Religion IS crazy!

[luutzu]

Quite well, computers don't use numerals at all, they use on/off states. Trust me on this because you are entering my territory. You can look up Boolean algebra to get an understanding. There are other programming mathematics too like hex, octal, etc

Don't know, just saw the Matrix and its 0 and 1... that's how digital and computing translate all the codes and nulls right? I never took a course in Computing.

And why would you mistake pre Islamic Mediterranean people with religion and suggest our numerals are Arabic, when they are actually roughly based on pre christian Indian ? Hint the system starts with "Bra" and ends with "hmi" ... see computer science does have some merit afterall.

The Indian (not the ones Columbus got lost and "discover") invented the 0 - their philosophy has the concept of nothingness... mix it with the pre-Islamic Arabs/ME mathematicians and it's much smarter than the Roman numerals, whose only use seem to be in sequels to movies See, documentaries does have its merits.

Oh! How will your Christian computer understand the off state without first understanding the concept of nothingness? God have always existed and it took the Indian to see and define zero. No zero will mean it will always be on for you guys.

That's like saying Edison invented the lightbulb, when infact he actually bought the idea off someone else. The Koreans had a press before Gutenburg, and the Chinese a few bob each way before, but Gutenburg managed to mechanise/automate the process, something that the Koreans, Arabs and Chinese failed to do, even after generations of having the jump on the idea = engineering and development

The Chinese didn't just invent the paper for Guttenberg to print on. They have also invented printing presses and from a doco i saw had also massed produced all kind of books. So beside secret martial arts manuscripts and calligraphy, have also done the printing - and put it to more useful stuff than the Bible about some fairies and magical castles in the sky... ne ne...

First up remember where East meets West.

Do you really think that Europe was so isolated it would not know what sails someone is using in the Mediterranean and needs some wanderer in a turban to front up to a bloke in Europe and say "hey I have a trianglular piece of cloth that will do away with your phoenician sheets?" Anyway Chris the Italian's boat was a Portuguese invention called the Caravel and it is they who developed the idea not some desert wander's. You think Portugal was Islamic maybe?

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The Portuguese and Spaniards were part of the Islamic empire way back then right? Was conquered until the 13th century when the Mongolian kind messed things up for the Muslims a bit.

Alan Turing was no doubt bright, but he didn't invent the computer. Once again do you really think the German's didn't have a handle on computing too ....look at the Enigma machine, look at their V2 rockets, their war machine in general and how they put them into practice before Alan could say snap.

Alan Mathison Turing, OBE, FRS (/ˈtjʊərɪŋ/; 23 June 1912 – 7 June 1954) was a British pioneering computer scientist, mathematician, logician, cryptanalyst and theoretical biologist. He was highly influential in the development of computer science, providing a formalisation of the concepts of algorithm and computation with the Turing machine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

Yea, the German made good use of IBM's slot card computing against certain groups of undesirables and war planning and logistics too I bet.

But without Turing's code breaking machine, it would have taken thousands or millions of years to crack the Enigma though right?

Anyway, point was... the advanced and noble Christian values Harris was on about led to the suicide of one of its heroes at the age of 41. Maybe giving a guy like Turing a couple of decade during peace time in the age of electronics and transitors... might have resulted in something useful than an early and painful death... not just to Turing but to thousands of other British citizens.

1 to me, no zero to Harris

You're going to have to come up with something more concrete than that luutzu. It's like saying I thought up an idea in my sleep and did nothing with it, but because Rumpole realised into reality after seeing a need I should get the cudos.

Bad analogy.

The Chinese invented paper, got the ink, got the block printing, printed books with it too... Guttenberg did the same but only a few centuries later and got all the kudos as though he invented printing and mass production of books.

The Arab sailors invented the triangular sails... with it European ships could travel faster and navigate better. Their astronomy and all those books they translated made it possible to get out of the Dark Ages.

Those are more than an idea they had in their sleeps I'd say.

----

What are we on about again?

That long dead people of your shades are better than long dead people of my shade?

Anyway, Harris is a stooge to his country's propaganda. That's all fine and all understandable... we all believe in the nobility and superiority of our own. But to call such people Liberal or an Intellectual offend reality and those who truly are a pain in the behind of everyone because they're always objective and rational and will not apologise for crimes and cruelty.

 

[SirRumpole]

I am not excusing anyone, you are trying to excuse Christianity.

I'm not I'm saying Islam is a far worse global problem , do you agree or not ?

I point you to where I said the 3 religions are flawed but the majority of the savagery is being done by Muslims. Do you agree or not ?

 

[luutzu]

A very bad thing happened to Turing, but the fact is that we don't today have people killing other people on the streets in the name of Christianity.

