Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[Value Collector]

The gays who were flogged in Indonesia were dragged and and turned over to the authorities by their local community, "average Muslims".

People who make such a big deal about Christian influence are ignoring the real problem.

But you claimed that wouldn't happen if they followed the 10 commandments,

But where in the 10 commandments does it outlaw beating gays?

 

[grah33]

Because to be honest I am not sure it is moral to force a woman to remain pregnant against her will.

As I said the only reason I am ok with putting restrictions on later term abortions is because women do the have the right to early term ones, so in the interest of trying to find some middle ground between a babies right to life and a woman right to her body, I think we should restrict late term but allow early term, so that if a women really does not want the pregnancy she is encouraged to do it earlier rather than later.



they aren't that different, I haven't said they are?




You are missing the whole point, The mother doesn't have the right to kill the baby, its just the baby doesn't have the right to be in the mothers womb if she doesn't want it there, the fact that the baby does without a womb to live in is just a fact of nature.

Answer me these 2 questions.

If a 21 year old man suffers kidney failure, and is going to die without a kidney, is it immoral for a mother to refuse to donate a kidney to him?

Should we legislate that mothers need to provide their bodies as needed to keep their children alive?

I understand where you are coming from, since I had similar thoughts a long time ago. And from what you're saying, I still feel that you are okay with late term abortions, as you understand the basis for them . Your ability to understand this, relates to my argument very much, since I believe you will also have no problem understanding my point of view.

I feel you're merely expressing “the mothers right to choose” in different ways and words, and I could also do the same. If you think a mother has such rights, then God (Creator, and a higher life form) truly has even more rights. Or, using different words similar to you, the infants don't have the right to be there if God doesn't want them there.

Can you see the similarity now between your argument and mine, justifying God's right to take away life (applying it to infants)?

(answers to your questions:No it's not immoral. No we shouldn't legislate.)

 

[SirRumpole]

What you don't seem to understand is that the majority of the stuff you love about our modern democracies has only come about as we have gradually become less and less religious.

So what is your problem ?

I have no problems about being "less" religious without being totally amoral, I'm just saying that the religious ideas of Christianity , peace, love, tolerance and all that molded our society into what it is today, a basically generous, tolerant, pluralistic and multicultural society, contrasted by countries where there is an absence of religion (eg China), or competing theocracies eg Muslim countries where human rights abuses and intolerance are widespread.

Sure you can go on about the Spanish Inquisition or other such stuff that happened centuries ago, but I'm concerned about what is happening today and I'm basically glad I live in this country rather than a China or a primitive Muslim country.

 

[Value Collector]

So what is your problem ?

.

I have no problem, as I said I am happy we are becoming more secular over time, because secular morality is superior to religious morality.

I have no problems about being "less" religious without being totally amoral, I'm just saying that the religious ideas of Christianity , peace, love, tolerance all that molded our society into what it is today, a basically generous, tolerant, pluralistic and multicultural society, contrasted by countries where there is an absence of religion (eg China), or competing theocracies eg Muslim countries where human rights abuses and intolerance are widespread.

Well you specifically named the 10 commandments, which as I pointed out

A. it doesn't out law the human rights abuses you have named.

B. Its is part of the Islamic faith which you have named as being a particular problem

Sure you can go on about the Spanish Inquisition or other such stuff that happened centuries ago,

Yes, and that happened under christian theocracies, who believed in the 10 commandments. as I said the more religious you are the more human rights abuses.

but I'm concerned about what is happening today and I'm basically glad I live in this country rather than a China or a primitive Muslim country

I am glad you enjoy living in our secular nation, just don't that the religions for what secularism provides.

religious ideas of Christianity , peace, love, tolerance

thats just Humanism, not Christianity, if you want to cherry pick the nice parts of christianity, just ditch it and go straight to humanism.

 

[Value Collector]

I understand where you are coming from, since I had similar thoughts a long time ago. And from what you're saying, I still feel that you are okay with late term abortions, as you understand the basis for them . Your ability to understand this, relates to my argument very much, since I believe you will also have no problem understanding my point of view.
)

I am not going to discuss late term abortions since I have already said I am fine restricting them.

If you think a mother has such rights, then God (Creator, and a higher life form) truly has even more rights. Or, using different words similar to you, the infants don't have the right to be there if God doesn't want them there.

Can you see the similarity now between your argument and mine, justifying God's right to take away life (applying it to infants)?

Thats where you get creepy, because their is no evidence the god you speak of exists, it turns out that its just religious people such as yourself saying that their opinions over rule every one else's, and they won't accept logic because they know the mind of god.

(answers to your questions:No it's not immoral. No we shouldn't legislate.

So if it's morally ok for a mother to deny using her body to keep a 21 year old alive, why is it wrong for her to deny using her body to keep a zygote of blastocyst alive?

