Religion IS crazy!

[Julia]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Because I thought, so it was.



.

I don't doubt that your thought processes are magnificent, Wysiwyg, but your post implies that your very thinking caused the processes you describe to occur. Probably not quite what you intended?

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

I don't doubt that your thought processes are magnificent, Wysiwyg, but your post implies that your very thinking caused the processes you describe to occur. Probably not quite what you intended?

Hi Julia, I attended a School of Philosophy course late last century and one of the questions (one of those zen thingys) was

What sound does a boulder falling make in a canyon with no person around?

I told Miss that you would have to place a recording device in the canyon to capture the sound.

"No recording device" she said."What would it sound like?"


.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Hi Julia, I attended a School of Philosophy course late last century and one of the questions (one of those zen thingys) was

What sound does a boulder falling make in a canyon with no person around?

I told Miss that you would have to place a recording device in the canyon to capture the sound.

"No recording device" she said."What would it sound like?"


.

It would make the same sound that it would if someone did hear it.

The sound is constant, only the capture of the sound in someone's ear differs.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Jules, I have moved the comma to a different position.

Because I thought so, it was.

WayneL ... i thought that way too.

 

[spooly74]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Wrong.
If a person has no proof that God does or does not exist, then it's quite reasonable for that person to say "Maybe God exists and maybe he doesn't....I don't have an opinion either way...I neither believe nor disbelieve it".

You did not include all of my post where i explained my thoughts.
Either god exists or god does not exist.
Not believing in god is not the same as believing the opposite.

 

[JellySausage]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Jules, I have moved the comma to a different position.

WayneL ... i thought that way too.

I guess you're saying that it wouldn't sound like anything if there was no one there to interpret it.

You make it analogous with how wonderful you perceive the world to be.

Though, I'm unsure how this relates to the thread. Care to elaborate for those of us who aren't quite so zen?

 

[wayneL]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Re Morals:

I came across this today reading stories of Lao Tzu.

...Confucius asked of Lao Tzu, "What do you say about morality? What do you say about how to cultivate good character?" -- because he was a moralist and he thought that if you cultivate a good character that is the highest attainment.

Lao Tzu laughed loudly, and said, "If you are immoral, only then the question of morality arises. And if you don't have any character, only then you think about character. A man of character is absolutely oblivious of the fact that anything like character exists. A man of morality does not know what the word `moral' means. So don't be foolish! And don't try to cultivate. Just be natural."

 

[wayneL]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

...and this FWIW

LAO TZU says: The moment you start thinking of order, disorder arises. The moment you think of God, the devil is already present there -- because thinking can only be of the opposites; thinking can be only of the duality. Thinking has a deep dichotomy in it, thinking is dysfunctional, it is a split phenomenon. That's why there is so much insistence on attaining to a non-thinking state -- because only then will you be one. Otherwise you will remain two, divided, split, dysfunctional.

In the West psychological dysfunction has become by and by more and more common, because all the Western religions deep down are duplicitous; they divide. They say God is good. Then where to put all the evil? God is simply good and he cannot be bad, and there is much that is bad in life -- where to put that badness? So a devil is created. The moment you create a god, immediately you create a devil. I must tell you -- Lao Tzu never talks about God, never. Not even a single time does he use the word "god," because once you use the word "god" the devil immediately enters through the same door. Open the door -- they both come in together. Thinking is always in opposites.

 

[Sean K]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

...and this FWIW

Wu Wei.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

I guess you're saying that it wouldn't sound like anything if there was no one there to interpret it.

You make it analogous with how wonderful you perceive the world to be.

Though, I'm unsure how this relates to the thread. Care to elaborate for those of us who aren't quite so zen?

No

 

[bunyip]

Re: Religion gone crazy!


Quote:
...Confucius asked of Lao Tzu, "What do you say about morality? What do you say about how to cultivate good character?" -- because he was a moralist and he thought that if you cultivate a good character that is the highest attainment.

