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Religion IS crazy!

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DB008 said:
What a great discussion. Sam Harris is spot on!
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No it wasn't. It wasn't "profound" either.

Harris is an idiot. An articulate one that claims to be an intellectual and a Liberal but really he's just one of the useful idiots one uses to spread one's propaganda. When he comes up against a real Intellectual like Chomsky, which he did a few months ago through emails, he got his **** handed to him.

We all have our biases, we may only know certain issues to a certain extend - that's why we don't claim to be experts, we merely expresses our opinions.

Harris on the other hand claims, or don't deny when introduced as, an expert on Islam and democracy and world affairs. Then spout the kind of half-baked, ill-informed, selective, biased non-sense a fifth grader would be embarrassed to speak out loud.

Example. He claim that Christianity was backward and did all the nasty stuff and religious crazy things, but it has grown up, it had seen the light and come to accept science and democracy and all the good stuff modern secular democracies have. While Islam is still backwards, still evil and there is no difference between Muhammad and ISIS.

Really?

Christianity tolerate Gays? Permit contraception? Abortion? Accept science? Bush Jr. and his Evangelical and Christian base rejected Stem Cell research. Imagine how many years it push back research into cures and how many lives it could saved.

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His debate with Chomsky goes something like this: Yea we the US take over countries, bomb terrorists and innocents get kill sometimes... but we do it for Good, we do it to save the world and bring democracy to people; ISIS and those who stand in the way of us are evil.

If you intellectualise something, you have got to be objective. If you could say stuff like that, you're either ill-informed, thinking emotionally and if not you're bought and paid for and your opinions cannot be taken seriously.
 
Example. He claim that Christianity was backward and did all the nasty stuff and religious crazy things, but it has grown up, it had seen the light and come to accept science and democracy and all the good stuff modern secular democracies have. While Islam is still backwards, still evil and there is no difference between Muhammad and ISIS.
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I think that opinion is pretty spot on. Everything is relative and Christianity is now more advanced and modern than Islam, while of course still not being totally open minded.

Islam does have a problem because there is no central leadership unlike the Catholics and Anglicans, so various factions feel free to run there own race with their own interpretations of the Koran. Which is why you have Jamir Islamir, Boko Haram, Taliban, Al Quaeda, ISIS and all the other looney breakaway groups that think their version of Islam is "purer" than anyone elses.

All those two guys were saying imo is that moderate Muslims have to stand up to the violent groups and reinterpret the Koran in peaceful terms. I think that is a fairly reasonable thing to say and they don't deserve to be called idiots for saying so.
 
SirRumpole said:
I think that opinion is pretty spot on. Everything is relative and Christianity is now more advanced and modern than Islam, while of course still not being totally open minded.

Islam does have a problem because there is no central leadership unlike the Catholics and Anglicans, so various factions feel free to run there own race with their own interpretations of the Koran. Which is why you have Jamir Islamir, Boko Haram, Taliban, Al Quaeda, ISIS and all the other looney breakaway groups that think their version of Islam is "purer" than anyone elses.

All those two guys were saying imo is that moderate Muslims have to stand up to the violent groups and reinterpret the Koran in peaceful terms. I think that is a fairly reasonable thing to say and they don't deserve to be called idiots for saying so.
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No, it's wide off the mark.

Christianity is not more advanced, it's the same crazy stuff it's always been - just like all other religions are.

Western societies are more advanced, more scientific and rational and all that.. .but it's not due to Christianity, it's due to a few smart people relegating religion and the Church to to background, out of the way - separation of Church from State.

The groups you're naming are not Islamic or Muslim, they're terrorist organisations man. That's like saying the IRA is a branch of the Catholic Church or Pauline Hanson is what Australia is about; or the Communist Parties of VN or China are Socialists.

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Harris is an idiot and a racist masquerading as an honest intellectual.

Of course we all should solve issues peacefully, of course we should not follow some book and subjugate women or hate gays or those different from us... But Harris' argument fall flat when he think it's Islam that's the problem (and so Muslims are the problem and all of them ought to abandon it and become atheists); show his prejudice when Muslim terrorists are bad when they kill people but "Christian" power dropping bombs are fine because it's done to bring peace and democracy.

How did the Christian kingdoms became so noble and enlightened?

By becoming secular. Didn't get there because the Church thought to abandon God and follow Darwin.

How would Islamic kingdoms and its people become "more" enlightened and "more" noble? Producing less terrorists? Maybe try letting them becoming secular, democratic republics that they were on! Maybe stop invading their country and see if terrorist numbers would slow down.

Harris' answer to the above is to get Muslims to be less Islamic, or abandon Islam.


Just to repeat... I don't care much for Islam or any religion... just when a person want to appear like they're an honest broker, man of the world... you have got to be more intelligent and more honest than Harris.
 
Harris' answer to the above is to get Muslims to be less Islamic, or abandon Islam.
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No , his answer if for Muslims to be less violent and criticise those among them that are violent.

I see nothing wrong with that.
 
luutzu said:
No, it's wide off the mark.