If you are not going to legislate that a mother must donate blood or a kidney to her children to keep them alive, why would you want to legislate she had to donate her entire body for the period of the pregnancy.

 

[SirRumpole]

thats just Humanism, not Christianity, if you want to cherry pick the nice parts of christianity, just ditch it and go straight to humanism.

There is not a lot of evidence for humanism (as a movement rather than idea) before Christianity, so it could be said that Christianity influenced humanism.

 

[luutzu]

The gays who were flogged in Indonesia were dragged and and turned over to the authorities by their local community, "average Muslims".

People who make such a big deal about Christian influence are ignoring the real problem.

Trump banned recruitment of transgender into the military. It was only a couple of years ago that homosexuals can get married in some states in the US. We OZ just kinda permit it.

So what is your problem ?

I have no problems about being "less" religious without being totally amoral, I'm just saying that the religious ideas of Christianity , peace, love, tolerance and all that molded our society into what it is today, a basically generous, tolerant, pluralistic and multicultural society, contrasted by countries where there is an absence of religion (eg China), or competing theocracies eg Muslim countries where human rights abuses and intolerance are widespread.

Sure you can go on about the Spanish Inquisition or other such stuff that happened centuries ago, but I'm concerned about what is happening today and I'm basically glad I live in this country rather than a China or a primitive Muslim country.

A country is "primitive", aka "shiethole", has a lot to do with things other than its religion or culture or people.

For most of its history, the Christian West was a real shiet hole with peasants living in rock huts and the gentry throwing raw sewage over their balconies each morning.

Were those due to its Christian values?

 

[SirRumpole]

For most of its history, the Christian West was a real shiet hole with peasants living in rock huts and the gentry throwing raw sewage over their balconies each morning.

That's not a religious issue, it's a matter of resources available for sewerage works.

 

[grah33]

I am not going to discuss late term abortions since I have already said I am fine restricting them.



Thats where you get creepy, because their is no evidence the god you speak of exists, it turns out that its just religious people such as yourself saying that their opinions over rule every one else's, and they won't accept logic because they know the mind of god.



So if it's morally ok for a mother to deny using her body to keep a 21 year old alive, why is it wrong for her to deny using her body to keep a zygote of blastocyst alive?

If you are not going to legislate that a mother must donate blood or a kidney to her children to keep them alive, why would you want to legislate she had to donate her entire body for the period of the pregnancy.

You're fine with restricting late term abortions, that's great. But do you condemn late term abortions as being immoral? If not my argument applies.

And just assume God does exist, for the sake of the argument. Does my view now make sense?

(It's not about the kidney though, or even me condemning abortion. It's about you saying God's actions are wrong, so that is why I inquire from you. Although with pregnancy (unlike the kidney situation), the woman doesn't lose any body parts, she just performs a female function she is designed for)

 

[Value Collector]

There is not a lot of evidence for humanism (as a movement rather than idea) before Christianity, so it could be said that Christianity influenced humanism.

I would say the things you like about humanism and Christianity, are pretty universal, and have always been part of the human condition. I mean its hard to exist for long as a social group without a basic understanding that we are going to look after each other, and avoid killing each other.

I mean, the idea to not kill each other and not steal each others stuff would have been pretty much universal across all human societies for at least 40,000 years before the bible or Jesus, other wise societies would never have formed.

 

[luutzu]

That's not a religious issue, it's a matter of resources available for sewerage works.

Exactly.

Same can be said of Muslim countries, African and all other under-developed countries. It starts with not having any economic power among the plebs... then without money there's no chance of an education, no voice to be heard so they often turn to their country's favourite religion and pray for fortunes and good health.

With poverty come desperation for help from above. Those fathers and bishops then grant favours, send hope and prayers... at a steep price.

 

[SirRumpole]

I mean, the idea to not kill each other and not steal each others stuff would have been pretty much universal across all human societies for at least 40,000 years before the bible or Jesus, other wise societies would never have formed.

The Egyptians had slaves, the Romans invaded other cultures and enslaved them. Not very humanist ?

 

[Value Collector]

You're fine with restricting late term abortions, that's great. But do you condemn late term abortions as being immoral? If not my argument applies.

To be honest I am not 100%, its hard to know where the line between I woman right to her body over rules a foetuses life, but as I said I am fine with combating that by just restrict the abortions to early terms.

And just assume God does exist, for the sake of the argument. Does my view now make sense?

No, because even if god existed, it doesn't mean everything he did would automatically be moral.

It's about you saying God's actions are wrong, so that is why I inquire from you.

Dude, I don't even believe your god exists, the "God's actions" are normally carried out by psycho men with voices in their heads.

Although with pregnancy (unlike the kidney situation), the woman doesn't lose any body parts, she just performs a female function she is designed for)

pregnancy has all sorts of risks, including death.

 

[Value Collector]

The Egyptians had slaves,

so did the christians.