The ISIS people and their followers are murdering, raping and destroying civilisation in the name of Islam and no matter how you try to deflect those actions off onto Judaism or Christianity its the Islamic culture that says they have the right to do what they are doing, therefore Islam has to change its culture.

I don't think you need God to tell you to fight back when foreign invaders take over your country.

We can argue whether what the US and the Coalition of the Willing are doing in the ME is liberating or invading, to the people that live there, definitely sure there's little doubt among most of them.

And it's very hard to win the debate about Islam and violence in the ME when they have always been Muslim before our liberation and there's little terrorism then but once our boots are on the ground kicking doors and blowing up civil infrastructure and utilities, terrorism and violence and carnage shot way way up.

So was Islam responsible for the relative peace (or at least stability) before Operation Iraqi Freedom or Operation Enduring Freedom and also responsible for the rise of ISIS and terrorists or is it only responsible for the bad stuff but the good stuff was due to Saddam.

---

When NATO or Russia or US or China drop a bomb or lock up people or torture and kill them... do we say it's Christianity that causes them to do it, or Atheism that causes it, or depends on whose alliance we're on one country's killing is acceptable while another is not?

 

[Value Collector]

I'm not I'm saying Islam is a far worse global problem , do you agree or not ?

I point you to where I said the 3 religions are flawed but the majority of the savagery is being done by Muslims. Do you agree or not ?

Yes, but only because our society has become more developed and less superstitious, give under developed and superstitious societies a bible instead of a Qu'ran and they are just as quick to do messed up things, Did you see the videos I uploaded of Christians in Africa burning their local witch doctors etc.

My beef is not that you point out Islams bad points, But that you excuse Christianity, when if you put it in the similar situations, the same results happen.

You tend to use every example you see of a Muslim doing something bad as evidence against Islam, but all the Christian Inspired things you write off as Isolated incidents, terrorists or somethings else.

In general the more educated a society gets, the less religious it becomes and the less bad stuff happens, it just so happens that Islam is biggest in under developed nations and nations that cling to superstition over real facts.

 

[luutzu]

I'm not I'm saying Islam is a far worse global problem , do you agree or not ?

I point you to where I said the 3 religions are flawed but the majority of the savagery is being done by Muslims. Do you agree or not ?

How did you reach that conclusion?

Are the US and Western allies considered Christians or not?

Are terrorist groups in Muslim countries considered the ebodiment of Islam or are they merely warlords and psychopath or freedom fighters or bad terrorists or our kind of terrorists.

If you blow up a pharmaceutical factory in a poor country and because of that no medicines can be provided to the population and a few hundred thousand die... did you just kill those few hundred thousands or you merely blew up the factory?

If you start a war on false pretense, do it for grand strategy and God and glory and money... and that lead to a whole lot of death and destruction a decade or two after. Were you responsible for all those death and destruction or should you just apologise for the one "false" or bad intel?

The Nuremberg trial define war crimes and hang a lot of Nazis for crime against humanity. Should we also apply the same definition and the same rules to ourselves as to the terrorists?



If we buy the bs about superior this and inferior that; good 'r us and evil 'r them... it will lead to a whole lot of death and destruction we're somewhat understand and comfortable with. While that's fine when we are the top dog, it does have its blowbacks and in the end, it's plebs like us and our children, plebs like them and their children that pay the price - if not with blood then with treasure and lost opportunities.

 

[SirRumpole]

Are the US and Western allies considered Christians or not?

Not necessarily. They are the representatives of a secular society. Some may be Christians, some Muslims, some atheists, the point is they do not REPRESENT Christianity and what they do is not done in the name of Christianity.

The Muslims want caliphates that are ruled by Islamic law without freedom of representation, freedom of speech etc.

Which sort of country would you prefer to live in ?

 

[SirRumpole]

My beef is not that you point out Islams bad points, But that you excuse Christianity, when if you put it in the similar situations, the same results happen.

I don't particularly care about Christianity or any other religion I would prefer they all went away. But if its a choice between getting visited by some Jehovas Witnesses every month who give me something to read and then go away or taking the risk of being shot by some Muslim fanatic while I'm walking down the street then I know which of those I would prefer.

 

[Value Collector]

I don't particularly care about Christianity or any other religion I would prefer they all went away. But if its a choice between getting visited by some Jehovas Witnesses every month who give me something to read and then go away or taking the risk of being shot by some Muslim fanatic while I'm walking down the street then I know which of those I would prefer.

