Pakistan and the Taliban

[gordon2007]

Yes, I suggest Australia might be sending some aid over very quickly.

I wonder how much $$$ saudi arabia, kuwait, bahrain and other wealthy muslim countries are going to send compared to us and other western countries. http://www.arabnews.com/ doesn't even mention anything about aide given by other muslim countries.

 

[derty]

I wonder how much $$$ saudi arabia, kuwait, bahrain and other wealthy muslim countries are going to send compared to us and other western countries. http://www.arabnews.com/ doesn't even mention anything about aide given by other muslim countries.

A quick google and it's amazing what you can find. Assumptions can often be erroneous.

Tomorrow (Saturday), UNHCR will receive supplies donated by the Saudi Fund for Development including 25,000 tents, 380,000 blankets, 126,000 plastic tarpaulins, 100,000 mattresses and 25,000 kitchen sets as well as 20,000 food parcels for Ramadan.

To date, only five countries – Britain, the US, Australia, Italy and Kuwait – have committed or pledged more than $5m in new funding.

One reason why the west should take a lead role is:

The Pakistani Taliban today urged the government not to accept western aid money, and offered to fund relief efforts itself. Taliban fighters have in the past attacked international aid groups in the country, accusing them of trying to introduce "un-Islamic" values

"Pakistan should reject this aid to maintain sovereignty and independence," a Taliban spokesman told the Associated Press.

Pledged funding to date:

 

[gordon2007]

That's some good research. Again though, much more western countries donating that other muslim countries.

 

[derty]

That's some good research. Again though, much more western countries donating that other muslim countries.

Well Kuwait is pretty much up there by themselves, amongst all the western nations which is a bit sad and India has flat-out refused to send any aid whatsoever. Saudi looks like they are providing physical items rather than cash, but it is not clear what their efforts equal in a monetary sense.

One interesting thing I did find in my investigation was how much aid Saudi has provided in the past. Mind you this mainly appears to be developmental aid rather than humanitarian. From wikipedia:

Between 1975 to 1987, Saudi developmental aid amounted to US$48 billion, second only to the United States of America.

 

[Mofra]

And what about the nukes?

Biological weapons are far easier to transport, deploy, manufacture, and are cheaper than nuclear or chemical weapons by a significant order of magnitude.

Despite the multitude of "missing" weapons due to the break up of the former Societ republic, none of these have been deployed despite the many flare ups in that region.

 

[Calliope]

The scale of the Pakistan disaster dwarfs anything the Americans can do to assist. In a country where anti-American sentiment runs high, disaster relief can do little to change that sentiment.

Islamist linked groups are already scoring points by delivering aid to the needy in some places in advance of the very limited international aid, which is slow to arrive.

 

[basilio]

The scale of the Pakistan disaster dwarfs anything the Americans can do to assist. In a country where anti-American sentiment runs high, disaster relief can do little to change that sentiment.

Islamist linked groups are already scoring points by delivering aid to the needy in some places in advance of the very limited international aid, which is slow to arrive. Posted by Calliope

Sadly totally true. It does look as if Pakistan could literally fall over as a country in the next few weeks. Widespread total destruction of basic infrastructure, 14 million people without food, water or shelter, the beginnings of cholera outbreaks. Just horrific.

And it certainly looks as if the Taliban are being most effective at getting any aid to people which will certainly entrench their influence. So a few critical questions are

1) Where in god's name will 14 million people live and eat ?

2) How much is Pakistans external debts and who will be affected if/when these have to be rescheduled ?

3) Where are the nukes? How are we going to make sure they don't fall into the wrong hands.

 

[Calliope]

1) Where in god's name will 14 million people live and eat ?

2) How much is Pakistans external debts and who will be affected if/when these have to be rescheduled ?

3) Where are the nukes? How are we going to make sure they don't fall into the wrong hands.

Who is going to answer these questions, and when? We probably do not have an answer. Pakistan was on the brink of being a failed state before the floods. The ensuing chaos from the disaster will probably tip them over the edge.

Pakistan is the western democracies' biggest problem and yet on this forum it is ignored, while we argue about which of two look-alike parties we should elect.

 

[Calliope]

If you can't get your head around the flood disaster in Pakistan, imagine a wall of water 200k wide stretching from Brisbane to Melbourne with 20 million homeless people in dire circumstances, with no relief in sight.

And it is not within human capacity to alleviate this huge amount of suffering to any noticeable extent.

 

[gordon2007]

Who is going to answer these questions, and when?

To be honest, I think lot of people just don't give a crap about them. Even during these floods the taliban and al qaeda are still blowing up police stations, schools, women, children and mosques.

Who wants to donate money when it's almost a certainty that a large portion of the money will go to corrupt govenment agencies and possibly directly into the hands of extremists.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find a mass of people who really give about these people when a large part of them don't value a life whatsoever.

I think you'll find a fair bit of people are hoping this great flood acts like a toilet and flushes away years and centuries worth of crap there. Sadly, it won't happen though. I think when extremists learn to respect other peoples views and religions, then, and only then will people really care about these countries.

