Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[SirRumpole]

The bible didn't help us rise above Alexander the Great, the bible commands genocide, and the bible was used by the Catholic Church to justify the killing of other religions and those who were non believers.

Just another example of your one sided bigoted attitude. The Bible is a large and diverse document and yet you insist on cherry picking the bits that suit your own argument and leaving out the rest. The Bible certainly has some trash in it, but has other bits that can be used to put people on the right track. It's just a pity that your one sideness (dare I say arrogance) does not allow you to admit that.

 

[Value Collector]

Just another example of your one sided bigoted attitude. The Bible is a large and diverse document and yet you insist on cherry picking the bits that suit your own argument and leaving out the rest. The Bible certainly has some trash in it, but has other bits that can be used to put people on the right track. It's just a pity that your one sideness (dare I say arrogance) does not allow you to admit that.

I am not cherry picking, you did. You pick out a good commandment and say "there you go see morality comes from this" but you ignore the other terrible commandments.

You said the bible is where we get right and wrong from, and cherry picked one commandment, "thy shalt not kill"

I simply pointed out that if that's the case, why don't people follow all the other commandments that command horrible things.

the reason is simple, we don't get our morality from the bible, we get it from our empathy, which is an evolved trait in a social species.

If we didn't have a moral structure that was separate from religion, we would all be acting like Isis.

in fact the catholic used to act like Isis, so your claim that it all stopped after Alexander the Great is just historically false.

 

[Tink]

What a load of rubbish, VC.
You have no idea what Christianity contributed to our civilization.

It is easy for you to say now that it is all set up.

Bellenuit, that isn't the first time I have brought up Atheism being another religion, we have an Atheist Convention in Melbourne that they gather together spreading the news.
If that isn't like a religion, what is?

Of course you get good and bad in all, but I was just pointing out to VC, the side effects of his religion.

 

[SirRumpole]

I am not cherry picking, you did. You pick out a good commandment and say "there you go see morality comes from this" but you ignore the other terrible commandments.

So, there is nothing good in the Bible at all according to you ?

 

[bellenuit]

Bellenuit, that isn't the first time I have brought up Atheism being another religion, we have an Atheist Convention in Melbourne that they gather together spreading the news.

That is not what I took you to task for. You implied that VC had "No right and wrong, no conscience, no standards, no morals." That was completely groundless and could not be construed from what he has expressed on this forum.

 

[Tink]

VC has his own religion -- a militant atheist -- trying to push his ideology on us.

No right and wrong, no conscience, no standards, no morals.

I stated in the Gay Marriage thread, I don't agree with it.

Others have picked up what I meant.

 

[luutzu]

What a load of rubbish, VC.
You have no idea what Christianity contributed to our civilization.

It is easy for you to say now that it is all set up.

Bellenuit, that isn't the first time I have brought up Atheism being another religion, we have an Atheist Convention in Melbourne that they gather together spreading the news.
If that isn't like a religion, what is?

Of course you get good and bad in all, but I was just pointing out to VC, the side effects of his religion.

Actually Christianity held Western civilisation back for about 1,000 years. Made Europe so poor and so backward that Genghis Khan and his generals saw no benefit invading it - they only plan to invade after they took all the more civilised and richer kingdoms of Asia, India and the Middle East. Alright, so maybe that's also a contribution concerning the Mongolian hordes.

European civilisation only starts to lighten up and get out of the Dark Ages after the "rebirth" and rediscovery of ancient/classical Greek/Roman/Arabic philosophy and sciences in the 15th century.

And a good example of the Church still trying to hold that scientific progress back was the banning of scientific works by Galileo and a scientific treatise on political discourse of Machiavelli - banning something the Chinese Han Fei Tzu have done with equal ability some 1600 years before. Don't think the Church like Columbus' plan to go to India by crossing the ocean to the West though - implying that the Earth is not flat?

Nice cathedrals though.

