Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[Value Collector]

Again, you just said that technically a woman has the right, and you are applying this to late term abortions. You're "ok" with restricting late term abortions, but you haven't said they are immoral.

Because to be honest I am not sure it is moral to force a woman to remain pregnant against her will.

As I said the only reason I am ok with putting restrictions on later term abortions is because women do the have the right to early term ones, so in the interest of trying to find some middle ground between a babies right to life and a woman right to her body, I think we should restrict late term but allow early term, so that if a women really does not want the pregnancy she is encouraged to do it earlier rather than later.

How is a late term baby (say 8 months) vastly different from a newborn (few days)?

they aren't that different, I haven't said they are?

If a woman has a right to abort her child, why doesn't a Creator have the right to abort life shortly after birth, since they are similarly equal?

You are missing the whole point, The mother doesn't have the right to kill the baby, its just the baby doesn't have the right to be in the mothers womb if she doesn't want it there, the fact that the baby does without a womb to live in is just a fact of nature.

Answer me these 2 questions.

If a 21 year old man suffers kidney failure, and is going to die without a kidney, is it immoral for a mother to refuse to donate a kidney to him?

Should we legislate that mothers need to provide their bodies as needed to keep their children alive?

 

[Value Collector]

Christian morality as espoused by Jesus is pretty much the same as secular morality and that is because, IMO, there is only secular morality and religions have merely adopted the secular morality of the time. Christianity, unlike Islam, has managed to keep up with secular morality since the time of Jesus, usually with some degree of resistance, but eventually getting there on most issues.

I partially agree, I still think Christian morality lags behind secular morality and simply plays catch up once they are clearly shown to be on the wrong side of history.

The reason is that religious folk cling to absolute rules.

Eg. they will protest euthanasia because the bible says "thy shalt not kill", even when a rational person weighing up the facts from a non religious perspective could easily see that allowing a terminally ill person to die on their terms is probably the best moral outcome.

 

[SirRumpole]

There is one big difference. You and VC argued about whether the nuke bombing was morally correct. You both had a different perspective and were both presumably using your own moral criteria and the information available to base your decision on. In regards to the bible, that doesn't come into play for many. Because certain actions were ordered or committed by God, then that is OK, full stop, no need for discussion, even though the actions were the opposite to what Jesus preached.

The point is that these actions that God committed or ordered are in the past and are not a basis for what happens today. Sure there may be cranks who equate modern day Las Vegas to Sodom and Gomarah, but do we really think the majority of Christians believe they should be destroyed ? I haven't heard any Christians calling for the nuking of what Christians generally regard as a pretty immoral place.

 

[Value Collector]

The point is that these actions that God committed or ordered are in the past and are not a basis for what happens today. Sure there may be cranks who equate modern day Las Vegas to Sodom and Gomarah, but do we really think the majority of Christians believe they should be destroyed ? I haven't heard any Christians calling for the nuking of what Christians generally regard as a pretty immoral place.

Modern day Christians still say the Bible is the source of morality, Hence why we pointed out the immorality in it.

If Christians weren't claiming the Bible is the foundation for what is moral and what isn't, we wouldn't be talking about it.

I am quite happy to let the bible sit there as a book of old stories that had some cultural influence on our society, it's only when people say we should be basing our laws and our lives on it today that I will point out how silly it is, and how there is a bunch of terrible things in it.

 

[SirRumpole]

I am quite happy to let the bible sit there as a book of old stories that had some cultural influence on our society, it's only when people say we should be basing our laws and our lives on it today that I will point out how silly it is, and how there is a bunch of terrible things in it.

I'd be less concerned about Christianity than Islam. You can leave Christianity, but if you leave Islam you are condemned to death.

But that's another thread.

The Ten Commandments aren't perfect, but they are the basis of our laws. Without them anarchy and tryanny would have reigned for much longer than it has.

 

[Value Collector]

The Ten Commandments aren't perfect, but they are the basis of our laws. Without them anarchy and tryanny would have reigned for much longer than it has.

just about anyone could write a better list of 10 rules than the Ten Commandments, they are hardly divine.