Christianity is not more advanced, it's the same crazy stuff it's always been - just like all other religions are.

Western societies are more advanced, more scientific and rational and all that.. .but it's not due to Christianity, it's due to a few smart people relegating religion and the Church to to background, out of the way - separation of Church from State.

is.
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The inconvenient truth is that you wouldn't be communicating via your PC if it wasn't for christians like Faraday, Volta, Ampere, Babbage, ....... there's even a statue out front of an Orthodox Church for Nicola Tesla


Charles Darwin studied to be a clergyman and believed in separation of church and science. Newton was a religious fanatic for the Church.


Protestant Christianity is the innovation key to much of the discovery and research that spawned the industrial revolutions and scientific innovation. Islam is a caged religion that invariably results in massacres when the beast is let out of the cage.
 
SirRumpole said:
No , his answer if for Muslims to be less violent and criticise those among them that are violent.

I see nothing wrong with that.
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We all ought to be non-violent. Harris' view is Muslims ought to be non-violent but it's fine for us to be because we're the good guys.

I haven't listen into his view on the Israel/Palestine conflict but if he's consistent I bet you he find nothing wrong with Judaism (which is fair enough) but plenty wrong with the Islam in the Palestinians.

Should we take a person seriously if they look at Israel's colonisation of Palestine and continued occupation since... if we look at that and say Judaism is messed up, look at what a few million Jews did there.

There's more than a handful of Jews who literally go through the Bible and every place that's mentioned in it they consider the land God promised them - and some of those loonies actually run the place. Should we point to them and say maybe the Jews ought to cut back on their religion? Maybe go Atheist or become Christians?

Harris look at terrorists, look at the results that war and oppression produces and sees only Islam and Muslims that's the problem.

Like I said, for you and I to say stuff like that is somewhat acceptable because we're no expert and don't claim to be; we're just mortals and got our day job. For an "intellectual" and "expert", Harris sure sound like a paid prostitute who knows where the money is.
 
Tisme said:
The inconvenient truth is that you wouldn't be communicating via your PC if it wasn't for christians like Faraday, Volta, Ampere, Babbage, ....... there's even a statue out front of an Orthodox Church for Nicola Tesla


Charles Darwin studied to be a clergyman and believed in separation of church and science. Newton was a religious fanatic for the Church.


Protestant Christianity is the innovation key to much of the discovery and research that spawned the industrial revolutions and scientific innovation. Islam is a caged religion that invariably results in massacres when the beast is let out of the cage.
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How will your Christian computer work without Arabic numerals? No 1s, and no 0s.

How will Christian scientists and scholars record their findings, have Guttenberg printed it if it weren't for Arab merchants passing on the technique to make paper they got from the Chinese? Papyrus or clay tablet? Maybe on silk?

How would Europe sail and discover the world without the triangular sail technology from the Arabs? etc. etc.

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btw, didn't Christian-based law against homosexuals in the UK kill the father of modern computing? Alan Turing led a team that cracked the Enigma, saves countless millions - some of them Christians too, and whose writings and research led to the computer... Yet, Christian law forced chemical castration on him, making it impossible for him to think or live life as God might have intended and the war hero and all time genius committed suicide - all simply because he was gay and the enlightened Christian Church won't have it.

That was in the 1950s, not the dark ages. And just to be sure things haven't changed much since, David Cameron was recently asked if Turin should be pardoned or the UK should apologised... god fearing Cameron said no, Turin broke the law.
 
Tisme said:
The inconvenient truth is that you wouldn't be communicating via your PC if it wasn't for christians like Faraday, Volta, Ampere, Babbage, ....... there's even a statue out front of an Orthodox Church for Nicola Tesla


.
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Yes, but they made their discoveries through the scientific method, not religious faith or biblical teachings or revelation from a god. they made their discoveries because they were scientists, not because they were Christian.
 
luutzu said:
How will your Christian computer work without Arabic numerals? No 1s, and no 0s.
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Quite well, computers don't use numerals at all, they use on/off states. Trust me on this because you are entering my territory.:D You can look up Boolean algebra to get an understanding. There are other programming mathematics too like hex, octal, etc

And why would you mistake pre Islamic Mediterranean people with religion and suggest our numerals are Arabic, when they are actually roughly based on pre christian Indian ? Hint the system starts with "Bra" and ends with "hmi" ... see computer science does have some merit afterall.:)

luutzu said:
How will Christian scientists and scholars record their findings, have Guttenberg printed it if it weren't for Arab merchants passing on the technique to make paper they got from the Chinese? Papyrus or clay tablet? Maybe on silk?
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That's like saying Edison invented the lightbulb, when infact he actually bought the idea off someone else. The Koreans had a press before Gutenburg, and the Chinese a few bob each way before, but Gutenburg managed to mechanise/automate the process, something that the Koreans, Arabs and Chinese failed to do, even after generations of having the jump on the idea = engineering and development


luutzu said:
How would Europe sail and discover the world without the triangular sail technology from the Arabs? etc. etc.
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First up remember where East meets West.