Yeah, but no doubt you would prefer getting visited by a moderate Muslim than be shot by a Christian fanatic, you are making the mistake of always comparing moderate Christians with fanatic Muslims.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yeah, but no doubt you would prefer getting visited by a moderate Muslim than be shot by a Christian fanatic, you are making the mistake of always comparing moderate Christians with fanatic Muslims.

That's the way it is in this country today, the Christians are basically docile but with Muslims you never know what you'll get. How long since a Christian in this country murdered someone at random in the name of Christianity ?

My preference is based on evidence, yours is obviously based on fantasy.

 

[luutzu]

Not necessarily. They are the representatives of a secular society. Some may be Christians, some Muslims, some atheists, the point is they do not REPRESENT Christianity and what they do is not done in the name of Christianity.

The Muslims want caliphates that are ruled by Islamic law without freedom of representation, freedom of speech etc.

Which sort of country would you prefer to live in ?

If wanting to establish an empire is such a bad thing, what do you call the US and its 800+ military bases all over the place? Or the Russians with their dozen or so. Do as we say not as we do?

We're not too happy with China building a few bases, and have every reason to be concern... but that's the pot calling the kettle black kind of stuff.

Have said it before... I heard from Scahill that the ISIS we hear about are just a small part of their coalition. Those are the crazy religious lunatics... the other coalition are also crazy lunatics but without the religion - just saw opportunities in a broken country and being human and psychotic or patriotic or whatever they decided to start an army and get some.

I'm not a pacifist and of course prefer to live in a secular, open and democratic society that Australia is... But we shouldn't buy into this fighting evil and getting them over there before they get us here. That is just rubbish and our involvement in foreign adventures increase insecurity and put our people and our interests at greater risk than if we devote those resources to infrastructure and training etc.

We're taking this narrative about clashes of civilisation too seriously. It's just propaganda... and in taking it seriously, innocent people overseas get blown up now and then, innocent people at home who share the same religion and "civilisation" as the evil ones get swear at, hit and thrown to the ground now and then.

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The ME has a lot a lot of oil and gas; it's situated between East and West; it controls the Suez canal where trade and goods either go there or go around Africa to reach Europe.

So those with the biggest muscle will want to control it. If they don't others will. It's just clashes of empires, not civilisation. Everything else we hear - democracy, nation-building, evil Muslims - are all propaganda.

So we got to ask ourselves... does our standard of living depends on our arms being there? Controling the tap and who goes what and when... Can our national interests and the interests of our people be advanced without the military?

The US have spent maybe $3 Trillion in the ME since Afghanistan.

Those $3T (and our dead) have to be paid for by the riches and leverage we get from controlling it. That and it's paid for by a few million dead Arabs in past 15 years.

Is it worth it? Are we richer for it financially? Are we safer as a country and a people? Nope.

So might need to rethink foreign policy then?

What if we were to spend $1Trillion on ourselves, the other $1Trillion we use as carrots to the Arabs to trade with them, the other $1 Trillion we put away for a rainy China rising day...

But nope... they're evil, we're the good guys trying to save them from their evil ways and have t do a lot of killing to eventually make it happen.

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The South China Sea is as important, if not more, to its national interests than the ME is to Western interests.

With China now getting richer and its military becoming more sophisticated, and with another 200 million or so new Chinese in another couple decades... you bet your life China will dominate the SCS and the East China Sea. To gain both the energy, fisheries resources as well as to control access and influence by other major powers in and around its backyard.

Will the US and Australia allow it? Nope. So expect proxy wars that might escalate... and if the ME keeps on the path it's one, we might have to cede one or the other but cannot have both - so it either have to go to Russia or Asia go back to China like it has for thousands of years before European imperialism.

Anyway, religion is crazy but in many instances it has very little to do with the violence and destruction we see in wars.

When two power face off each other for some interests, if religion or race could be use to explain and romanticise our heroic deeds against the barbarians, then sure why not. But in cases of civil wars, or war against similar looking people... It's over other noble causes like freeing the slaves or freeing the people from tyranny etc. etc.

 

[Tisme]

Don't know, just saw the Matrix and its 0 and 1... that's how digital and computing translate all the codes and nulls right? I never took a course in Computing.




The Indian (not the ones Columbus got lost and "discover") invented the 0 - their philosophy has the concept of nothingness... mix it with the pre-Islamic Arabs/ME mathematicians and it's much smarter than the Roman numerals, whose only use seem to be in sequels to movies See, documentaries does have its merits.

Oh! How will your Christian computer understand the off state without first understanding the concept of nothingness? God have always existed and it took the Indian to see and define zero. No zero will mean it will always be on for you guys.






