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Religion IS crazy!

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Re: Religion gone crazy!

nioka said:
It is people being good but they are that way through, and because of, their religious upbringing or beliefs.
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Disagree, Nioka. I don't claim to be 'good' but for most of my adult life, even when working full time, I've volunteered in various capacities helping people with whom I have no connection in any personal sense. I don't have religious beliefs, nor was I brought up in a religious environment (other than a few ghastly visits to Sunday School as a kid).

And of all the fellow volunteers I know, none of them is motivated by any religious inspiration, but rather a belief that any community is about as good as the contributions of its members.
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

nioka said:
Now you are quoting me out of context. I'm not suggesting that you have to be religious to be a good person. The discussion at that time was about religious organisations and their voluntary work. Good people will be good with or without religion but it is a religious upbringing that will encourage there to be more good people and help those that may be "bad" to become better people.
A good example was the recent pope's visit. The young had a ball without sex, drugs and rock and roll. Had it been a rock fest with 400,000 young people together I'm sure there would have been a lot more young lives needing repair at the end of the session.
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Well, I'm not so sure there was no sex involved among the young people at that festival. I've known a few Catholic girls who were hot little numbers. And very few young blokes, Catholic or otherwise, will turn down the opportunity if it arises.
Some of them were giving the booze a fair sort of a nudge.
And it wouldn't surprise me if a joint or two was smoked, either.

But basically I agree with what Nioka is saying.....their general behaviour was pretty darn good, certainly far better than you'd see at a rock concert or a schoolies celebration or most other events involving young people.
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

Julia said:
Disagree, Nioka. I don't claim to be 'good' but for most of my adult life, even when working full time, I've volunteered in various capacities helping people with whom I have no connection in any personal sense. I don't have religious beliefs, nor was I brought up in a religious environment (other than a few ghastly visits to Sunday School as a kid).

And of all the fellow volunteers I know, none of them is motivated by any religious inspiration, but rather a belief that any community is about as good as the contributions of its members.
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If you check all the discussion you will see that I agree with you. You don't have to be religious to be good . I agree (for about the fouth time). I am stating facts in relation to suggestions that religious people only help others to try and convert them, that religious people are crazy, that religious people are fanatics etc, etc.
Actually I am not a very religious person myself. My visits to church are usually for a funeral or a wedding. However I am open minded. I have had some unique experiences that leave me wondering. One I described on another thread which I cant find at the moment but it defies logical explanation.
Being brought up in a presbyterian family I was certainly taught the difference between right and wrong and I thank my parents for that. I have a son in law who is a devout catholic. He would be an inspiration to most as a good person yet he has never pushed his religion on myself or my daughter except for asking that our grand daughters attended the catholic church.
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

One aspect of this discussion I feel a bit uncomfortable about is the sense of intellectual superiority implicit in the posts from some of the confirmed atheists. There is a derision and denigration towards those who do have religious beliefs which would get well and truly shouted down were it to be flowing in the other direction. There are plenty of highly intelligent and well educated people who have religious beliefs.

I think what I'm feeling here is that in our mostly secular society it probably takes quite a bit of courage to openly state religious affiliations, especially on a thread like this. Reminds me rather of the way we tend to behave towards other minority groups, e.g. homosexuals, that we can't simply let people be whatever they want to be.

Just a proviso here: the sentiments expressed above in no way should suggest acceptance of the hypocrisy displayed by the hierarchy of most of the churches. Hmm, and maybe there also needs to be a sub-clause for fundamentalist Christian politicians.
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

I watched a program once where they had done a study of people attitudes on various topics.

Put a group of people in a room and ask for their opinions on a topic

Invariably there would be a spectrum of views

Leave them alone for a few hours and let them discuss it

Without fail, the group would become very polarized and adversarial, dividing into two sub-groups taking opposite and extreme views to each other.

It showed that when there is debate on a topic, folks will separate themselves into extreme groups.

So on the topic of religion, a much debated topic, most people will go to extremes - atheism or religious dogma - with very few people maintaining moderate or "in between" views.

