked to functions of the brain. everything else is just a meat suit, used as a life support system for your brain.

Our bodies are made of energy and matter that can not be destroyed, when our brain and bodies stop functioning, that matter and energy will just be distributed back into the environment through the living organisms that eat us as we decompose.

But this in no way suggest that we as persons continue to exist, in the same way that a deck of cards will no longer exist after you burn it, Yes, all the energy and matter contained in the deck of cards still exist, the energy and matter are released as heat, light, smoke and ash, but to say that some how the cards still exist as a deck of cards in spirit is silly, it's just as silly to think we will exist after our brains have been destroyed by fire or bacteria.




I would think if that were possible, you would have an old mans brain and personality sitting on a young mans body, the young mans personality and sense of self would be destroyed and the old mans personality and sense of self would be retained.



probably not, his brain would probably continue to age. sure he would have a younger body, so might avoid death caused by heart attack or any other weakness in an older body, but he would still be susceptible to health effects caused by an aging brain.

I tend to think of a "soul" if it exists, as being equivalent to "software", a set of instructions that control the hardware of the brain. Faulty hardware can cause the overall system to malfunction, like removing memory chips from a PC, but the software has not altered and it remains separate and independent from the hardware ; ie it could be run on another piece of hardware, eg another body through reincarnation.

The subconscious mind is known to exist. It contains memories long forgotten by our conscious minds. Perhaps the subconscious is a background process of our underlying software.

 

[Value Collector]

I tend to think of a "soul" if it exists, as being equivalent to "software", a set of instructions that control the hardware of the brain. Faulty hardware can cause the overall system to malfunction, like removing memory chips from a PC, but the software has not altered and it remains separate and independent from the hardware ; ie it could be run on another piece of hardware, eg another body through reincarnation.

The subconscious mind is known to exist. It contains memories long forgotten by our conscious minds. Perhaps the subconscious is a background process of our underlying software.

That's what you would call a hypothesis, and like all hypothesis, it needs to be proven before it can be taken seriously.

either way though, once a computer suffers a fatal flaw and the hardware dies, the software is lost, it ceases to operate and for all intents and purposes it ceases to exist.

if you switched off a computer and sat it in the bush, its software wouldn't run and the computer would just decompose to nothingness, it software wouldn't run again.

If someone came and took a copy of the software and installed it on a new device, it would be a copy, not the same being. But there is no evidence for anything like that happening in living organisms.

eg. If I could download a copy of Sir rumpole, and up load it into a new body, it would be a copy of you, the being I have created isn't actually you, you are still you.

 

[SirRumpole]

That's what you would call a hypothesis, and like all hypothesis, it needs to be proven before it can be taken seriously.

Unlike your own hypothesis which you can't prove either.

either way though, once a computer suffers a fatal flaw and the hardware dies, the software is lost, it ceases to operate and for all intents and purposes it ceases to exist.

Software does not cease to exist once hardware dies. A computer of mine died a while ago, but I can still load the software onto another machine.

if you switched off a computer and sat it in the bush, its software wouldn't run and the computer would just decompose to nothingness, it software wouldn't run again.

Patently false as stated above

If someone came and took a copy of the software and installed it on a new device, it would be a copy, not the same being. But there is no evidence for anything like that happening in living organisms.

The software runs exactly the same on other hardware, so being a copy is meaningless.

eg. If I could download a copy of Sir rumpole, and up load it into a new body, it would be a copy of you, the being I have created isn't actually you, you are still you.

The definition of what actually defines "you" or "me" is subject to debate. If it's shown that human software actually exists then that must be the definition of a "person", not the hardware it operates on.

 

[Value Collector]

Unlike your own hypothesis which you can't prove either.



.

Which Hypothesis?

Software does not cease to exist once hardware dies. A computer of mine died a while ago, but I can still load the software onto another machine.

you can load a copy of the software, the original computer (hardware/software combo) is still going to be dead.

Making copies of something is not the same as bringing something back to life.

Patently false as stated above

what is false about it, a computer loaded with software that can't run anymore, it dead, it will decompose to nothingness, cease to exist.

The software runs exactly the same on other hardware, so being a copy is meaningless.

Being a copy is not meaningless.

If I downloaded a copy of your mind to a new body, you would still exist in your old body and a copy would exist in the new body, if I then shot you in the head, I have killed you, the fact that a copy remains is meaningless.

I could make 10 copies, none of them are you, and the moment I kill your brain and your "software" ceases running, you cease to exist.

 

[SirRumpole]

Which Hypothesis?

That humans have no soul (software) which continues after the hardware dies.

Making copies of something is not the same as bringing something back to life.

You are the one who introduced copies. I'm saying that software is transferable between hardware.

what is false about it, a computer loaded with software that can't run anymore, it dead, it will decompose to nothingness, cease to exist.

The hardware rusts, but the machine instructions are recoverable from backup.

Being a copy is not meaningless.

If I downloaded a copy of your mind to a new body, you would still exist and a copy would exist, if I then shot you in the head, I have killed you, the fact that a copy remains is meaningless.

