Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Religion IS crazy!

Jump to new
how the pastor has the gall to call himself a Christian is beyond me

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_2...funeral-service-because-woman?source=infinite

LAKEWOOD ”” Hundreds of Vanessa Collier's friends and family gathered Saturday at New Hope Ministries, sitting before an open casket that held the woman they loved, when suddenly the minister overseeing her funeral stopped the service.

The memorial could not continue, Pastor Ray Chavez said, as long as pictures of Collier with the love of her life, the spouse she shared two children with, were to be displayed.

Chavez said there could be no images of Collier with her wife, Christina. There could be no indication that Collier was gay.
Click to expand...

It takes a special kind of meanness to do this to grieving people.
 
sydboy007 said:
how the pastor has the gall to call himself a Christian is beyond me

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_2...funeral-service-because-woman?source=infinite



It takes a special kind of meanness to do this to grieving people.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't you think the relatives would have checked up with the pastor on his attitude first ?

It's not unknown that churches don't like gays, and you don't need a Minister to perform a service. I don't recall any Ministers at Gough Whitlam's service and he wasn't gay.

So why gays want to have anything to do with churches anyway is beyond my understanding.
 
bellenuit said:
It's gradually changing, at least among the congregation and some front line priests. This would not have happened 20 years ago in "Catholic" Ireland.

Dublin priest says he is gay during Mass – receives standing ovation
Click to expand...

Yes. The Times are a-Changing


Vatican Buys Europe’s Biggest Gay Bathhouse

The Catholic Church recently bought a $30 million share of real estate in Rome — including the largest gay sauna in Europe.
Have they no shame?! (Wait, don’t answer that.)

orazi01.jpg

An advertisement for the gay sauna Europa Multiclub, now proudly owned by the Vatican.
The purchase comes at an unfortunate — or perhaps convenient — time when the Catholic Church is dealing with yet another round of allegations about gay sex scandals, according to The Independent:
The Holy See is still reeling from allegations that the previous pontiff, Benedict XVI, had quit in reaction to the presence of a gay cabal in the curia.
Click to expand...

Read more: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...-europes-biggest-gay-bathhouse/#ixzz3OshONu2a
 
Tink said:
Marriage is what they don't agree with, in the Church.
Click to expand...

Yes, but this front line priest's sermon was in support of gay marriage. They also don't agree with gays having gay sex. They will (reluctantly) accept that you can be gay, but don't allow gays to enjoy their sexuality.
 
bellenuit said:
They also don't agree with gays having gay sex. They will (reluctantly) accept that you can be gay, but don't allow gays to enjoy their sexuality.
Click to expand...

Ah, but once they savour the multiple delights of gay bath-houses, I am sure that they will adapt and enjoy gay sexuality, and paedophilia will become passé.
 
Calliope said:
Ah, but once they savour the multiple delights of gay bath-houses, I am sure that they will adapt and enjoy gay sexuality, and paedophilia will become passé.
Click to expand...

I am sure that gay clergy have been savouring the delights of gay bath houses for years, but your statement would imply that the paedophile priests are actually latent gays which I think is an unfair slur on the gay community. I assume it was not your intention to convey that meaning.
 
bellenuit said:
I am sure that gay clergy have been savouring the delights of gay bath houses for years, but your statement would imply that the paedophile priests are actually latent gays which I think is an unfair slur on the gay community. I assume it was not your intention to convey that meaning.
Click to expand...

You assume correctly. I implied nothing of the sort, and how and why you would make that inference is an indication of your mind-set.
 
but your statement would imply that the paedophile priests are actually latent gays which I think is an unfair slur on the gay community.
Click to expand...

What evidence do you have to rule out that possibility ?

Pedophiles can be both gay and heterosexual. I see no reason to exculpate one or the other from the goings on in the Catholic church or elsewhere.
 
Bellenuit, I understand what you are saying, and of course you will have priests etc speak out, but as you know, the core values of the Church is family (mother, father, children), standing up for all life, and the common good in society.
A healthy society where families stay together to raise their children.

Marriage is a vow, not a document.
I cannot see the Church changing.
If that is what the Church teaches, then the homosexuals need to respect and understand what they stand for, when it comes to Marriage.

As for homosexuals being priests, who knows.
One thing all these people have in common, they are all human.

Homosexuality, paedophilia, incest, polygamy, are all sexual orientations which the Church banned many years ago for a healthy and civil society.

If a human is a 'slave to sex', then they are listening to their tribal urges, we move down to being no different to animals, but as I have said, it happens in society, and they accept all sorts in and out of the Church.

They know what revolves in the community, and that's not saying, right, wrong or indifferent.