But the only truly intellectual position in my humble opinion is agnosticism as this leaves the door open for any discovery/revelation, and awaits conclusive proof one way or the other.

It's right to challenge religion on the basis of logic, but that really only serves to dis the practice, it doesn't disprove some.... err whatever people want to call it.

From where I stand, it's nice to be somewhere in the middle. I see faults of logic on both sides (and conveniently ignore my own :D). I personally find it totally cool to be open to anything and everything and also to be be able to toss anything I like, picking up bits of useful philosophy along the way.

That article had a bit toooo much feeling attached to it IMO. The woman has emotional baggage (and I fully accept it was handed to her by the church) that was visible between the otherwise excellent logic, ergo, not completely balanced.

Just my 2c
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

WayneL, I think you'll find that most atheists' thinking goes along the lines of "There's no evidence for a god, therefore I choose to believe there isn't one. Show me some hard evidence and I could well change my mind."

Hard evidence does NOT include what appears to be the face of Jesus in a toasted cheese sandwich or other such cases of pareidolia. :)
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

don't lump athiests in with the pantheists.

At the heart of pantheism is reverence of the universe as the ultimate focus of reverence, and for the natural earth as sacred.

Scientific or Natural Pantheism - Pan for short - has a naturalistic approach which simply accepts and reveres the universe and nature just as they are, and promotes an ethic of respect for human and animal rights and for lifestyles that sustain rather than destroy the environment.
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Re: Religion gone crazy!

nioka said:
. However I am open minded. I have had some unique experiences that leave me wondering. One I described on another thread which I cant find at the moment but it defies logical explanation.
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Found it. Check out post No 114 in the thread "Recent Events Beyond Earth"

It may not be proof but it must make even a sceptic think twice. (and the story is 100% true).

( maybe the mods could add the post I refer to here)
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

bassmanpete said:
WayneL, I think you'll find that most atheists' thinking goes along the lines of "There's no evidence for a god, therefore I choose to believe there isn't one. Show me some hard evidence and I could well change my mind."

Hard evidence does NOT include what appears to be the face of Jesus in a toasted cheese sandwich or other such cases of pareidolia. :)
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You're right, toasted cheese sangas are not good enough evidence. :)

However, the Bible says that Creation itself is enough evidence for us to know there is a Creator. Evidence within us and without, is enough to leave us guilty should we neglect or supress it.
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

bassmanpete said:
WayneL, I think you'll find that most atheists' thinking goes along the lines of "There's no evidence for a god, therefore I choose to believe there isn't one. Show me some hard evidence and I could well change my mind."

Hard evidence does NOT include what appears to be the face of Jesus in a toasted cheese sandwich or other such cases of pareidolia. :)
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Check my post above. More than an image on a sandwich.I don't claim it as hard evedence but ?????
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

wayneL said:
So on the topic of religion, a much debated topic, most people will go to extremes - atheism or religious dogma - with very few people maintaining moderate or "in between" views.

But the only truly intellectual position in my humble opinion is agnosticism as this leaves the door open for any discovery/revelation, and awaits conclusive proof one way or the other.


Just my 2c
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Agnostiticism is supposed to be the middle ground between atheism and thiesm although really, you either believe something or you don`t.

Theism and atheism refer to belief and lack of respectively, while gnosticism and agnosticism refer to knowledge and lack of.
If you're agnostic, you need to clarify what you are agnostic about.

Either you`re an agnostic athiest or an agnostic theist ..... or fundamental to the extreme one way or another! :2twocents
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

Julia said:
One aspect of this discussion I feel a bit uncomfortable about is the sense of intellectual superiority implicit in the posts from some of the confirmed atheists. There is a derision and denigration towards those who do have religious beliefs which would get well and truly shouted down were it to be flowing in the other direction. There are plenty of highly intelligent and well educated people who have religious beliefs.
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While it's true that there are plenty of intelligent, educated people who have religious beliefs, it's also true that usually the more educated or intelligent you are - the more likely you are to abandon religion.

