Religion IS crazy!

[SirRumpole]

Maybe things are changing in the Catholic church

Pope Francis says Catholics do not need to breed 'like rabbits'; defends Church's contraception stance

Pope Francis has said that good Catholics do not have to breed "like rabbits", defending the Church's stance on artificial contraception and appealing to the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics to practise responsible parenting.

Speaking to journalists on his flight back from his trip to the Philippines, the Pope said that he once asked a mother of seven children who was pregnant with her eighth if she wanted to "leave behind seven young orphans".

"She said, 'I trust in God.' But God gave us the means to be responsible," the Pope said.

"Some think, and excuse the term, that to be good Catholics, they must be like rabbits."

Francis said creating new life was "part of the sacrament of marriage" and in Manila strongly defended his predecessor Paul VI's outlawing of artificial contraception for Catholics in 1968.

The key teaching of the Church is responsible parenthood.
Pope Francis

Following the Church's teachings did not mean "Christians should have children one after the other", he said.

His comments came at the end of a trip to the Philippines, the Catholic Church's Asian stronghold, which last year passed a family planning law after a 15-year battle by the Church to block state-sanctioned contraception.

The law allowed the government to begin distributing free contraceptives to millions of poor Filipinos.

It was a rare loss for the Church, which has for centuries been one of the nation's most powerful institutions and continues to count more than 80 per cent of the nation's 100 million people as Catholics.
Church teaches responsible parenthood: Francis

The Pope said his predecessor had foreseen the rise in policies restricting childbirth.

"Paul VI was worried by the growth of neo-Malthusianism" (which advocates restricting the number of children the poor can have) which tried to "put a control on humanity... he was a prophet," he said.

"The key teaching of the Church is responsible parenthood. And how do we get that? By dialogue. There are marriage groups in the Church, experts and pastors."

In 2013, six months after becoming Pope, Francis urged the Church to drop its "obsession" with contraception, divorce, gays and abortion, in an interview signalling a dramatic shift in the Vatican's tone.

The Argentine Pope has brought a series of fresh perspectives to the notoriously rigid Church since he took over, signalling a strong reformist drive.

He stressed at the time that the Church's official position had not changed, but said that it should "always keep in mind the individual".

Francis' papacy - he is the first Jesuit Pope and the first from South America - has marked a series of breaks with Vatican tradition.

The Pope has become known for his humility and concern for the poor, and has reached out to non-believers and those in other religions.

He regularly picks up the phone to call ordinary people who write to him.

His latest comments are not the first this month to attract attention for their candour.

Last week when discussing the deadly attack by Islamist gunmen angered by French satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo's depiction of the Prophet Mohammed, the Pope said: "If a good friend speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched."

 

[bunyip]

Sorry I didn't reply yesterday, bunyip, but I was on a tablet which I find pretty frustrating without a proper keyboard.

I don't really have an opinion if they should be married or not, as they do have a calling from God to work for the benefit of the community.

Tink - thanks for your reply.
If their calling in life is to work for the benefit of the community, and they or the church believe that marriage and parenthood would be be a detriment to that calling, then in my opinion they're on the wrong track completely.

 

[bunyip]

Syd makes a good point though, doesn’t he Calliope? The ‘no birth control’ policy of the Catholic church does encourage Catholics to breed like rabbits, without consideration for the consequences, how they’ll look after their offspring etc.

He may be making a good point by your standards but his credibility rating on this topic is zero. The fertility rate of Catholic women in Australia is 1.3...far below the replacement rate of 2.1...so your and Syd's "rabbit' slur is wide of the mark. As for your talk of consequences, making aspersions about how they look after their children... that is just spiteful.