The Ten Commandments is a pretty rubbish list, and they aren't the basis of our laws, and plenty of societies exist without them that aren't in "Anarchy or tyranny".

sure there is a couple of the commandments that are ok, but those are common sense that pretty much all societies live by.

 

[luutzu]

I'd be less concerned about Christianity than Islam. You can leave Christianity, but if you leave Islam you are condemned to death.

But that's another thread.

The Ten Commandments aren't perfect, but they are the basis of our laws. Without them anarchy and tryanny would have reigned for much longer than it has.

Try leaving any religion is there'll be some idiot among them who would take it as a personal insult, or insult against their religion, and do nasty stuff to you.

So while there are circumstances among some Muslim clerics and other idiots who would commit murder when one of their flock leave the faith, it's a myth that it's a universal Muslim practice.

 

[Value Collector]

just about anyone could write a better list of 10 rules than the Ten Commandments, they are hardly divine.

The Ten Commandments is a pretty rubbish list, and they aren't the basis of our laws, and plenty of societies exist without them that aren't in "Anarchy or tyranny".

sure there is a couple of the commandments that are ok, but those are common sense that pretty much all societies live by.

This list is not the foundation of our society, and as I said above, I think any person here given 1 hour of thinking time, could write a much better list.

• 1, You shall have no other gods before Me.

• 2, You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything.

• 3, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.

• 4, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

• 5, Honor your father and your mother.

• 6, You shall not murder.

• 7, You shall not commit adultery.

• 8, You shall not steal.

• 9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

• 10, You shall not covet your neighbor's house, wife, or property.

1, 2, 3, 4, are complete BS

5 is meh

6, 7, 8, 9, are ok, but are pretty universal among societies due to the common sense nature, and due to the absolute nature can cause immoral actions.

10 is meh

 

[Tisme]

The Ten Commandments is a pretty rubbish list, and they aren't the basis of our laws, and plenty of societies exist without them that aren't in "Anarchy or tyranny".

.

If they aren't tyrannical, chances are they have adopted western value and rule of law systems that are definitely predicated on the protestant new testament and the 10 Mosaic laws.

 

[Value Collector]

If they aren't tyrannical, chances are they have adopted western value and rule of law systems that are definitely predicated on the protestant new testament and the 10 Mosaic laws.

As I said there is only 4 of the 10 that are really any good, and those 4 are just commonsense and were existed before the 10 commandments, it's not hard to figure out that if we are going to live together effectively we should avoiding killing each other, stealing from each other, lying about each other and trying to have sex with each others wives.

the only 4 rules from the 10 that are any good are pretty much universal among human societies, whether they are western or not

as I said, hardly a divine list, a high schooler could put together a better list in 20mins.

 

[SirRumpole]

As I said there is only 4 of the 10 that are really any good, and those 4 are just commonsense and were existed before the 10 commandments, it's not hard to figure out that if we are going to live together effectively we should avoiding killing each other, stealing from each other, lying about each other and trying to have sex with each others wives.

the only 4 rules from the 10 that are any good are pretty much universal among human societies, whether they are western or not

as I said, hardly a divine list, a high schooler could put together a better list in 20mins.

Regardless what you think of the TC's they are the basis of our laws, and the basis of the laws of most democracies, even though some countries have secularised their constitutions to separate church and State, which is a good idea.

Ask yourself if you would prefer to live in a democracy or in a place like China where they have tried very hard to eliminate religion and the people are virtually required to worship one man, or Muslim countries where they would flog your gay mates and stick their religious noses into your personal life.

 

[SirRumpole]

So while there are circumstances among some Muslim clerics and other idiots who would commit murder when one of their flock leave the faith, it's a myth that it's a universal Muslim practice.

I never said it was "universal", but it is prevalent in Muslim communities and in other faiths to a lesser extent.

https://thedebrief.co.uk/news/politics/uk-honour-killings/

"Leaving their religion is equally comes fraught with risks and by no means an easy decision to make. While Alya ‘came out’ to her family, she no longer feels safe in her predominantly Asian, Muslim area: “I have been told (by ex-friends and acquaintances) that I'm disgraceful, that apostates should be killed and that I'm going to hell.”"