Your impression of a sense of atheistic intellectual superiority I think comes from the fact that most atheists you're exposed to are the vocal ones. They've gone through the PRATT's presented by religious people and had to put up with so much ignorance about basic concepts like evolution that it's hard not to feel like you're debating an inferior in some ways.

Julia said:
I think what I'm feeling here is that in our mostly secular society it probably takes quite a bit of courage to openly state religious affiliations, especially on a thread like this.
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Australia is not "mostly secular". The latest census figures I can get my hands on (2006) state that well over 60% of Australians identify as Christians, not to mention any other religion. Maybe you just walk in more educated circles where the theists taper off?
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

wayneL said:
But the only truly intellectual position in my humble opinion is agnosticism as this leaves the door open for any discovery/revelation, and awaits conclusive proof one way or the other.
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Agree. I won't be holding my breath waiting for the proof, though.


That article had a bit toooo much feeling attached to it IMO. The woman has emotional baggage (and I fully accept it was handed to her by the church) that was visible between the otherwise excellent logic, ergo, not completely balanced.
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Again, agree. I just don't personally see any need to poke, prod or otherwise deride anyone's belief system as long as it doesn't affect me or hurt or abuse children.

The bit I did like in Ms Deveny's article was:

I don't care what people believe in, but I do care that religion impacts on political discourse, public policy and that it stunts the ability of people to think for themselves and question. And that it kills people and causes suffering. But most of all I care that the invisible electric fences that are wired in the minds of children brainwashed by religion are difficult to remove. And impossible if you don't even know they're there.
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Hence my earlier expressed loathing of the Jehovah's Witness devotees carting little kids around with them in their tedious door to door proseltyzing.
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

JellySausage said:
While it's true that there are plenty of intelligent, educated people who have religious beliefs, it's also true that usually the more educated or intelligent you are - the more likely you are to abandon religion.

Your impression of a sense of atheistic intellectual superiority I think comes from the fact that most atheists you're exposed to are the vocal ones. They've gone through the PRATT's presented by religious people and had to put up with so much ignorance about basic concepts like evolution that it's hard not to feel like you're debating an inferior in some ways.
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OK, good reasoning. I just don't much like the complete dismissal of every person who nurtures a belief in some sort of God as a total fool.





Australia is not "mostly secular". The latest census figures I can get my hands on (2006) state that well over 60% of Australians identify as Christians, not to mention any other religion. Maybe you just walk in more educated circles where the theists taper off?
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I doubt that I walk in especially educated circles.

I accept your quoted statistic above, though it does somewhat surprise me.
Of those, though, I'd be surprised if many of them were actually practising Christians. e.g. I know that both my parents would have ticked the box for "Christian" in any Census papers, but neither were remotely interested in participating in any religious activities.
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

bassmanpete said:
WayneL, I think you'll find that most atheists' thinking goes along the lines of "There's no evidence for a god, therefore I choose to believe there isn't one. Show me some hard evidence and I could well change my mind."

Hard evidence does NOT include what appears to be the face of Jesus in a toasted cheese sandwich or other such cases of pareidolia. :)
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But there's those words - "choose to believe"

A true agnostic says I just don't know, otherwise you're an atheist.
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

spooly74 said:
Agnostiticism is supposed to be the middle ground between atheism and thiesm although really, you either believe something or you don`t.

:2twocents
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Wrong.
If a person has no proof that God does or does not exist, then it's quite reasonable for that person to say "Maybe God exists and maybe he doesn't....I don't have an opinion either way...I neither believe nor disbelieve it".
 
Re: Religion gone crazy!

I was thinking during physical exercise that air was indeed a wonderful thing.I looked at the plants and thought how convenient it was for them to create oxygen from carbon dioxide in a plants life cycle.

I thought of the sun and how the light and heat from it is easily adapted to.I thought of the gravitational forces on my body and it was just right.

Because I thought, so it was.



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