Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[Value Collector]

if I am responding to something you said, and then a second person comments back to me, but they don't seem to get what I am saying, I will clarify my comment by stating what you have said.

You still haven't responded to my point I made saying that at the time of the Magna carter, the church was still burning witches and heathens, and sentencing people to death or torture for blasphemy, I think it is you that has the selective view of history, you try and paint the Christian faith as a shining light of personal freedoms, which it clearly was not.

After the magma carter was written, your brand of Christian faith was still involved in executions of non Christians for another few hundred years

Yes, but Tink is not saying religion in general help form societies as we see them now,

Rumpole was right, you were wrong, VC.

So next time just answer their questions rather than, Tink said.

Still no comment on the wide spread murder and torture of people who spoke against your church?

Or the killing of people for silly crimes like blasphemy or witch craft?

Your just going to cling to the idea your church was a force for freedom because of the mag a carter, even though it was killing and torturing for years after it was written?

Nice tunnel vision tink

 

[Tisme]

And look at the Chinese society today. Almost totally amoral, will cheat people wherever they can, will invade other countries like Tibet where they don't belong, have very little regard for other cultures or other people's rights.

If you are proposing China as a beacon of non religious morality, then I think you are on the wrong horse.

It's Europe's fault for giving the Chinese an unfounded reputation as being the inventors of everything past, present and future.... Marco Polo and his made up yarns in particular. I'm pretty sure they invented fire, round things and Roman soldiers. Even though the iron age hit China about a thousand years after it started in Britain, the Chinese being the mystical, moral and industrial centre of the entire past invented iron tools too.

Imagine if they had invented The Pill or worse Viagra !!!


.

 

[SirRumpole]

Imagine if they had invented The Pill or worse Viagra !!!


.

Or both, and get the best of both worlds !

 

[Value Collector]

It's Europe's fault for giving the Chinese an unfounded reputation as being the inventors of everything past, present and future.... Marco Polo and his made up yarns in particular. I'm pretty sure they invented fire, round things and Roman soldiers. Even though the iron age hit China about a thousand years after it started in Britain, the Chinese being the mystical, moral and industrial centre of the entire past invented iron tools too.

Imagine if they had invented The Pill or worse Viagra !!!


.

The Chinese had a thriving civilisation for thousands of years that a lot of people forget about when saying things like, "the bible was the first book", "Christians invented charity", "morals come from the bible"

Especially when it comes to morality, people have to remember that the things they would say are could moral teachings have developed independently in many cultures around the world, they did not come from the dusty tents of the bible authors in the middle east, they don't require a belief in a god, the require empathy.

And if you take the books to seriously and read the bad parts of the texts, while also lacking empathy you will end up like ISIS or the Catholic church and have innocent blood on your hands.

 

[Tisme]

Or both, and get the best of both worlds !

Can I push my luck and imagine if the Chinese girls (not the fuglies) invented, owned and operated a strip club...with beer .. and big screened TVs that play Family Guy, Archer and AFL 24/7, oh and maybe American Restoration and American Pickers! Can I dad, can I?

 

[luutzu]

Can I push my luck and imagine if the Chinese girls (not the fuglies) invented, owned and operated a strip club...with beer .. and big screened TVs that play Family Guy, Archer and AFL 24/7, oh and maybe American Restoration and American Pickers! Can I dad, can I?

You shouldn't invent viagra and the pill - the two cancel each other out. It'd be like packing for Disneyland and found out you got no ticket. Will be pretty sad.

But yes they did invent viagra - it's made of tiger and bear's testicles, dried and grounded up. So if a person couldn't get it up, would they prefer some gay blue bill or TIGER's balls? BEAR's and LION's nuts? See, they also invented modern day marketing. haha


Western civilisation is pretty good, but Western European civilisation and expansionism need a few more centuries to really be celebrated and romanticised. A few hundred years isn't long enough to convincingly white wash the good old empire building stuff that was done - needs a thousand year or so for deeds like Caesar's handy work against the Gaul, or Genghis Khan's mountain of skulls to be glossed over without a second thought.