 

[luutzu]

So, there is nothing good in the Bible at all according to you ?

The parting of the Red Sea is pretty good

I think you'd have to take the entire book and its teachings to consider whether it's a moral book or not overall.

Reminds me a George Carlin joke about executing a guy through lethal injection but having to swipe his skin before injecting the poison. Don't want the dead guy to get an infection... that's nice and good but you know, he end up dead in the end.

 

[luutzu]

VC has his own religion -- a militant atheist -- trying to push his ideology on us.

No right and wrong, no conscience, no standards, no morals.

I stated in the Gay Marriage thread, I don't agree with it.

Others have picked up what I meant.

Atheists don't push their ideology on anyone. I think we're all just try to have an "intellectual" discussion on religion and things. So of course people will try to push their case, but that is very different from oppressing or forcing religious people or any people to accept and live with it - or else!

Say an Atheist doesn't like homosexuals... that atheist would tell gay people to get a room and do what they do, or just look away or walk away. If a religious nut doesn't like homosexuals... six of them got stab in a public parade... and the nicer ones make laws that imprison or force castration or just plain old discrimination against them.


How could anyone think a book that could be use to discriminate and even justify murder and genocide a moral book? If not justifiable, then explain it away as "God's plan".

 

[Value Collector]

So, there is nothing good in the Bible at all according to you ?

I have never said there is nothing good in the bible, I have simply disagreed when people say it is the source of all that is good.

Obviously a rule against murder is good, but saying none of us would have any concept that murder is bad without the bible is false.

as I said, our morals come from empathy, you don't need a religion to be moral, you just need empathy, the fact that various religions picked up on some of the morals and included them in their teachings does not mean they invented the concepts.

I am not trying to be silly when I say things like "stoning gays to death is commanded in the bible, why don't you think that is good"

I am asking you that question to point out that your morals that tell you that would be a bad thing to do are obviously not coming from the bible, because the bible instructs you to do that. So you are working off a moral code that is independent of the bible teachings, so saying you can't be good without the bible is plain silly.

 

[Value Collector]

VC has his own religion -- a militant atheist -- trying to push his ideology on us.

No right and wrong, no conscience, no standards, no morals.

I stated in the Gay Marriage thread, I don't agree with it.

Others have picked up what I meant.

tink,

I am more moral than you god, and your church leaders.

If I saw a man raping a little girl, I would do my best to stop it and have him jailed, if your God exists he sits by and watches and your church leaders cover it up and hide the rapists.

 

[Tink]

VC, atheism has now become a religion and as you stand up for yours -- I stand up for my freedom of speech and freedom of conscience.

Talking about leaders, why isn't yours, Richard Dawkins, dealing with what is going on under his nose in the UK, now that the pedophiles are coming out of the closet to lower the age limit, since there is no right and wrong there, as we saw on 60 mins.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=29542&page=10&p=876473&viewfull=1#post876473

Luutzu, even your left leader, Gillard, admitted the contribution that the Bible has given to society, and she is an athiest.

Mary, the mother of God has always been held up in the Church, so I don't agree with it stopping women.

Christianity contributed much and profound, as I have said before, from our laws, science, literature, architecture, music, values, virtues, family, the list goes on.

I don't care what people believe, but I do like people acknowledging the contributions they have made while we sit here enjoying our freedoms.

Responsibility and Accountability.

 

[wayneL]

Say an Atheist doesn't like homosexuals... that atheist would tell gay people to get a room and do what they do, or just look away or walk away. If a religious nut doesn't like homosexuals... six of them got stab in a public parade... and the nicer ones make laws that imprison or force castration or just plain old discrimination against them.

That's rubbish http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_the_persecution_of_homosexuals

 

[SirRumpole]

I am asking you that question to point out that your morals that tell you that would be a bad thing to do are obviously not coming from the bible, because the bible instructs you to do that. So you are working off a moral code that is independent of the bible teachings, so saying you can't be good without the bible is plain silly.