 

[Calliope]

I think you'll find a fair bit of people are hoping this great flood acts like a toilet and flushes away years and centuries worth of crap there. Sadly, it won't happen though. I think when extremists learn to respect other peoples views and religions, then, and only then will people really care about these countries.

I hope your attitude is not widespread, but I fear it is. I heard Greg Chappel on the radio this morning appealing for help for these people. He has nothing but praise for them. He has had much experience with them and found them a friendly and hospitable race. He has many friends there.

You can't weed out the Islamic terrorists by flushing the innocent down the toilet with them.

 

[gordon2007]

I hope your attitude is not widespread, but I fear it is.

I never said that was 'my' attitude. I was simply stating what you 'fear' is what I believe to be the truth.

You can't weed out the Islamic terrorists by flushing the innocent down the toilet with them.

Obvisiously it doesn't work that way. But again, I think a large amount of people do wish it did.

I feel that a relatively small amount of extremists are ruining the chance for a proper recovery.

 

[Calliope]

The huge swing to the Greens in the election was supposed to show we are a caring nation. Sure, we care for a handful of boat people who are rich enough and lucky enough to become economic refugees. So we pat ourselves on the back.

But the enormity of the Pakistan tragedy is beyond our comprehension. Money is not the answer. Billions were poured into New Orleans with little noticeable effect.

I admit there is nothing we can do except apply small bandaids. We have to resign ourselves to the fact that the ultimate winners will be the Islamic radicals. Revolution thrives on despair. And they will have nuclear weapons.

 

[Mofra]

I think you'll find a fair bit of people are hoping this great flood acts like a toilet and flushes away years and centuries worth of crap there. Sadly, it won't happen though. I think when extremists learn to respect other peoples views and religions, then, and only then will people really care about these countries.

The people most effected are the people in the breadbasket of Pakistan, the most productive areas that by and large have the most anti-extremist/moderate views. Given the economic devastation that Pakistan now faces through loss of productive capacity, there is a risk that more people will be drawn to the poorer fringes of society which prove to be fertile ground for extremism.

If the government are slow to act whilst the more extremist Islamic groups are able to provide aid quickly, it will aid the garnering of support for the Islamists over the government and help the Taliban recruiting strategy. The bedraggled poor of the Pashtun Tasliban could well be supplemented by recruitment from former mainstream tribal areas as a direct result of this tragedy.

 

[gordon2007]

The people most effected are the people in the breadbasket of Pakistan, the most productive areas that by and large have the most anti-extremist/moderate views. Given the economic devastation that Pakistan now faces through loss of productive capacity, there is a risk that more people will be drawn to the poorer fringes of society which prove to be fertile ground for extremism.

If the government are slow to act whilst the more extremist Islamic groups are able to provide aid quickly, it will aid the garnering of support for the Islamists over the government and help the Taliban recruiting strategy. The bedraggled poor of the Pashtun Tasliban could well be supplemented by recruitment from former mainstream tribal areas as a direct result of this tragedy.

Agreed, but again, I think you'll find a large majority just hear the work 'pakistan' and equate that to terrorism, extremists and corrupt government.

In contrast, let's say this happened to a country like Fiji, I think you'd see an outpour of compassion and assistance.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just the world we live in today.

 

[Calliope]

In contrast, let's say this happened to a country like Fiji, I think you'd see an outpour of compassion and assistance.

Yes exactly. We are very caring and compassionate where we think we can be seen to make a difference, and where we expect that the recipients will shower us with gratitude.

 

[gordon2007]

And then you have this:

"MIR ALI, Pakistan ”” The Taliban hinted they may launch attacks against foreigners helping Pakistan respond to the worst floods in the country's history, saying their presence was "unacceptable." The U.N. said it would not be deterred by violent threats.

The militant group has attacked aid workers in the country before, and an outbreak of violence could complicate a relief effort that has already struggled to reach the 8 million people who are in need of emergency assistance."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38860068/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

Just more reasons why some of the general public doesn't give a poop about this disaster.

Who wants to get smacked for helping?

Perhaps had the pakistan government done more to combat terrorists in their own back yard there would be easier options to getting aid to those who need it.

 

[gordon2007]

Pakistan is the western democracies' biggest problem and yet on this forum it is ignored, while we argue about which of two look-alike parties we should elect.

Can understand your frustrations caliope, but look at this arabic web sight, not a word about the floods on their front page.

http://www.asharq-e.com/default.asp What has happened to middle east brotherhood?

Again, why would a middle class person in a western country want to give their money when the bloody arabs don't even give a bleep?

 

[Calliope]

Can understand your frustrations caliope, but look at this arabic web sight, not a word about the floods on their front page.

The point I was trying to make is that the aftermath could be very dangerous for the West. I was not talking about aid. As I said there before is nothing we can do help the flood victims except offer bandaids. The problem is too huge.

 

[gav]

What has happened to middle east brotherhood?

They only band together to fight the Jews.