 

[Value Collector]

I wanted to share the Below rant I made in another thread in relation to comments made by sir rumpole, because I think it is a matter that there is confusion on. It seems to be a "go to" response, that people blame Atheism for the crimes of the communist parties last century.

Atheism is not a group that atheists belong to, Atheism is not like Catholicism.

An atheist doesn't need to apologise for the actions of other atheists anymore that a red head needs to apologise for the actions of other unrelated red heads.

Atheism is not an organisation, and it doesn't have doctrines. Its just one opinion on one topic. do you believe in any gods? no = Atheist,

How ever, if you are going to voluntarily join a religious or political organisation that has committed crimes you should lower your head a bit in shame when thinking about the past of that organisation, not gloss over it and try and paint it as a force for good.

I would be apologetic for the acts committed by Stalin if I was a member of a communist party with links to him, but not simply because we both shared a view that their was no gods.

Tink saying the catholic church is a force for good, would be like me saying communism is a force for good.

Me simply not believing a god exists, is not the same as me saying communism is a force for good, My lack of belief in a god has nothing to do with Stalins communist regime.

I know you (sir rumpole) believe in a deist style of god, So I don't put you in the same category as Tink, you don't have to lower your head in shame at the churches history as Tink does. Tink accepts a whole lot of doctrine which you do not, and tink supports an organisation which you do not. You simply having an opinion that a god exists won't lead you to do harm, unless you develop all sorts of other beliefs based on that opinion that transform that simple opinion into a religion, but at that point it becomes the religion that's the problem, not the simple belief or disbelief in a god.

 

[SirRumpole]

Copied from The Pope's Encyclical thread

If you are going to blame Atheism, then you have to show that Atheism was the cause.

So in the case of Mao persecuting religious people and the current Chinese government persecuting Buddhists and the Falung Gong, what other motivation would you suggest ?

 

[Value Collector]

Copied from The Pope's Encyclical thread



So in the case of Mao persecuting religious people and the current Chinese government persecuting Buddhists and the Falung Gong, what other motivation would you suggest ?

There are a few very likely motivations. But I can guarantee, that it is not based on the simple opinion of not believing in any gods, we all have many thoughts, goals and opinions, atheism is just one of them and it doesn't lead anywhere without other opinions or ideas to add to it.

The Chinese have tried to suppress religion because they see it as a threat to the absolute power that they wish their government could hold, they want people to be commited to the state, not a foreign religious organisation,when it comes to Tibet it is also part of a land grab.

Why do you think it's atheism that causes the communists to act like they have? clearly their bad behaviour has been caused by the desperation of trying it install communism.

 

[Tisme]

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself












Karl Marx

 

[SirRumpole]

There are a few very likely motivations. But I can guarantee, that it is not based on the simple opinion of not believing in any gods, we all have many thoughts, goals and opinions, atheism is just one of them and it doesn't lead anywhere without other opinions or ideas to add to it.

The Chinese have tried to suppress religion because they see it as a threat to the absolute power that they wish their government could hold, they want people to be commited to the state, not a foreign religious organisation,when it comes to Tibet it is also part of a land grab.

Why do you think it's atheism that causes the communists to act like they have? clearly their bad behaviour has been caused by the desperation of trying it install communism.

It depends how you want to define "atheism". While I don't blame atheism as such for the acts of some atheists I don't think it's fair to blame Christianity for the acts of some people who call themselves Christians, but have misinterpreted parts of the Bible to suit their own prejudices. If Jesus was here today I don't believe he would have supported the Spanish Inquistion or the Holy Wars. Bad things done in his name are not his problem, they are the problem of the people who committed those acts and not the religion itself.

 

[Tisme]

Copied from The Pope's Encyclical thread

Like 1 minute into this ...deja vu or what:

 

[SirRumpole]

Like 1 minute into this ...deja vu or what:

Yep, send in the clones

 

[Value Collector]

It depends how you want to define "atheism". .

Lack of belief in a god or gods.

that's it, nothing else.