I could make 10 copies, none of them are you, and the moment I kill your brain and your "software" ceases running, you cease to exist.

No, doesn't make sense in the context of human software. That is unique, it's simply transferable between hardware, but can only be on one hardware device at a time (that's the license condition ).

 

[Value Collector]

The definition of what actually defines "you" or "me" is subject to debate. If it's shown that human software actually exists then that must be the definition of a "person", not the hardware it operates on.

In reality the closet thing that actually exists to this "software" is our DNA.

I think the reality of DNA formation and how it grows in complexity and is passed from generation to generation, and improved on by natural selection is a much more interesting story than any fanciful story about life after death and reincarnation.

If there is some part of us that lives on after we die, it is not the individual person, it's the Gene's that we passed on to our offspring, but that's like copying software, nothing about the individual is immortal, individuals live and they die, our genes get replicated, but that's not you, that's your children.

even Identical Twins who share the same DNA, and were formed from the same egg that split in two pieces and grew are not the same person.

 

[SirRumpole]

In reality the closet thing that actually exists to this "software" is our DNA.

I think the reality of DNA formation and how it grows in complexity and is passed from generation to generation, and improved on by natural selection is a much more interesting story than any fanciful story about life after death and reincarnation.

If there is some part of us that lives on after we die, it is not the individual person, it's the Gene's that we passed on to our offspring, but that's like copying software, nothing about the individual is immortal, individuals live and they die, our genes get replicated, but that's not you, that's your children.

even Identical Twins who share the same DNA, and were formed from the same egg that split in two pieces and grew are not the same person.

I don't think so. DNA is part of the hardware, like generations of Intel processors that get improved over time.

That is a completely different thing to software.

 

[Value Collector]

That humans have no soul (software) which continues after the hardware dies.



).

My position is that we have no good reason to believe a soul exists, so I don't believe one exists, its not up to me to disprove a negative, any more than I would expect you to have to disprove fairies exist, if you said you don't believe in fairies, it's up to the people who believe in fairies and souls to prove their position, not for the benefit of me, but to themselves.

You are the one who introduced copies. I'm saying that software is transferable between hardware.

isn't the only way to transfer software between hardware to make a copy of it?

The hardware rusts, but the machine instructions are recoverable from backup.

yes, because the data is a physical imprinting on a physical piece of hardware which can be copied, at least until that physical hard drive or brain decays to the point the data is lost.

Back ups are a copy of an original, they may even include slight flaws or differences that make them unique.

No, doesn't make sense in the context of human software. That is unique, it's simply transferable between hardware, but can only be on one hardware device at a time (that's the license condition

That sounds like special pleading.

You (your mind) are a direct result of your brain chemistry, all the data in your brain is stored physically in the brain, the billions of neurons and trillions of synapses are physical things that together along with other chemistry operate our consciousness, messing up some of that changes you, so it's all physical stuff happening.

any attempt to rebuild that in some way will create a new being, that as I pointed out is not you, and is bound to have some differences making it unique.

 

[Value Collector]

I don't think so. DNA is part of the hardware, like generations of Intel processors that get improved over time.

That is a completely different thing to software.

Well give me an example of this software then.

Dna is the closet thing to software code we have in our body.
It's what tells our brain how to grow, it puts all the neurons and synapse together.

 

[Value Collector]

DNA explained.

It's chemistry, physical chemistry. no ghosts or gouls needed.

 

[SirRumpole]

Well give me an example of this software then.

No one has explained why different people have different ideas, or even how an idea originates. If it all comes out of brain chemistry then we should be able to create ideas by altering parts of the brain. We can change moods that way, but how do we create an idea for a new spacecraft propulsion system by altering brain chemistry ?

 

[Value Collector]

No one has explained why different people have different ideas, or even how an idea originates.

I would think it's because we all have different experiences, and different amounts of knowledge.

If it all comes out of brain chemistry then we should be able to create ideas by altering parts of the brain.

Who says we can't? I mean we can make a person with no feet get itchy feet by stimulating parts of the brain. Certain things are hard wired instincts, that the individual might think are ideas.

We can change moods that way, but how do we create an idea for a new spacecraft propulsion system by altering brain chemistry

Those sorts of things are never created all at once in one idea, they would be the result of countless ideas based on the individuals (and those before him) knowledge and experience, and I system of trial and error, constant learning throughout the process.

But yes the human brain is capable of thought and learning, each time you learn something the brain there are physical changes in the brain.

Thoughts are an emergent property of a physical brain, a thought is actually a physical thing that can be measured, we can observe brain function using certain medical equipment.

 

[bellenuit]

 

[luutzu]

View attachment 63216

But Allah and God is the same "Being" - just different name due to different languages.

Yea... God wouldn't like me either.

 

[Tisme]

Well give me an example of this software then.

Dna is the closet thing to software code we have in our body.
It's what tells our brain how to grow, it puts all the neurons and synapse together.

I think you mean kernal and its firmware. Software runs outside the firmware/hardware environment.