I'm not saying "you can't be good without the Bible", I'm pointing out that we DON'T KNOW what we would be like without it because it's there and it's a part of our ongoing cultural development.

It was pointed out that China has evolved without a significant religious history and they are now a country with very few morals or scruples about cheating or mistreating others so maybe they are an indication of how we would turn out without some form of religious belief, flawed though it may be.

 

[MrBurns]

I'm not saying "you can't be good without the Bible", I'm pointing out that we DON'T KNOW what we would be like without it because it's there and it's a part of our ongoing cultural development.

It was pointed out that China has evolved without a significant religious history and they are now a country with very few morals or scruples about cheating or mistreating others so maybe they are an indication of how we would turn out without some form of religious belief, flawed though it may be.

Good post, food for thought...........

 

[Value Collector]

VC, atheism has now become a religion and as you stand up for yours -- I stand up for my freedom of speech and freedom of conscience.

Talking about leaders, why isn't yours, Richard Dawkins, dealing with what is going on under his nose in the UK, now that the pedophiles are coming out of the closet to lower the age limit, since there is no right and wrong there, as we saw on 60 mins.
.

Tink, name one piece of doctrine "atheism" has.

Atheism is not a religion, it's the absence of religion, atheism is nothing more than a simple disbelief if a god, every thing else is some thing else.

any opinion I have about anything else is not atheism, eg My belief in equal rights for gays is not atheism, it's part of my humanism, my belief in a free market is not part of my atheism, it's part of my economic beliefs, the difference is, because I base my beliefs on facts and logic rather than faith, scripture and dogma, I am open to change my mind if evidence shows I am wrong, you however are not.

 

[Value Collector]

I'm not saying "you can't be good without the Bible", I'm pointing out that we DON'T KNOW what we would be like without it because it's there and it's a part of our ongoing cultural development.

so say that we don't know what society would be like rather than saying you know it is the source of our morals and you know it's made society better.

You use China as an example of an immoral culture, because you say they lack religion, but look at all the societies that are the most religious, they conduct terrible atrocities, don't look at our society now where we are probably the least religious, look at the actions of the church lead states when the church had the power, you can't simply look back with rose coloured glasses as if the inquisitions, and torture of non believers didn't exist.

I think China's problems stem from their authoritarian communist past, which is based on dogma and is similar to a religious regime in many ways.

 

[SirRumpole]

so say that we don't know what society would be like rather than saying you know it is the source of our morals and you know it's made society better.

You use China as an example of an immoral culture, because you say they lack religion, but look at all the societies that are the most religious, they conduct terrible atrocities, don't look at our society now where we are probably the least religious, look at the actions of the church lead states when the church had the power, you can't simply look back with rose coloured glasses as if the inquisitions, and torture of non believers didn't exist.

I never discounted the abuses by religious people, I simply acknowledge the good that religion does as well the bad.

This is something that some others seem to have a problem doing.

 

[SirRumpole]

I think China's problems stem from their authoritarian communist past, which is based on dogma and is similar to a religious regime in many ways.

It's a dogma that has no moderating influence, eg belief in something more powerful than the Politburo, and that's the reason they are running amok and putting missile bases on Pacific islands.

 

[Value Collector]

I never discounted the abuses by religious people, I simply acknowledge the good that religion does as well the bad.

This is something that some others seem to have a problem doing.

I acknowledge that there are some positive side effects of religion, I just don't think any of the positive side effects require religion, they can all be achieved in other ways that are less dangerous without the bad side effects.

I mean to me it sounds like you are trying to justify smoking, because smokers report some positive effects, just as I don't think smoking has any positive side effects that can't be achieved in other ways, I don't think religion has any either.

But the main reason you and I are in this current exchange, is because you said the bible is a source of our morals, which it is not, murder was taboo long before the bible stories were written, our social groups would never have survived long enough to develop language and writing if we thought it was a good idea to kill and eat each other.