Religion IS crazy!

[chops_a_must]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Well, technically, an atheist believes there isn't a GOD... (i.e a definite position), means it might as well be a religion.

not sure about agnostic... in its purest form, NO, it can't be a religion, as an agnostic suspends judgement or is indifferent to the presence or lack there of, of God. But when an agnostic simply rejects the probability of God full stop, then for all intents and purposes... that is the same as an athiest.

If an agnostic rejects the idea of God, they are an atheist full stop. I am 99% sure in myself there is no god, certainly not in the western form anyway. Therefore I am agnostic, because no presented format for god has any merit, apart from 2 ideas, which aren't congruent with western religion - but it is possible.

The word religion isn't the one you are reaching for, it's dogma, or dogmatic that you are.

 

[Sean K]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Sorry that this has turned into a religion bashing exercise at times, I didn't really intend that.

Your everyday Christain, or Muslim, or whatever, is just a regular person.

It was the extremes of religion that I wanted to highlight that just seem to make no sence in the modern world.

I think commandment 10, and not coverting thy neighbours slaves is a pretty nice example. lol

In regard to being and Atheist or Agnostic, you need to define what it is you're saying does or does not exist. I believe 'God' with a big G is just a human invention that has developed over the years. When you trace the history of God, he was previously just one of the Elohim, named Yahweh, YHWH, and the supreme God was actually El. Then you can trace a whole bunch of other supreme gods around this era, right back to Marduk, who was probably the first 'supreme' god in the Enuma Elis. But they are gods with a little g. It's only the Abrahamic monotheastic religions that have a God with a capital G, and that is the one we westerners all pray to. He doesn't exist. It's all myth and metaphor to describe the indescribable, and unknowable.

Fancy praying 5 times a day to a myth. Now that's crazy!!

Oooop, that's a regular Muslim.

Sorry, but it is a bit odd from this side of the fence.

 

[kgee]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

God's that bloke with the big white beard that hangs out in the clouds right?
Mate whats the problem stop giving him a hard time I was having a beer with him the other day, nothing wrong with the bloke

 

[bunyip]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Interesting topic.
I am not a practising Christian but I did volunteer work as a counsellor, for a year or so, for a Catholic-based drop-in centre for the homeless and people with a myriad of issues.
At times this was a dangerous environment. For me this was only occasional. for regular staff it was continous. I remember, on one occasion, "calming" a huge guy in a drug-induced state for over an hour, knowing he had needles and knives on him, while waiting for the police to arrive.
The paid staff worked for pretty much the minimum wage. I never once heard religion raised as an offer or as an issue. They had no monetary ambitions other than keeping food on the family table. Their entire focus was on the difficult task of how best to help others. Entirely selfless and based on the welfare of others.
There are good people everywhere.

Very true. Those of us who are critical of religion, myself included, need to acknowledge that there's a good side to religion as well. Nowhere is that good side more evident than in religions doing volunteer work for needy people such as druggies, the homeless, victims of natural disasters, or whatever.

 

[Sean K]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Very true. Those of us who are critical of religion, myself included, need to acknowledge that there's a good side to religion as well. Nowhere is that good side more evident than in religions doing volunteer work for needy people such as druggies, the homeless, victims of natural disasters, or whatever.

I agree, that's all great, but is it religion being good, or just people being good?

 

[nioka]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

I agree, that's all great, but is it religion being good, or just people being good?

It is people being good but they are that way through, and because of, their religious upbringing or beliefs.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

I agree, that's all great, but is it religion being good, or just people being good?

That's a good question. There is lots of evidence of virtuous behaviour outside of religion. 2,500 years age Lao Tzu wrote the Tao Te Ching, before Taoism turned itself into a religion.

Anyone who follows the philosophical Tao would be a "good person". Nuttin' religious about it.IMO

 

[Sean K]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

It is people being good but they are that way through, and because of, their religious upbringing or beliefs.

I think we'll talk this one around in circles till the cows come home.

 

[nioka]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

I think we'll talk this one around in circles till the cows come home.

Many years ago my grandmother told me that the best way to get into an argument and lose friends was to talk religion or politics and if they were combined it was dynamite. I'm afraid I never learnt to back off from either. However it never hurts to find out what the other person thinks and to listen to their points of view.

 

[bassmanpete]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nioka
It is people being good but they are that way through, and because of, their religious upbringing or beliefs.


I think we'll talk this one around in circles till the cows come home.

I think you're right kennas, but I have to say that I totally disagree with nioka's statement above, good people will be good with or without religion.

 

[bunyip]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

I completely disagree that religion is a prerequisite for having a decent moral compass.

One saying, which I think comes from the Bible, though, is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Pretty much covers most things really.

I don't care if people want to go to a church, sing songs, pray, chant, etc, (even taking communion which seems pretty silly to me). But I do object when those people tell me I am missing out, living an immoral existence, or otherwise failing to appreciate the reality of life, if I don't want to do the same.

And to those ghastly people who so persistently come knocking at the door, especially when they trail little kids with them, I'd suggest they spend their time more constructively. Might just 'accidentally' let the dog out next time I see them coming.

Ah yes, the door knockers....Jehovah's Witnesses mostly - the same religion who will let their loved ones die, rather than allow them to have a life-saving blood transfusion.