I made no comment on Syd’s overall credibility rating on this topic – I simply acknowledged the truth of what he’s saying about how the Vatican’s centuries-old policy of letting nature take its course in relation to human reproduction, can and does cause some Catholics to breed uncontrolled like rabbits, leading to a poverty-stricken upbringing for the children. Now, you can call that a spiteful slur if you want to, and you can attempt to justify your view by quoting figures on the fertility rates of Australian Catholic women. But you might have a different opinion if you’d worked side by side with my wife in the maternity wards of Glasgow, Scotland, and saw the often tragic results of uncontrolled reproduction among poor Scottish Catholic families. And you might have a different opinion if you’d lived in countries like the Philippines or dozens of other poor countries around the world where low income Catholics have large families because their church tells them they’re sinners if they take measures to limit the number of children they produce.
These days the problem is not so big in countries like Australia where Catholics are sufficiently enlightened to ignore the dictates of their church in this matter. But only a tiny minority of the world’s 1.2 billion Catholics live in Australia – hundreds of millions of them are spread across very poor Latin American countries where poverty is rife. The Catholic church should hang its head in shame over its callous disregard for the results of its ‘no birth control’ policy in these countries.

I consider that Catholics in Australia are much better citizens than Muslims in every way

I agree with you 100%

Perhaps you could explain to me why you are not concerned about Muslim breeding habits.Their fertility rate is well above the replacement rate, and they are not doing a good job at "looking after their offspring" either, unless you consider raising them to hate us and become jihadists, is "looking after".

Perhaps you could explain to me how you could be so bloody silly as to think I have no concerns about the breeding habits of Muslims. I assure you that I have grave concerns about every aspect of Islam and Muslims, and I thought you of all people would have known that from my numerous posts on the subject.

 

[Calliope]

Rmost of the bilemoste: Religion IS crazy!

Perhaps you could explain to me how you could be so bloody silly as to think I have no concerns about the breeding habits of Muslims. I assure you that I have grave concerns about every aspect of Islam and Muslims, and I thought you of all people would have known that from my numerous posts on the subject

Criticism of the Islamic religion has been very muted on this thread, so apparently the experts on religion do not consider it "crazy". Catholics are copping most of the bile. There are plenty of Muslim paedophiles in Australia but they are allowed to get away with it because of “cultural differences”.

 

[bunyip]

Re: Rmost of the bilemoste: Religion IS crazy!

Criticism of the Islamic religion has been very muted on this thread, so apparently the experts on religion do not consider it "crazy". Catholics are copping most of the bile. There are plenty of Muslim paedophiles in Australia but they are allowed to get away with it because of “cultural differences”.

Here you go then, Calliope.......this should clear up your confusion about my views on Islam.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/justice-jeanine/index.html#/v/3982602485001

 

[bunyip]

Re: Rmost of the bilemoste: Religion IS crazy!

Criticism of the Islamic religion has been very muted on this thread, so apparently the experts on religion do not consider it "crazy". Catholics are copping most of the bile.

What Catholics are copping on this thread, Calliope, is acknowledgement from fair-minded people like myself of the good things their religion does. What they’re also copping is the blunt and sometimes unpalatable truths about the shortcomings and failures of the Catholic religion.....truths which, I notice, neither they nor you have been able to refute with any solid argument to the contrary.

 

[Tink]

I have given many reasons, bunyip.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Western_civilization

Our Christian heritage is important for today and for our children, that is my opinion.

I am entitled to stand up for what I believe in.

 

[bunyip]

Our Christian heritage is important for today and for our children, that is my opinion.

I am entitled to stand up for what I believe in.

Yes, of course you are.
In fact I even agree with some of your views, and I've never hesitated to say so when that's been the case.

 

[Value Collector]

I know a lot of priests and nuns that have done a lot in society for their community, working tirelessly in some dangerous situations, and they don't deserve all being put in the same basket because of a few.

Sadly, we don't seem to run on consistency.

I totally agree there would be a lot of priests that have done good work (good people do good things regardless), and that they are not all paedophiles. My beef is not against the individual priests as much as it is with the catholic church as an institution, which for years has hidden, and covered up the repeat offending paedophiles they knew about, moving them from church to church and even internationally every time the committed a sexual assault.