The Chinese didn't just invent the paper for Guttenberg to print on. They have also invented printing presses and from a doco i saw had also massed produced all kind of books. So beside secret martial arts manuscripts and calligraphy, have also done the printing - and put it to more useful stuff than the Bible about some fairies and magical castles in the sky... ne ne...



The Portuguese and Spaniards were part of the Islamic empire way back then right? Was conquered until the 13th century when the Mongolian kind messed things up for the Muslims a bit.




Alan Mathison Turing, OBE, FRS (/ˈtjʊərɪŋ/; 23 June 1912 – 7 June 1954) was a British pioneering computer scientist, mathematician, logician, cryptanalyst and theoretical biologist. He was highly influential in the development of computer science, providing a formalisation of the concepts of algorithm and computation with the Turing machine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

Yea, the German made good use of IBM's slot card computing against certain groups of undesirables and war planning and logistics too I bet.

But without Turing's code breaking machine, it would have taken thousands or millions of years to crack the Enigma though right?

Anyway, point was... the advanced and noble Christian values Harris was on about led to the suicide of one of its heroes at the age of 41. Maybe giving a guy like Turing a couple of decade during peace time in the age of electronics and transitors... might have resulted in something useful than an early and painful death... not just to Turing but to thousands of other British citizens.

1 to me, no zero to Harris




Bad analogy.

The Chinese invented paper, got the ink, got the block printing, printed books with it too... Guttenberg did the same but only a few centuries later and got all the kudos as though he invented printing and mass production of books.

The Arab sailors invented the triangular sails... with it European ships could travel faster and navigate better. Their astronomy and all those books they translated made it possible to get out of the Dark Ages.

Those are more than an idea they had in their sleeps I'd say.

----

What are we on about again?

That long dead people of your shades are better than long dead people of my shade?

Anyway, Harris is a stooge to his country's propaganda. That's all fine and all understandable... we all believe in the nobility and superiority of our own. But to call such people Liberal or an Intellectual offend reality and those who truly are a pain in the behind of everyone because they're always objective and rational and will not apologise for crimes and cruelty.

I'm not sure you haven't validated my arguments there luutzu .... thanks for that Always the gentleman

BTW the Chinese only managed ceramic blocks around AD1000, they never managed the Gutenburg level of sophistication.

I don't believe the Chinese invented all the things they say they did. Remember my house hosted Chinese teenagers who were raised under the Maoist mantra ... they deny totally the great marches, the intellectual purges, etc and have been indoctrinated into believing the nonsense about inventing everything ...and I mean everything I am astounded at the effectiveness brain washing one side of the pacific to the other.

 

[luutzu]

I'm not sure you haven't validated my arguments there luutzu .... thanks for that Always the gentleman

BTW the Chinese only managed ceramic blocks around AD1000, they never managed the Gutenburg level of sophistication.

I don't believe the Chinese invented all the things they say they did. Remember my house hosted Chinese teenagers who were raised under the Maoist mantra ... they deny totally the great marches, the intellectual purges, etc and have been indoctrinated into believing the nonsense about inventing everything ...and I mean everything I am astounded at the effectiveness brain washing one side of the pacific to the other.

Here we go, two videos showing some 15 unique Chinese inventions.

They didn't invent everything - just many of the things that changed the world

Toilet paper. Paper money. Cheques. Fork and chopsticks. Spaghetti. Rudder for ships.

See how people I'm not related to are better than people you're not related to?

 

[Value Collector]

That's the way it is in this country today, the Christians are basically docile but with Muslims you never know what you'll get. How long since a Christian in this country murdered someone at random in the name of Christianity ?

My preference is based on evidence, yours is obviously based on fantasy.

Hence why my original comment was that you should put the words " in Australia " in front of the statement you made about Christians.

We have a lot less religious violence in Australia simply because we are a lot less religious, even most of the Christians are very loose weave Christians, so it's not that Christianity itself is the cause of the lack of violence, it's the secularisation of our population.

 

[Tink]

Your anti-Christian views are ridiculous, VC, especially since our country was built on our Christian heritage.

Maybe you prefer to live in this atheist regime, where Christianity had no influence.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...t=30357&page=5&p=888200&viewfull=1#post888200

 

[SirRumpole]

so it's not that Christianity itself is the cause of the lack of violence, it's the secularisation of our population.

Yes, and the reason that the population is not secularised in Islamic countries is Islam itself, with it's intolerance to apostates and other cultures, intolerance to any form of criticism of Islam, non separation of Church and State and it's imposition of its own theocracy via Sharia law.

Islam itself and Islamic theocracy is the problem in these countries, it rules by violence, threats, intimidation and retribution , can't you recognise that ?