Lao Tzu laughed loudly, and said, "If you are immoral, only then the question of morality arises. And if you don't have any character, only then you think about character. A man of character is absolutely oblivious of the fact that anything like character exists. A man of morality does not know what the word `moral' means. So don't be foolish! And don't try to cultivate. Just be natural."

Sounds like a lot on nonsense to me, Wayne.

My wife and I put considerable effort into raising our four children to be people of character, integrity, and strong morals.
Since we saw fit to talk about the subject frequently with our kids, I guess that means (according to Lao Tzu at least) that neither of us has any character or morals.

Almost every day I see examples of people who clearly are devoid of character and morals. It disappoints me, and I wish they could have had the upbringing that I had, or that my kids had, so they could have learned about character and morality and lived their lives accordingly.
But here again, my very act of thinking about character and morals betrays me, according to Lao Tzu, as someone who is devoid of both qualities.

I'm sure there was much wisdom in the teachings of Lao Tzu. But in regard to morals and character, it appears that the man had a lot to learn.

 

[bunyip]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

There's been plenty of debate/discussion on this thread about the existence/non-existence of God....some are adamant that he exists, while others are convinced he's a myth.
If you're from the camp that believes in God, what do you think of him?
Below are just some of the qualities attributed to God........

* He's loving, caring and compassionate.
* He makes a reliable friend.
* His wisdom is unsurpassed.
* He's an absolute rock for us in troubled times....if we take our troubles to God he'll help us cope.
* He'll keep us safe...nothing can hurt us while we walk with God.
* He'll provide us with whatever we need....ask and we will receive.
* He'll never forsake us.
etc etc etc

So what are the thoughts of the forum......how do you think God shapes up in these areas?

 

[Judd]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Hmmm, probably a pretty boring dude. S/he (what are the religious so certain that God is a he or indeed has any gender) is omnipotent right? So that means no point telling any jokes cause s/he/indeterminate would already know the answer.

And me baptized as a relapsed Roman Catholic. Tch, tch.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Sounds like a lot on nonsense to me, Wayne.

My wife and I put considerable effort into raising our four children to be people of character, integrity, and strong morals.
Since we saw fit to talk about the subject frequently with our kids, I guess that means (according to Lao Tzu at least) that neither of us has any character or morals.

Almost every day I see examples of people who clearly are devoid of character and morals. It disappoints me, and I wish they could have had the upbringing that I had, or that my kids had, so they could have learned about character and morality and lived their lives accordingly.
But here again, my very act of thinking about character and morals betrays me, according to Lao Tzu, as someone who is devoid of both qualities.

I'm sure there was much wisdom in the teachings of Lao Tzu. But in regard to morals and character, it appears that the man had a lot to learn.

Well, Confucius didn't like what he heard either, according to the story, and I'll admit in isolation and without the context of the rest of Lao Tzu's teachings, it may seem nonsense.

But if you look at the next post, the writer gives some clues as to what this might mean and you might see you are looking at it in slightly the wrong way.

If you go ahead and define good morals, you immediately create bad morals. If you define good character, you create bad character. This is the dichotomy of western thinking. Lao Tzu held the view that... well let's let the same writer give a run down.

Lao Tzu is not mathematical at all, yet he is very, very logical in his madness. He has a mad logic! When we penetrate into his sayings you will come to feel it; it is not so obvious and apparent. He has a logic of his own: the logic of absurdity, the logic of paradox, the logic of a madman. He hits hard.

To understand Lao Tzu's logic you will have to create eyes. It is very subtle, it is not the ordinary logic of the logicians -- it is the logic of a hidden life, a very subtle life. Whatsoever he says is on the surface absurd; deep down there lives a very great consistency. One has to penetrate it; one has to change his own mind to understand Lao Tzu.

When you try to understand Lao Tzu he zigzags. Sometimes you see him going towards the east and sometimes towards the west, because he says east is west and west is east, they are together, they are one. He believes in the unity of the opposites. And that is how life is.