Members of the catholic church have done some good work, But that doesn't make the catholic church as an institution a force for good, Because it's doctrine and actions at an institutional level has been very damaging, and none of the good works relied on the churches supernatural nonsense.

 

[Tink]

Yes, of course you are.
In fact I even agree with some of your views, and I've never hesitated to say so when that's been the case.

Thanks, bunyip,
I do understand what you are saying also.

What I was getting at with that as well, was all the literature etc that has been removed from the schools.

http://ipa.org.au/people/stephanie-forrest

Anyway, enough from me in here.

 

[bunyip]

Tink

Perhaps you’ve given us your view on this before – if so then once again I don’t recall what it was........do you agree with the ‘no birth control’ policy of the Catholic church?

 

[SirRumpole]

Members of the catholic church have done some good work, But that doesn't make the catholic church as an institution a force for good, Because it's doctrine and actions at an institutional level has been very damaging, and none of the good works relied on the churches supernatural nonsense.

What you say about the Catholic church is true up to a point, they have done good and bad. Have they done more
bad than good ? We could argue about that. I think it's probably about equal.

But the Catholics are only one sect in the Christian church. What do you make of the Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists etc which have also been part of our society for a long time ? They also ran schools, orphanages and charities without most of the opprobrium that the Catholics have drawn on themselves via child abuse and other scandals.

Singling the Catholics out for their misdeeds is ok up to a point, but let's not tar everyone with the same brush.

 

[Value Collector]

What you say about the Catholic church is true up to a point, they have done good and bad. Have they done more
bad than good ? We could argue about that. I think it's probably about equal.

.

I think most of the stuff you label as good work of the catholic church, is actually mainly coming from the people at the lower levels, not the institution itself. It would be very hard to define how much good has come from church doctrine and teachings, and whether it would offset the devastating impacts of the bad stuff.

I find most of what the catholic church has done to be self serving.

But when it comes to weighing up good vs bad, consider the Catholic's work in Africa, I mean yes they have fed some starving people and helped some communities there which is good, But they completely undo the good work by then helping spread Aids by preaching against condoms, preaching against homosexuality, spreading mythology as truth which has lead to people being burned alive etc.

It's very hard to weigh up how much good a school did, when the focus of the school was spreading their mythology and lead to an increase in Aids or lead to hatred of gays etc.

What do you make of the Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists etc which have also been part of our society for a long time ? They also ran schools, orphanages and charities without most of the opprobrium that the Catholics have drawn on themselves via child abuse and other scandals.

They are all spread unfounded mythology as truth, which has nasty side effects, and none of them have done anything good thing which there aren't secular organisations doing too.

The average person is good, and will do good without the mythology,

Singling the Catholics out for their misdeeds is ok up to a point, but let's not tar everyone with the same brush

I single them out because they are the largest organisation, But I am not saying all catholics I am saying the catholic organisation.

eg. I can BHP is Bad, that doesn't mean I condemn every BHP employee or contractor.


I have never said all catholics are bad,

 

[bunyip]

I don’t doubt that the Catholic church runs substantial aid programs in third world countries like the Philippines and Latin America where poverty is rife. But a significant cause of this poverty is that they breed like fly's because hundreds of millions of them are Catholics who follow the ‘no contraception’ dictates of their church.
So on the one hand the Catholic church is creating immense problems for people in poor countries by encouraging them to over-breed, and then on the other hand it tries to alleviate the suffering by implementing aid programs to the people for whom it created the problems.

I think the fist priority of the Catholic church should be to get rid of its ridiculous ban on birth control.
Its second priority should be to educate people on the benefits of contraception so they can limit both the size of their families and the degree of poverty caused by having too many children.
And their third priority should be to direct some of the immense wealth of the church towards making free contraceptives available to Catholics in third world countries.