 

[Value Collector]

Yes, and the reason that the population is not secularised in Islamic countries is Islam itself, with it's intolerance to apostates and other cultures, intolerance to any form of criticism of Islam, non separation of Church and State and it's imposition of its own theocracy via Sharia law.

Islam itself and Islamic theocracy is the problem in these countries, it rules by violence, threats, intimidation and retribution , can't you recognise that ?

All of the things that you mention above were part of the Christian theocracy that dominated Europe for many years also, the best way to maintain our secular progress is to reject all forms of theocracy, and continue to promote rationality over superstition, and humanism over religion. And we need to keep education secular, non secular schools should receive zero state funding.

I agree with you that Islam is problem, but we need to remember the problem is religion, all types of religion, trying to pick sides is like picking brands of cigarettes.

 

[Value Collector]

Your anti-Christian views are ridiculous, VC, especially since our country was built on our Christian heritage.

Maybe you prefer to live in this atheist regime, where Christianity had no influence.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...t=30357&page=5&p=888200&viewfull=1#post888200

I am anti all forms of superstition tink, not just Christian mythology.

and once again, atheism is not communism, as much as you would like to hang the crimes of communism on atheism, you can't, atheism is just a lack of belief in gods, nothing more than that, any thing else is something else.

 

[SirRumpole]

All of the things that you mention above were part of the Christian theocracy that dominated Europe for many years also, the best way to maintain our secular progress is to reject all forms of theocracy, and continue to promote rationality over superstition, and humanism over religion. And we need to keep education secular, non secular schools should receive zero state funding.

I agree with you that Islam is problem, but we need to remember the problem is religion, all types of religion, trying to pick sides is like picking brands of cigarettes.

I think one of the reasons that the West have mainly secular societies is that Christianity has gradually become more tolerant of criticism whereas Islam has stayed in the Middle Ages and still rules with an iron fist.

I'd agree with cutting State funding to religious schools but the unfortunate thing is that religious people vote and no politician is going to take them on, so I can see religious schools continuing to receive state funding for the foreseeable future.

 

[luutzu]

I think one of the reasons that the West have mainly secular societies is that Christianity has gradually become more tolerant of criticism whereas Islam has stayed in the Middle Ages and still rules with an iron fist.

I'd agree with cutting State funding to religious schools but the unfortunate thing is that religious people vote and no politician is going to take them on, so I can see religious schools continuing to receive state funding for the foreseeable future.

Religion do not become tolerant - it just got pushed aside and get busy building churches and leave affair of state to real bad azzes.

To say Christianity is more tolerant is like saying the English monarch were more benevolent and more democratic so they decided to give up power to the Prime Minister and his Lords and of course they give it to the lower house so they can represent the people.

It's nice to think that such kindness and good will exist, especially when it's "our" religion or "our" King and Queen... .but noooo...

Power was wrested from the British monarch and if they don't behave themselves they'll get their head chopped off by the Lords too. One of them did actually do that right? Same with Imperial Japan's Emperor and royalty after WW2... the US decided to let them keep their heads, giving the people what they want and make it appear like it's business as usual - having no power vacumn for new lords to rise up and "avenge" the Emperor etc.


Point is, religion is just like everything else... if it prove useful to statesman and warlords, it will be use and promoted and they all attend Church or Mosques or Synagogues or Temples - or all of them if that's necessary in an election. But after the curtain are drawn, it's back to social engineering and grand strategy and the usual butchery.

We the people just go to Church, pray for our loved ones and confess our sins... then back to work and start paying taxes... And if we're in a democracy, hopefully spend some time reading and thinking and voting [?] or rally to keep the bastards honest.

If we happen to live in other places less bound by such niceties, it's heads down and emptying pockets that keep the bastards happy and leave us alone for a while.

 

[Value Collector]

I think one of the reasons that the West have mainly secular societies is that Christianity has gradually become more tolerant of criticism.

Yes, I think this is because there has been an ever growing number of people that don't take it seriously, so they have lost support, so they simply don't have the power to do the things they once could and are forced to bow to secular laws.

Also science has lifted the curtain and revealed the a lot of the real workings of the universe, stuff we used to give god credit for, eg natural disasters, good seasons/bad seasons, disease, disability etc are all scary, when we have a bad drought now, we blame the weather we don't blame the heathens and go on a religious inquisition, and we don't blame witches for children born with disabilities etc. science had forced a lot of Christians to take the bible metaphorically where as they used to take it literally.

When you don't have the scientific answers you are at the mercy of superstition, often the horrible things people have done in the name of gods is not because they are bad people, they have done it from fear of gods retribution or to get on side with gods because they fear them, science took a lot of the fear away.