While I don't blame atheism as such for the acts of some atheists

good

I don't think it's fair to blame Christianity for the acts of some people who call themselves Christians

,

As I said, I don't blame Christianity unless there is a direct link to it.

eg. I don't blame Christianity when Jim the Christian hits a guy with a tyre wrench in a road rage incident.

How ever I do blame Christianity when the leaders of a Christian religion whip up the emotions of a mob of followers to go burn a witch or a non believer. Because their is a direct line between them being raised to believe superstious stuff and being taught the bible is the word of god and the texts that state we should burn witches and non believers.

but have misinterpreted parts of the Bible to suit their own prejudices

.

Who's is to say they have misinterpreted? But that's the danger of religion, it allows people to think their own private thoughts are the words of a god speaking to them, and there is books that instruct all sorts of nonsense.

If someone has been raised to believe that a god will talk to them in their prayers and they need to read the bible and god will instruct them, offcourse I am going to blame those teachings when they cause them to do horrible things.

If Jesus was here today I don't believe he would have supported the Spanish Inquistion or the Holy Wars. Bad things done in his name are not his problem, they are the problem of the people who committed those acts and not the religion itself

How do you know? we have no idea what Jesus thought or said or even if he existed, All we have is different interpretations of texts written 100years after he was meant to have died, by people that never met him.

And Christians are taught the best way to find out what he wants of you is to pray and he will guide your thoughts, now if that is not a dangerous thing to be teaching I don't now what is.

And I don't care what jesus would have done, I care what the catholic church did do, and is still doing.

 

[Tink]

To dismantle God is your intention, and make your own rules, morals and standards.

Gods Laws are above humans.

 

[SirRumpole]

And I don't care what jesus would have done, I care what the catholic church did do, and is still doing.

I suggest it would be more constructive to direct your attention to what ISIS et al are doing now rather than what the Catholic church did centuries ago.

What the Catholic church may be doing now is like picking flowers compared to the mass executions, beheadings and sex slavery perpetrated by Muslims in THE NAME of their religion.

So why do we hear so little from you about that ?

 

[Value Collector]

To dismantle God is your intention, and make your own rules, morals and standards.

Gods Laws are above humans.

Which god? and which laws?

none of you religious folk can agree (or prove) which god actually exists, and which book we should work from or even which laws in the book we should follow vs which we should ignore.

either way we have to make up our own laws. I would rather base them on rational thought and evidence rather than superstition.

 

[Tink]

It seems you don't know much about our country, do you?

Maybe you should take more interest in our history, and how this country was set up.

 

[Value Collector]

I suggest it would be more constructive to direct your attention to what ISIS et al are doing now rather than what the Catholic church did centuries ago.

?

So far I haven't seen anyone here trying to argue that ISIS is a force for good or that we need to follow their laws.

Also the teachings of the catholic church are causing problems today.

What the Catholic church may be doing now is like picking flowers compared to the mass executions, beheadings and sex slavery perpetrated by Muslims in THE NAME of their religion.

The catholic churches teachings are helping spread aids in Africa, Spreading Ideas that lead to anti gay laws that involve imprisonment and death and having witch doctors and other traditional spiritual leaders burned alive.

Its not all smiling faces as you would imagine.

So why do we hear so little from you about that

As I said, there is no one here defending those Ideas, So it would be a very short conversation, I am against taking all forms of mythology seriously, You have the right to do it of course, but you have no right to use it to harm others or to force your mythology secular society.

 

[Value Collector]

It seems you don't know much about our country, do you?

Maybe you should take more interest in our history, and how this country was set up.

Is your favourite shape a circle, because your arguments are all circular, it doesn't matter how many times people point out the logical fallacies you are making you keep reverting back to the same pratt (Previously refuted a thousand times)

Australia's constitution doesn't mention the words Jesus, Christian, Bible, pope or catholic.

Our laws do however protect religious freedoms, and it is widely accepted that we are a secular democracy.

and even if it did, it doesn't automatically mean that's the way it always has to be, society changes, it moves on, there was a time when Christianity didn't exist, but parts of the population moved from the old ways to newer ways of Christianity, society will always progress, there is no reason we have to stick to old superstitions, we will eventually drop your mythology.