Do you really think that Europe was so isolated it would not know what sails someone is using in the Mediterranean and needs some wanderer in a turban to front up to a bloke in Europe and say "hey I have a trianglular piece of cloth that will do away with your phoenician sheets?" Anyway Chris the Italian's boat was a Portuguese invention called the Caravel and it is they who developed the idea not some desert wander's. You think Portugal was Islamic maybe?

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luutzu said:
btw, didn't Christian-based law against homosexuals in the UK kill the father of modern computing? Alan Turing led a team that cracked the Enigma, saves countless millions - some of them Christians too, and whose writings and research led to the computer... Yet, Christian law forced chemical castration on him, making it impossible for him to think or live life as God might have intended and the war hero and all time genius committed suicide - all simply because he was gay and the enlightened Christian Church won't have it.

That was in the 1950s, not the dark ages. And just to be sure things haven't changed much since, David Cameron was recently asked if Turin should be pardoned or the UK should apologised... god fearing Cameron said no, Turin broke the law.
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Alan Turing was no doubt bright, but he didn't invent the computer. Once again do you really think the German's didn't have a handle on computing too ....look at the Enigma machine, look at their V2 rockets, their war machine in general and how they put them into practice before Alan could say snap.


You're going to have to come up with something more concrete than that luutzu. It's like saying I thought up an idea in my sleep and did nothing with it, but because Rumpole realised into reality after seeing a need I should get the cudos.
 
Value Collector said:
Yes, but they made their discoveries through the scientific method, not religious faith or biblical teachings or revelation from a god. they made their discoveries because they were scientists, not because they were Christian.
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I can't say that is true or not VC, but I would like to think the separation of spiritual belief and science/engineering occurred. For all we know they might have been stoned on drugs and rec'd their ideas from God. ;)
 
That was in the 1950s, not the dark ages. And just to be sure things haven't changed much since, David Cameron was recently asked if Turin should be pardoned or the UK should apologised... god fearing Cameron said no, Turin broke the law.
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A very bad thing happened to Turing, but the fact is that we don't today have people killing other people on the streets in the name of Christianity.

The ISIS people and their followers are murdering, raping and destroying civilisation in the name of Islam and no matter how you try to deflect those actions off onto Judaism or Christianity its the Islamic culture that says they have the right to do what they are doing, therefore Islam has to change its culture.
 
SirRumpole said:
A very bad thing happened to Turing, but the fact is that we don't today have people killing other people on the streets in the name of Christianity.

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You need to add "In Australia" to the end of that sentence, or change it to "We don't have as many people killing in the name of christianity"

Because as we have discussed there certainly is Christians doing bad things around the world.

In fact just a couple of weeks ago two Christian parents along with some members of their church beat their son to death at their church service for his sins, the beat him over several hours and they beat him so bad that authorities first thought he had been shot, It happened in their church not "In the streets", but I think you should still be counting this stuff that is happening all the time.

 
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Value Collector said:
Because as we have discussed there certainly is Christians doing bad things around the world.
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Sure, but unless you can point out in the new Testament where it says such things are permissable then you can't really lay the fault on Christianity.

Anyway I happen to think that the 3 faiths Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all flawed but the fact is that the majority of the savagery these days is being carried out by Muslims.
 
SirRumpole said:
Sure, but unless you can point out in the new Testament where it says such things are permissable then you can't really lay the fault on Christianity.
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I don't know why you would limit yourself to part 2 of the bible story, plenty of Christian sects still refer to part 1 to justify their horrible actions. Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. matthew 5:17


But anyway, I will stick with the New testament,

No doubt they were in spired by new testament bible verses such as these.

Is 5 bible verses enough?


Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."


Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."


Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."


Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)."


Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."
 
Value Collector said:
I don't know why you would limit yourself to part 2 of the bible story, plenty of Christian sects still refer to part 1 to justify their horrible actions. Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. matthew 5:17


But anyway, I will stick with the New testament,

No doubt they were in spired by new testament bible verses such as these.

Is 5 bible verses enough?


Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."


Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."


Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."


Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)."


Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."
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Doesn't say anything about killing the child does it ?

Anyway are you trying to excuse the global barbarity of ISIS, Taliban, Boko Haram, Al Quaeda Jamar Islamir etal by these isolated cases ?
 
SirRumpole said:
Doesn't say anything about killing the child does it ?
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No, but when you beat a child with a rod, sometimes they die, So I guess its to be expected.

Anyway are you trying to excuse the global barbarity of ISIS, Taliban, Boko Haram, Al Quaeda Jamar Islamir etal by these isolated cases ?
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I am not excusing anyone, you are trying to excuse Christianity.

I can't see why you excuse Christianity of kony and the lords army, but not islam of boko haram.
 
SirRumpole said:
So you are trying to excuse the global barbarity of ISIS, Taliban, Boko Haram, Al Quaeda Jamar Islamir etal by these isolated cases ?
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I am not excusing anyone, you are trying to excuse Christianity.

I can't see why you excuse Christianity of kony and the lords army, but not islam of boko haram.
 
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