The 10 commandments doesn't outlaw slavery, the bible condones it, and Jesus said "slaves obey your master".

the Romans invaded other cultures and enslaved them

So did the christians or are you forgetting the slavery in the the USA and Europe?

Not very humanist ?

I am not saying all actions were 100% humanist, just that the basics of not killing your neighbour etc have always been there, humans have mostly been ok with invading and conquering in the past whether they were christian or not.

No society has been perfect so far, but the best one have been secular.

and saying the good stuff came from christianity is silly, because the good stuff has always been there, even if it gets pushed aside sometimes, its ben growing in the background despite religion not because of it.

 

[grah33]

To be honest I am not 100%, its hard to know where the line between I woman right to her body over rules a foetuses life, but as I said I am fine with combating that by just restrict the abortions to early terms.


No, because even if god existed, it doesn't mean everything he did would automatically be moral.



Dude, I don't even believe your god exists, the "God's actions" are normally carried out by psycho men with voices in their heads.



pregnancy has all sorts of risks, including death.

Well, if you're not 100 percent, then you're still not saying that late term abortions are immoral. So you shouldn't say God is immoral too , for doing a similar thing . Judaic context, scripture, and commentary all suggest God was performing a type of abortion (same too with Sodom and Gomorah) on the innocent that were in the way of things.

In both cases you have babies of similar age (I'm comparing to late term abortion), and one person that has or may have a right. If you disagree, then you're saying God doesn't have a right but people do, which is ridiculous dude.

 

[cynic]

Exactly.

Same can be said of Muslim countries, African and all other under-developed countries. It starts with not having any economic power among the plebs... then without money there's no chance of an education, no voice to be heard so they often turn to their country's favourite religion and pray for fortunes and good health.

With poverty come desperation for help from above. Those fathers and bishops then grant favours, send hope and prayers... at a steep price.

And guess what happens after those prayers for help are answered!

Many, thereafter, cease to recognise any desperately urgent need for continued prayer!

It's so terribly easy to forget, or abandon, the practice/s that aided crisis survival, once the crisis is over!

 

[SirRumpole]

and saying the good stuff came from christianity is silly, because the good stuff has always been there, even if it gets pushed aside sometimes, its ben growing in the background despite religion not because of it.

When you start actively condemning the two biggest evils in the world today; ie radical Islam and totalitarianism then I'll believe that you have a sense of perspective, but right now I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[bellenuit]

Well, if you're not 100 percent, then you're still not saying that late term abortions are immoral. So you shouldn't say God is immoral too , for doing a similar thing.

But if you reverse that argument, saying late term abortions are immoral as you do, then you should be saying that God is immoral. But you don't. I have no problem saying late term abortions are wrong, except when it is to save the life of the mother (and perhaps a few other circumstances that don't come to mind at the moment) and I can unequivocally say that the actions portrayed in some of the OT are also morally wrong.

Judaic context, scripture, and commentary all suggest God was performing a type of abortion (same too with Sodom and Gomorah) on the innocent that were in the way of things.

You are the first I ever heard say that and it certainly is not in the scriptures. Some commentators may have said it, that I am unaware of, but there are many apologists out there when it comes to condoning vile acts of the OT.

Why don't you simply accept that most of the OT is just a collection of stories from the time, some mythical and some loosely based on actual events, but in all cases with God being erroneously included as a participant or provoker. I presume you do not stand behind the Creation story so why stand behind those other stories? Then you can condemn those acts as immoral, without condemning your God.

 

[Value Collector]

So you shouldn't say God is immoral too , for doing a similar thing .

There you go with the creepy comments again. Look if you can't admit raping virgin girls is immoral then there is not much point in having a moral discussion with you.

I don't think there is anything your god could do that you would admit he is immoral, your like a twisted North Korean peasant praising the dear leader no matter what he does, because everything he does is automatically moral, because he is the dear leader.

Me saying a woman has the right to decide what happens to her body, is not the same as god instructing an army to raid a tribe killing everyone except the virgin girls which are to be kept for themselves.

 

[Value Collector]

When you start actively condemning the two biggest evils in the world today; ie radical Islam and totalitarianism then I'll believe that you have a sense of perspective, but right now I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Islam is a religion, and I condemn all religions, I thought I have made that pretty clear.

Everyone here already accepts heaps of immorality comes from islam, there is no need for me to discuss it, because everyone here already agrees, no point trying to convince people ISIS is bad, because everyone here knows this, that would just be preaching to the choir.

The only reason we are discussing christianity is because you are saying its different and is some sort of shinning light, So I have been pointing out that in fact its not, its very similar to islam and everything you say is good about our modern society is from a growing movement towards secularism not christianity.

The way to fix the evils of islam is not to try and get them to accept the Bible, they already accept the bible mostly, the way to fix it is to get muslims to become less religious and accept secularism.