A slur on the gay community, sorry, I won't write a PC note as the ABC did, down the bottom to apologise for anyone that has done wrong in society, that includes priests or homosexuals or anyone else, but one thing I will say, I know a lot of priests and nuns that have done a lot in society for their community, working tirelessly in some dangerous situations, and they don't deserve all being put in the same basket because of a few.

Sadly, we don't seem to run on consistency.
 
SirRumpole said:
What evidence do you have to rule out that possibility ?

Pedophiles can be both gay and heterosexual. I see no reason to exculpate one or the other from the goings on in the Catholic church or elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Bingo!

Headworms are not the exclusive domain of social disgraces, they are the route cause.


And to the post regarding the pastor who quite the gay service ..... anyone who knows anything about the USA knows that he would have been the victim of tom foolery, because most of 'em are strictly to the bible when it comes to homosexuality (be friendly, but no divine rights/rites).
 
Tink said:
I know a lot of priests and nuns that have done a lot in society for their community, working tirelessly in some dangerous situations, and they don't deserve all being put in the same basket because of a few.
Click to expand...

Fair comments, Tink. There are indeed many decent priests and nuns who dedicate their lives to helping other people. It’s a pity that the actions of a few bad apples tarnish the image of the majority.
I always feel it’s a shame that decent priests and nuns can’t come home to a wife/husband and children at the end of each day’s work of helping people, and have the support/love/companionship that a well balanced family life offers.

Maybe I’ve asked you this before, if I have then I don’t recall your answer...would you be in favor of allowing Catholic priests and nuns to marry and have children?
 
Tink said:
the core values of the Church is family (mother, father, children), standing up for all life,
Click to expand...

$1,000 could not only save the life of a starving child in a third world country, but also possibly create an opportunity for that child to get an education and eventually become self sufficient. I don't have the data to support that figure, but it is in the ball park of figures touted by Oxfam and Save The Children when they are looking for donations. Now I know there are many third world countries where monetary support is currently not possible because of wars etc,. but there are many where it could be made. I will accept that the Church stands up for all life when it starts spending its vast wealth, currently held in art collections, buildings etc., on saving the lives of these children. You will hear the arguments that they don't own the wealth, but are just holding it for the benefit of mankind etc. (preserving art), but I don't recall Jesus ever saying that is what he expected of his followers. Quite the opposite, if you listen to the Sermon On The Mount. Millions of starving kids could be saved by the Vatican if it so wished, but they prefer to not spend their own wealth, but ask its congregations to do the good deeds for them, for which they then take credit.

Marriage is a vow, not a document.
I cannot see the Church changing.
If that is what the Church teaches, then the homosexuals need to respect and understand what they stand for, when it comes to Marriage.
Click to expand...

Nobody is asking the church to change at all. It is the civil aspect of marriage that is being opened up to homosexuals. The Church can decide who the "Sacrament"of marriage can be given too.

Homosexuality, paedophilia, incest, polygamy, are all sexual orientations which the Church banned many years ago for a healthy and civil society.
Click to expand...

The ban on paedophilia and incest are primarily to protect children and in the latter case also potential offspring. Polygamy is banned to protect the wives. Homosexuality between consenting adults is not a danger to anyone and has been happening for as long as humans have been around.

As an aside, I saw an interesting quote the other day. "Homosexuality is known to occur in at least 140 species of animal. Homophobia occurs in just one. Which of the two is really unnatural"

If a human is a 'slave to sex', then they are listening to their tribal urges, we move down to being no different to animals
Click to expand...

We are not talking about being a slave to sex. Sexual feelings between homosexuals are the same as between heterosexuals and they have as much right to enjoy their sexuality with those they love as heterosexuals have. We are all primarily "sexual" beings and that is what sustains our species.

A slur on the gay community, sorry, I won't write a PC note as the ABC did,
Click to expand...

That wasn't directed at you at all.

I know a lot of priests and nuns that have done a lot in society for their community, working tirelessly in some dangerous situations
Click to expand...

I too. In fact I have 4 aunts who are nuns (now deceased) and they dedicated their whole lives to others. One at the age of 17 was sent to Thailand (and at that time had to wear the same heavy habits as they did back in Ireland) and dedicated her whole life to teaching blind children. She spent about 70 years there, returned home just twice and was buried outside Bangkok. Another was in China and was expelled when the Maoists took over. She and 3 others were told to cross into Hong Kong over some bridge from the mainland and up until they reached the border post on the other side, they were expecting to get a bullet in the back.

and they don't deserve all being put in the same basket because of a few.
Click to expand...

I never have put them all in the same basket.
 
SirRumpole said:
What evidence do you have to rule out that possibility ?