And please – don’t anyone be silly enough to accuse me of blaming the Catholic church for all the suffering and problems in third world countries. That’s not what I’m doing – I’m simply outlining one of the problems and its cause, and suggesting a solution that I think would work.
The Philippines government appears to agree with me....despite the Philippines being the biggest Catholic country in south east Asia, the government is moving towards establishing wide spread use of contraceptives throughout the Philippines in an effort to address the problems of poverty caused by uncontrolled breeding.
Clearly this move is in direct opposition to the policy of the Catholic church, but good on the Philippines government for taking a responsible approach when the church will not.

 

[Value Collector]

I don’t doubt that the Catholic church runs substantial aid programs in third world countries like the Philippines and Latin America where poverty is rife. But a significant cause of this poverty is that they breed like fly's because hundreds of millions of them are Catholics who follow the ‘no contraception’ dictates of their church.
So on the one hand the Catholic church is creating immense problems for people in poor countries by encouraging them to over-breed, and then on the other hand it tries to alleviate the suffering by implementing aid programs to the people for whom it created the problems.

.

This is one of the many topics hit on in this debate, Hitchens and fry destroy the catholic church apologists, and sway the audience vote at end in their favour.

By the end of the debate the audience voted a against the proposition that the catholic church is good, in a land slide victory for fry and Hitchens.

fast forward to the 1hr 57min mark to see the vote, it is embarrassingly funny

 

[bunyip]

I posted this video link over on the ‘Asylum seeker’ thread, but I’m posting it again here so that as many people as possible will see it.
It shows how the cancerous dictatorship of Islam is destroying France by destroying the freedoms of its people.

We simply cannot afford to lay out the welcome mat to immigrants who practice these extremist religions.
In particular I want Calliope to take note that I’ve posted this here, because just a couple of days ago he seemed to think I saw no problems with Islam.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/A3YQANdvvbY

 

[bunyip]

I live on acreage just outside a small village near a major regional city. My morning walk takes me past the Catholic church in my village. A couple of weeks back I came across the Catholic priest who was watering his garden, so I walked over to the fence to say ‘G’day’ and have a yarn.
We introduced ourselves and he turned out to be a really friendly and talkative bloke who I took an instant liking to. He told me he’s ‘retired’ now, but the church has been unable to find a replacement for him so they’ve offered to let him stay on and live in the church house beside the church, on the agreement that he continues with just basic duties such as holding Sunday morning services.
He said the church was finding it increasingly difficult to find enough priests to replace those retiring, because very few young Catholic men these days are joining the priesthood. I asked him why he thought this was – he mentioned a number of reasons, among them was that the average man, Catholic or otherwise, finds little appeal in a life devoid of sexual relationships, marriage and children and family life.
I asked him if he thought the Vatican needed to address this problem by changing its rules regarding celibacy and marriage for priests. His answer was ‘Yes, but I don’t see it happening any time soon’.

I was finding the conversation very interesting and I had a number of other questions I wanted to ask him, but he told me he had to go and get ready for the Mass that was due to start in half an hour.
I’m hoping to bump into him again soon so that we can resume our conversation – I found him an interesting and likeable bloke, very forthright and down to earth. I felt quite sorry for him – a man of that age without the fulfillment of marriage and family life. No doubt he’d say his life has provided fulfillment in other ways, and it probably has, but to miss out on marriage and family life because of the silly and outdated dictates of his church is, in my opinion, a crying shame.
http://www.eurekastreet.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=25280#.VMQUEi7rV3U

 

[pixel]

[...]
he turned out to be a really friendly and talkative bloke who I took an instant liking to.
[...]

No surprise there, bunyip,

The priest is a human being like Millions of others. Walking down the street, joining a Bowling Club, playing a game of Chess in your local park, ... almost every person you meet and strike a conversation with will turn out to be a likeable human being, whether they're Christian Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jew, Arab, Chinese, black, green or brindle.

