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The way to fix the evils of islam is not to try and get them to accept the Bible, they already accept the bible mostly, the way to fix it is to get muslims to become less religious and accept secularism.
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And you can start by criticising Islam as much as you criticise Christianity and Christians. Don't just go for the soft targets.
 
There are even New Testament verse ISIS could use to justify their killing.

In Luke 19:27 Jesus says - "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"

Now its part of a story Jesus is telling, but the moral of the story isn't that doing that would be wrong, he is tells the story in a way that it sounds like he thinks the action was justified, he doesn't say its immoral.

Of course any Modern Christian that wants to think Jesus only says and does nice things will explain it away some how, but I can't help but think the various popes over the years would have used such verse's to justify the various crusades, inquisitions and the killing of heathens, jews and pagans etc.
 
SirRumpole said:
And you can start by criticising Islam as much as you criticise Christianity and Christians. Don't just go for the soft targets.
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there is no one here providing arguments for islam, so as I said, what is the point?

bring a muslim into the forum, get him to say what he believes and why and I will pull his arguments apart too.
 
cynic said:
And guess what happens after those prayers for help are answered!

Many, thereafter, cease to recognise any desperately urgent need for continued prayer!

It's so terribly easy to forget, or abandon, the practice/s that aided crisis survival, once the crisis is over!
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For some people, maybe. For others, once their prayers are answered, or so it seem, they became lifelong converts.
 
Value Collector said:
there is no one here providing arguments for islam, so as I said, what is the point?

bring a muslim into the forum, get him to say what he believes and why and I will pull his arguments apart too.
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Or push the ignore button when it goes pear shaped;)
 
Value Collector said:
as I said, hardly a divine list, a high schooler could put together a better list in 20mins.
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Only with the benefit of hindsight and cultural norms where the chicken came before the egg. Your perspective is an ingrained view with a christian society bedrock.

Empire and the USofA have made trade and military pacts based on partner countries adopting Christian ethics (that is not to say Christianity) in regard to rule of law and human rights. Not many other cultures have managed to force barbarian attitudes on civilised nations successfully and maintain human dignity.
 
Tisme said:
Only with the benefit of hindsight and cultural norms where the chicken came before the egg. Your perspective is an ingrained view with a christian society bedrock.

Empire and the USofA have made trade and military pacts based on partner countries adopting Christian ethics (that is not to say Christianity) in regard to rule of law and human rights. Not many other cultures have managed to force barbarian attitudes on civilised nations successfully and maintain human dignity.
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I didn't know Saudi Arabia is Christian Well alright, maybe they have similar religious background and ethics to the olde Christian value. Same with the UAE, Qatar; Neither was Indonesia; South Korea, Japan. Definitely not Israel... and until recently, one of the ally is Turkey - a remnant of that old Muslim empire.

Seems the only common value shared among partners is anything but religious, or value. Just money, trade, strategic convenience and arms deals.
 
luutzu said:
I didn't know Saudi Arabia is Christian Well alright, maybe they have similar religious background and ethics to the olde Christian value. Same with the UAE, Qatar; Neither was Indonesia; South Korea, Japan. Definitely not Israel... and until recently, one of the ally is Turkey - a remnant of that old Muslim empire.

Seems the only common value shared among partners is anything but religious, or value. Just money, trade, strategic convenience and arms deals.
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Did you actually read what I wrote or go straight into tangential mode :D
 
Value Collector said:
There you go with the creepy comments again. Look if you can't admit raping virgin girls is immoral then there is not much point in having a moral discussion with you.

I don't think there is anything your god could do that you would admit he is immoral, your like a twisted North Korean peasant praising the dear leader no matter what he does, because everything he does is automatically moral, because he is the dear leader.

Me saying a woman has the right to decide what happens to her body, is not the same as god instructing an army to raid a tribe killing everyone except the virgin girls which are to be kept for themselves.
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I see we're also going in circles, and yes I agree, there's no point to that. I won't continue.

I've given you reasons and you haven't countered them. Instead you call me creepy, based on the premise that I supported something (in an exceptional context) that you support (in an everyday context). Someone else might call you a creep based on your own criteria here, but you don't seem to realize this.
 
grah33 said:
I see we're also going in circles, and yes I agree, there's no point to that. I won't continue.

I've given you reasons and you haven't countered them. Instead you call me creepy, based on the premise that I supported something (in an exceptional context) that you support (in an everyday context). Someone else might call you a creep based on your own criteria here, but you don't seem to realize this.
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To be fair, calling what someone does creepy isn't the same as calling them a creepy person. We all do creepy stuff now and then, not me but you get the idea.
 
bellenuit said:
But if you reverse that argument, saying late term abortions are immoral as you do, then you should be saying that God is immoral. But you don't. I have no problem saying late term abortions are wrong, except when it is to save the life of the mother (and perhaps a few other circumstances that don't come to mind at the moment) and I can unequivocally say that the actions portrayed in some of the OT are also morally wrong.