Pedophiles can be both gay and heterosexual. I see no reason to exculpate one or the other from the goings on in the Catholic church or elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Of course there is no fixed boundary that says you can only be one or the other. Just as there is no boundary between any sexual orientation (even between homosexuals and heterosexuals - it is a continuos scale as is evidenced by much research). My comment was that the statement suggested that all paedophiles are latent homosexuals and would be practising homosexuality had they the opportunity.
 
bellenuit said:
My comment was that the statement suggested that all paedophiles are latent homosexuals and would be practising homosexuality had they the opportunity.
Click to expand...

Just to get that straight (pun) are you saying that a male (adult) penetrating another male (child) is not a homosexual act?
 
Tisme said:
Just to get that straight (pun) are you saying that a male (adult) penetrating another male (child) is not a homosexual act?
Click to expand...

Although the act is homosexual in nature, it does not imply that the paedophile is homosexual. It's far more complex than that. Homosexuality is an orientation, paedophelia is a disorder. Pedophilia usually refers to an adult psychological disorder characterized by a preference for prepubescent children as sexual partners. It is the age that is important to them, not the sex of the child. These two sources will explain it better than I can.

The distinction between a victim's gender and a perpetrator's sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes.

.....

The important point is that many child molesters cannot be meaningfully described as homosexuals, heterosexuals, or bisexuals (in the usual sense of those terms) because they are not really capable of a relationship with an adult man or woman. Instead of gender, their sexual attractions are based primarily on age. These individuals – who are often characterized as fixated – are attracted to children, not to men or women.

....

Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children and are preadolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so. The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual (Groth & Gary, 1982, p. 147).

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

One of the world's foremost experts on the subject of pedophilia is Fred Berlin. Here's a summation of his view:

According to Dr. Fred Berlin, a Johns Hopkins University professor who founded the National Institute for the Study, Prevention and Treatment of Sexual Trauma in Baltimore, Md., pedophilia is a distinct sexual orientation marked by persistent, sometimes exclusive, attraction to prepubescent children. ~ Time

The simplest understanding of this, and a very correct understanding is to see that sexual abuse isn't about sexual orientation or sexual attraction. Unattractive people are often victims of sexual abuse and sexual violence. Sexual violence and abuse is about power, domination, and control. It's not about sexual attraction.

....

The US Catholic Bishops commissioned a study on priestly child sex abuse from John Jay College. John Jay researcher Margaret Smith reported back to the Bishops on early findings from their study. From the USA Today:

We do not find a connection between homosexual identity and the increased likelihood of subsequent abuse from the data that we have right now ... It's important to separate the sexual identity and the behavior. Someone can commit sexual acts that might be of a homosexual nature but not have a homosexual identity.

From the same article:

In the book Mental Disorders of the New Millennium (2006), author and psychology professor Thomas Plante writes:

Although the majority of clergy abuse victims are males, homosexuality cannot be blamed. First, many of the pedophile priests report that they are not homosexual. This is also true of many non-clergy sex offenders who victimize boys. Many report that they target boys for a variety of reasons that include easier access to boys ... pregnancy fears with female victims ... homosexuals in general have not been found to be more likely to commit sexual crimes against minors compared to heterosexuals. Sexual orientation is not predictive of sex crimes

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/09/18/903178/-Gays-are-pedophiles-No-Here-s-the-proof#
 
Tink said:
............... but as you know, the core values of the Church is family (mother, father, children) .................
Click to expand...

Tink, I don't know how many times I have read in your posts "the catholic church is all about family...."

The Catholic church is all about power and control - nothing else. All through history the church has sought to control its adherents through guilt and fear, and in doing so has gained immense power and wealth - and that is how it plans to stay.

Untold misery has been visited on families because people had to obey the dictates of their priests or suffer dreadful retribution. Just look at recent times at how families have had to suffer from too many pregnancies, too many children they couldn't afford, women old and worn out before their time from constant childbearing - all because birth control was banned. This did not promote family happiness or well being. And I am not talking about catholic Ireland - I talking about families I knew or know about in the 1960's in Brisbane. Church control in this department was alive and flourishing. Women who were known by their priests to be on birth control were made to feel terrible guilt and refused communion - refused the so-called loving family of the church.

All through the paedophilia saga the church has cared little for the families which have been destroyed - but has done everything to cover its own backside and maintain its power.

In fact I would go so far as to say that the church has interfered in family life to the detriment of families - not for their well-being. If the church cares about families why are priest and nuns not allowed to marry and enjoy the fulfilment family life can offer?

That is not to say there are not priests and nuns in the church who care about families, but the church hierarchy, the Vatican, the people in power care not a fig.
 
Top