 

[SuperGlue]

They work in mysterious ways up there.

German far-right AfD politician converts to Islam

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42804202

 

[Value Collector]

Regardless what you think of the TC's they are the basis of our laws, and the basis of the laws of most democracies, even though some countries have secularised their constitutions to separate church and State, which is a good idea.

Really, you think our society is based on all 10 of the commandments? please explain how 1,2,3 or 4 have anything to do with our society

Ask yourself if you would prefer to live in a democracy

Do you think the 10 commandments is about democracy? number 1 and number 10 are basically creating "thought crimes", making it a crime to think about certain things.

in a place like China where they have tried very hard to eliminate religion and the people are virtually required to worship one man

that is the goal of the 10 commandments it outlaws other religions also, thats what rules 1, 2, and 3 are about, making you worship one man, which by the way you can't see, so you will just have to follow those "holy men"

or Muslim countries where they would flog your gay mates and stick their religious noses into your personal life.

What are you talking about? the muslims have the same ten commandments

 

[SirRumpole]

Really, you think our society is based on all 10 of the commandments?

No, because separation of church and State does away with the religious loyalty stuff.

What are you talking about? the muslims have the same ten commandments.

Oh come on, you don't read the news ?

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2017/10/29/indonesia-aceh-sharia-law-flogging/

 

[Value Collector]

No, because separation of church and State does away with the religious loyalty stuff.

So you admit the first 4 of 10 are useless? thats reduced it down a bit,

What about how number 10 is about thought crime? does thought crime have anything to do with democracy?

Oh come on, you don't read the news ?

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2017/10/29/indonesia-aceh-sharia-law-flogging/

the 10 commandments doesn't outlaw the beating of gays, as I said a high schooler could right a better list.

In fact the bible chapters that come after the 10 commandments, instruct that gays should be stoned to death.

So beating gays as they are in the article you posted doesn't go against either the 10 commandments or the Bible.

 

[SirRumpole]

In fact the bible chapters that come after the 10 commandments, instruct that gays should be stoned to death.

The fact is that democracies don't flog gays, Muslim countries do. How does that stand on your morality scale ?

You are making a big noise about little that is relevant in this country today and ignoring institutionalised human rights abuses of other religions.

I think you need a better sense of perspective.

 

[luutzu]

I never said it was "universal", but it is prevalent in Muslim communities and in other faiths to a lesser extent.

https://thedebrief.co.uk/news/politics/uk-honour-killings/

"Leaving their religion is equally comes fraught with risks and by no means an easy decision to make. While Alya ‘came out’ to her family, she no longer feels safe in her predominantly Asian, Muslim area: “I have been told (by ex-friends and acquaintances) that I'm disgraceful, that apostates should be killed and that I'm going to hell.”"

That just shows any extreme religious group, or person, will do crazy stuff.

If, say, Western democracies still permit Christians to do what their Bible or group leader said, there would still be witch burning. Not to mention no alcohol, no pr0n, no condoms, no sex. And forget about the gays thinking they ought to be permitted to get married, they'd be right next on the stake after the witch fireworks.

That doesn't mean the average Christian would condone or want such things done. It's just a reminder that all religion are crazy, with a few real nutjobs among them.

 

[SirRumpole]

That doesn't mean the average Christian would condone or want such things done. It's just a reminder that all religion are crazy, with a few real nutjobs among them.

The gays who were flogged in Indonesia were dragged and and turned over to the authorities by their local community, "average Muslims".

People who make such a big deal about Christian influence are ignoring the real problem.

 

[Value Collector]

The fact is that democracies don't flog gays, Muslim countries do. How does that stand on your morality scale ?

Dude, that is because modern democracies have become more secular, and hence more moral, that has been my point all along, the more religious a government is the more likely it is to breach human rights.

When western countries were more religious and less secular (most of their history), they did flog gays and burn heathens etc. for 80% of christian history, all sorts of things were common place that you find immoral, its only recently we have been moving away from that, and the is due to secularism.

What you don't seem to understand is that the majority of the stuff you love about our modern democracies has only come about as we have gradually become less and less religious.