I once asked them if they believed in the well known bible quotation of 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. I told them that my interpretation of this was that we should treat others with the same consideration we expect ourselves.
As you'd expect, they said yes, they very much believed in treating others with consideration.
So I said "OK.....some of the people whose doors you knock on may be night shift workers who sleep during the day. Some of them may be parents who are exhausted after being up all night with a sick child. Some of them may be family people in the middle of a family reunion with loved ones they haven't seen for months or years.
Some of them may be sick, or old and frail, or in the middle of some personal crisis, or grieving over a death in the family. Or whatever.
And you people, completely uninvited, come knocking on their door, waking them up or disrupting their lives, so that you can give them your completely uninvited views on god and religion and on how they should be running their lives.
Now, do you really think you're showing consideration for other people? Is that the way you'd like to be treated yourself? What if each one of these people whose doors you knock on, were to come uninvited to your house and knock on your door and start asking you what you think of the world, and giving you their views that you never asked for. Would you perhaps consider their behaviour to be inconsiderate?

Generally they don't have very good answers when confronted in that way.

 

[Sean K]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Many years ago my grandmother told me that the best way to get into an argument and lose friends was to talk religion or politics and if they were combined it was dynamite. I'm afraid I never learnt to back off from either. However it never hurts to find out what the other person thinks and to listen to their points of view.

Well, my position is that culture made religious laws, not the other way around. So, it's people who are good first.

If you are very religious, the rules in the book were actually handed down by God, or Angels, and then later 'tweeked' at some big conferences between very important men. So, religion comes first in this case.

 

[Judd]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

It is people being good but they are that way through, and because of, their religious upbringing or beliefs.

Nope. You are either born good or born bad. Religion has nothing to do with it. Upbringing and religious beliefs may moderate or inhibit poor behavior but they are not the cause of underlying behavior - personality is.

Cheers

 

[disarray]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

disagree judd, religion can provide a strong moral framework to keep some people on the track where they would otherwise stray, just as religion can get normal people to strap bombs to themselves and blow up a marketplace. it cuts both ways.

/agree with the culture determining religion thing though

 

[Sean K]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

agree with the culture determining religion thing though

Yep, another supporting point to this is that if it wasn't the case, why do we have different religions?

Although, I'm quite sure God was spot on when he said thou shalt not covert they neighbours donkey.

 

[Mofra]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Nope. You are either born good or born bad. Religion has nothing to do with it. Upbringing and religious beliefs may moderate or inhibit poor behavior but they are not the cause of underlying behavior - personality is.

Just personality? Circumstance is a very strong inhibitor to behavior.
Crime statistics for example are very closely intwined with poverty & education levels. Neither are an excuse, but there is a strong statistic slant towards circumstance/upbringing and lawful behavior.

Either way I don't beleive religion is the sole (or even the underlying cause of most) altruistic behavior. Ther are countless examples of agnostic & atheist people who perform selfless acts to help people they do not know.

 

[Surly]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Nope. You are either born good or born bad. Religion has nothing to do with it. Upbringing and religious beliefs may moderate or inhibit poor behavior but they are not the cause of underlying behavior - personality is.

Cheers

Apparently, the concept of original sin as applied to varying degrees in christian belief has us all born evil Judd with a life of prayer and good deed hopefully enough to rectify our evil ways and allow our soul passage into heaven.

Google Pelagius and Original Sin for more insight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism

"Pelagianism is a theological theory named after Pelagius (ca. 354 – ca. 420/440). It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature (which God called very good), and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid. Thus, Adam's sin was "to set a bad example" for his progeny, but his actions did not have the other consequences imputed to Original Sin. Pelagianism views the role of Jesus as "setting a good example" for the rest of humanity (thus counteracting Adam's bad example). In short, humanity has full control, and thus full responsibility, for its own salvation in addition to full responsibility for every sin (the latter insisted upon by both proponents and opponents of Pelagianism). According to Pelagian doctrine, because humanity does not require God's grace for salvation (beyond the creation of will),[1] Jesus' execution is devoid of the redemptive quality ascribed to it by orthodox Christian theology."

cheers
Surly

 

[bunyip]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

I agree, that's all great, but is it religion being good, or just people being good?

Maybe a bit of both. The point is that some religions put considerable time, effort and expense into helping others. And that should be acknowledged and appreciated, particularly by those of us who are not backward in voicing our criticism of religions.
In spite of my criticism of religion generally, I have to say that I've found most religious people to be basically pretty decent at heart. Sure there are exceptions, including some that are out and out rotten. But generally, I find religious people to be OK.

 

[bunyip]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Apparently, the concept of original sin as applied to varying degrees in christian belief has us all born evil Judd with a life of prayer and good deed hopefully enough to rectify our evil ways and allow our soul passage into heaven.

Surly

That's one of the things about Christianity that really gets up my nose.......it constantly tries to paint me as a sinner who should forever be praying for forgiveness and redemption.
Sounds like a lot of nonsense to someone like me who has always conducted his life with honesty and integrity. Not that I'm faultless....nobody is....but I've never been a sinner in the true sense of the word, and I never will be.

On a lighter note......A few weeks ago I saw written on the notice board of a church....'THIS CHURCH IS NOT FULL OF HYPOCRITES - WE ALWAYS HAVE ROOM FOR A FEW MORE'.
Good to see that someone in that particular congregation has a sense of humour!

 

[nioka]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

I think you're right kennas, but I have to say that I totally disagree with nioka's statement above, good people will be good with or without religion.

Now you are quoting me out of context. I'm not suggesting that you have to be religious to be a good person. The discussion at that time was about religious organisations and their voluntary work. Good people will be good with or without religion but it is a religious upbringing that will encourage there to be more good people and help those that may be "bad" to become better people.
A good example was the recent pope's visit. The young had a ball without sex, drugs and rock and roll. Had it been a rock fest with 400,000 young people together I'm sure there would have been a lot more young lives needing repair at the end of the session.