You are the first I ever heard say that and it certainly is not in the scriptures. Some commentators may have said it, that I am unaware of, but there are many apologists out there when it comes to condoning vile acts of the OT.

Why don't you simply accept that most of the OT is just a collection of stories from the time, some mythical and some loosely based on actual events, but in all cases with God being erroneously included as a participant or provoker. I presume you do not stand behind the Creation story so why stand behind those other stories? Then you can condemn those acts as immoral, without condemning your God.
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You've condemned secular morality now (changed your mind), saying it's morally wrong to perform late term abortions for convenience sake (many of them are done for convenience). So no point in ranting on previously about how secular morality is much better than Christian morality. At the very least, in the practice of abortion, you agree then that it is better. Your conscience makes you feel compassion for the late term child that would be aborted. I'm glad you spoke your mind, as these are important discussions. And when we talk about morality, we're talking about what morals people follow (not Bible stories you like to mention, or whether God is immoral).

I used the word abortion , yes, to describe the aborting of infants that are already out of the womb. In other words, destroying human life for some perceived good cause. In any case, even if I don't use the word abortion, the example still holds for my argument. We're talking about the authority one person or God has to destroy another human life (5-8 month is quite similar to a newborn). And VC was fairly strong in his belief in a woman having a right to choose no matter how old the child is.

Regards the interpretation of certain stories, Jesus taught a little on Sodom and Gomorrah. This story is the same kind of story as the Amalek one you mentioned, so I think it makes sense to take them literally.
 
luutzu said:
To be fair, calling what someone does creepy isn't the same as calling them a creepy person. We all do creepy stuff now and then, not me but you get the idea.
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From memory VC did call me a creep in an earlier post and he's using the term often enough.
 
grah33 said:
From memory VC did call me a creep in an earlier post and he's using the term often enough.
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Gotta excuse and forgive VC. He was brought up, I'm guessing, by religious people and they all creep him out. That and he knows way too much about religion and its texts it's a miracle he still talk to people who holds the words of the Bible to be factual.

Wouldn't you be creeped out by people who talks to "no one" upstairs? Goes to group meetings where they eat their lord's flesh and drink his blood, then sing and chant in front of images of his torture and hanging?

I better stop before I upset a lot more people :D
 
luutzu said:
Gotta excuse and forgive VC. He was brought up, I'm guessing, by religious people and they all creep him out. That and he knows way too much about religion and its texts it's a miracle he still talk to people who holds the words of the Bible to be factual.

I better stop before I upset a lot more people :D
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What kind of experiences are you talking about? Christian, Islam , Hindu or what? Wanna tell us VC? If it's personal though than you don't have too.
 
grah33 said:
You've condemned secular morality now (changed your mind), saying it's morally wrong to perform late term abortions for convenience sake (many of them are done for convenience).
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I haven't condemned secular morality as you are confusing the absolutist position of religious ordained morality with the worked out positions of secular morality. I don't agree with that particular issue and I also don't hold that late term abortions for pure convenience are accepted by all or even a majority of secularists as moral either. Some maybe, but they would tend to be on the feminist fringe who aren't necessarily in accordance with mainstream opinion. The important thing is that these issues are open for discussion and people make their decisions on facts or issues that may be important to them. Someone forced to carry an unwanted baby is not going to view that issue the same way as a male and though I disagree with them, I am not going to condemn them as I haven't walked in their shoes.

At the very least, in the practice of abortion, you agree then that it is better. Your conscience makes you feel compassion for the late term child that would be aborted.
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Wrong again. I do not agree that it is better, even in respect to late term abortions, as the church's position is to let the mother die if there are complications and only one can be saved.

The rest of what you wrote is rubbish.
 
If the order was reversed so scientific evidence came before the bible then the bible would not have been constructed. The bible dedicates are still holding onto something people knew nothing about thousands of years ago. So unbelievable.
 
Wysiwyg said:
If the order was reversed so scientific evidence came before the bible then the bible would not have been constructed. The bible dedicates are still holding onto something people knew nothing about thousands of years ago. So unbelievable.
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The bible is fairly advanced for its time. e,g, the world's first car is mentioned: when Moses burned up the desert with his hot rod, Arithmetic is in there where e.g. God said "come fourth". It's a wealth of the knowledge :rolleyes:
 
Tisme said:
The bible is fairly advanced for its time. e,g, the world's first car is mentioned: when Moses burned up the desert with his hot rod, Arithmetic is in there where e.g. God said "come fourth". It's a wealth of the knowledge :rolleyes:
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And he taught his flock to multiply and he divided the Red Sea. :cool:
 
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