So Lao Tzu is just a spokesman of life. If life is absurd, Lao Tzu is absurd; if life has an absurd logic to it, Lao Tzu has the same logic to it. Lao Tzu simply reflects life. He doesn't add anything to it, he doesn't choose out of it; he simply accepts whatsoever it is.

When you first read Lao Tzu, with typical logical western thinking, it does indeed seem nonsense, but there is an alluring truth in all he wrote that keeps me trying to nut it out.

Whenever I go off the rails, get disappointed, angry with people, depressed... I come back to Lao Tzu; he brings me back to the centre in a way no other Guru can.

It is not a religious thing, it is a philosophical thing.

But back to morals and character: What are good morals and character.

It was once considered that homosexuality was completely immoral, now it is considered completely natural by most. It was once considered that a lady showing here knee was immoral, now we lucky guys get to see much more. The ancient Greeks considered the womans back to be erotic and to show it in public was immoral, the breasts were not considered something to necessarily be covered.

It was once considered good character to fight to the death if one's honour is insulted. This is now considered murder. It was once considered bad character to get drunk, now it is almost a badge of honour. It was once considered good character to face your enemy in lines with brightly coloured tunics, playing bagpipes and keeping a stiff upper lip; this is now considered lunacy.

Morals and character have very shifting goalposts and and are something that are inflicted upon us by the society we live in; it is this absurdity that Lao Tzu observes and comments on.

To me it makes all the sense in the world. But Lao Tzu would probably laugh loudly at me too. :

 

[Sean K]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

There's been plenty of debate/discussion on this thread about the existence/non-existence of God....some are adamant that he exists, while others are convinced he's a myth.
If you're from the camp that believes in God, what do you think of him?
Below are just some of the qualities attributed to God........

* He's loving, caring and compassionate.
* He makes a reliable friend.
* His wisdom is unsurpassed.
* He's an absolute rock for us in troubled times....if we take our troubles to God he'll help us cope.
* He'll keep us safe...nothing can hurt us while we walk with God.
* He'll provide us with whatever we need....ask and we will receive.
* He'll never forsake us.
etc etc etc

So what are the thoughts of the forum......how do you think God shapes up in these areas?

He's also:

Racist
Jealous
Spiteful
Vengeful
Genocidal
Murderous
Sexist
Vindictive

The list goes on.

Read the Old Testament, it's quite shocking actually.

And before any Christain says, this is not Christianity, this is not about Christ, this is about God, and the God of the Old Testament is YOUR God.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Gee Kennas, now you`re talking about the thoughts and actions of human beings.

 

[Sean K]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Gee Kennas, now you`re talking about the thoughts and actions of human beings.

LOL. Well, that's how you would describe the God in the Old Testament.

I'm glad we don't have that God hanging about in Australia and we have the modern Christian version. He's a much nicer chap.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

LOL. Well, that's how you would describe the God in the Old Testament.

I'm glad we don't have that God hanging about in Australia and we have the modern Christian version. He's a much nicer chap.

Not if he's anything like George Pell.

 

[Sean K]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Not if he's anything like George Pell.

Yep, just a generalisation. There's a lot more loving with the Christian God. Or, is it Christ who does the loving, and God is still evil.

I'd obviously prefer we were just loving and caring without needing Christ as a motivation to do it. But maybe we all need idols, or examples to model our lives on? Nowadays it's rock stars and movie stars, or footballers.

We all need models of some sort....

 

[wayneL]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Yep, just a generalisation. There's a lot more loving with the Christian God. Or, is it Christ who does the loving, and God is still evil.

I'd obviously prefer we were just loving and caring without needing Christ as a motivation to do it. But maybe we all need idols, or examples to model our lives on? Nowadays it's rock stars and movie stars, or footballers.

We all need models of some sort....

Yes, it's a shame it's not Ma & Pa though...

...or maybe not, as the case may be.