But talk about the Institution and anything associated with their Holy Cow, you will find almost every time that you flicked a switch: Dogma will replace reason because from early childhood their brains have been hard-wired to accept only on single Truth: The superiority of their god, race, social caste, ... and the need to protect the Inner Circle of rulers and office bearers at any personal cost.
In early social development, from Stone Age to tribal and feudal stages, those dogmas aided the survival and prosperity of the tribe. The strongest macho man, the one with the biggest herd and dung heap, would protect his property, including all the women he used to sire more macho men. In the battle against competing tribes, ambitious rivals or neighbours with an eye on his dung heap, any member of the tribe with less muscle and brain power was dispensible, as long as the ruler and his PR agents survived.

Now replace "Tribe" by "Multi-National" or "Bank" or "Nation", replace "Dung Heap" by "Market Share" or "Economic Dominance", and try the result for size today.

Sound familiar?

 

[bunyip]

No surprise there, bunyip,

The priest is a human being like Millions of others. Walking down the street, joining a Bowling Club, playing a game of Chess in your local park, ... almost every person you meet and strike a conversation with will turn out to be a likeable human being, whether they're Christian Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jew, Arab, Chinese, black, green or brindle.

But talk about the Institution and anything associated with their Holy Cow, you will find almost every time that you flicked a switch: Dogma will replace reason because from early childhood their brains have been hard-wired to accept only on single Truth: The superiority of their god, race, social caste, ... and the need to protect the Inner Circle of rulers and office bearers at any personal cost.
In early social development, from Stone Age to tribal and feudal stages, those dogmas aided the survival and prosperity of the tribe. The strongest macho man, the one with the biggest herd and dung heap, would protect his property, including all the women he used to sire more macho men. In the battle against competing tribes, ambitious rivals or neighbours with an eye on his dung heap, any member of the tribe with less muscle and brain power was dispensible, as long as the ruler and his PR agents survived.

Now replace "Tribe" by "Multi-National" or "Bank" or "Nation", replace "Dung Heap" by "Market Share" or "Economic Dominance", and try the result for size today.

Sound familiar?

Yes Pixel – that sounds very familiar.
What I don’t understand though is when people get old enough to think for themselves, they just don’t bother doing so at least in regard to religion – they just keep believing the same old stuff they were brought up with.
It’s easy enough to understand why they believe it when they’re kids – small children will believe most things adults tell them.
But once people leave childhood behind and become adults themselves, then it’s reasonable to expect them to think like adults rather than just go on believing in fairytales and other nonsense they were taught as kids.

 

[pixel]

Yes Pixel – that sounds very familiar.
What I don’t understand though is when people get old enough to think for themselves, they just don’t bother doing so at least in regard to religion – they just keep believing the same old stuff they were brought up with.
It’s easy enough to understand why they believe it when they’re kids – small children will believe most things adults tell them.
But once people leave childhood behind and become adults themselves, then it’s reasonable to expect them to think like adults rather than just go on believing in fairytales and other nonsense they were taught as kids.

One would hope so, bunyip;
but I'm afraid the Psychology works differently. That's one thing the Catholic church got right when it emphasized Luke 18:16 and Matthew 19:14. What you implant into kids' minds, especially metaphysical mumbo-jumbo that isn't easily subjected to Logic, will stay with them for a lifetime. It's ingrained in the lowest levels of subconsciousness and becomes the foundation for all subsequent ethical concepts.

The more the person has to struggle to make a living and survive, the less time he or she can spend on self-education and "think for themselves". Ever wondered why even in Western societies it's predominantly women, and among those, mostly the elderly, who return to their church for comfort?
(A) even in Western countries, girls' level of education has been well below the level of boys.
(B) given the gender gap in pay and working conditions, women are also disproportionately overrepresented in the "battler" sociology.
Where men have the three R's, women are still fettered by the three K's. *)
A fact that hasn't remained hidden from the Islamists either, who insist on early childhood "Qur'an Schooling" and kill any further education stone-dead.

*) the 3 Ks are "Kids, Kitchen, Kirk" from German "Kinder, Kueche, Kirche"