More Religious Nuts

[bunyip]

Perhaps we should be careful at church, cause the whole place is full of sinners.

That's another thing that used to cheese me off about Christianity.....every time I went to church I was told I was a sinner who needed to pray for forgiveness.
I met some wonderful people through church - good, decent people, unselfish and caring, pillars of the community.
They too were constantly being told they were sinners who should pray for forgiveness.

 

[Cartman]

I'm amused by you poor buggers who scramble your brains with all your deep thinking mumbo jumbo.

Let me know when you come up with some evidence or proof that the god being worshipped by Christians is anything more than just a figment of their imagination.
Let me know when you come up with proof that God created the world and the human race.
Good luck.

lol --- (no disrespect intended and not specifically directed at u Bunyip)

but ---

irrespective of anyone's stance on the existence of god/gods or whatever, id rather be a thinker like MS/T and hopefully come to a valued educated conclusion based on open mindedness --- as opposed to making unsubstantiated dogmatic assumptions based on "common" beliefs --

and that opinion goes for both sides of this debate !! ---- pro "godders" are probably more at fault in my view at "accepting" what they are told without cross examination of the facts at hand --

what i question is our "true" knowledge of the facts" (bearing in mind that todays facts may in fact be tomorrows fiction) ----- i prefer to believe everything yet believe nothing --- while accepting that anything is possible, yet may change at any given moment ----

and u lot wonder why i appear confused !! ----

this is an interesting thread

 

[weird]

It seems to me that we have a Belief vs Truth altercation. By combining the two we may end up with Knowledge. While MS + Tradeism is coming from his epistemologists point of view and rationalising the debate into building blocks of proof and justifed belief it is like living next to an airport for quite a few of the posters. A lot is going above their heads.

The Aristotelian definition of truth states: "To say of something which is that it is not, or to say of something which is not that it is, is false. However, to say of something which is that it is, or of something which is not that it is not, is true."

Place the Rotary 4 Way Test on this thread for a moment; Is it the TRUTH? Is it FAIR to all concerned? Will it build GOODWILL and BETTER FRIENDSHIPS? Will it be BENEFICIAL to all concerned?

Nope ... not working HUH? Ok then ...

Religious Nut Job = 7th July 2005 London. No 30 bus and the Tube blown up by suicide bombers in the name of their religious beliefs. 56 people died and 700 injured. Islamic Fundamentalists.

Old fashioned Nut Job = April 16th 2007 Virginia. Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University massacre by Seung-Hui Cho, killed 32 people and wounded many others before committing suicide. He was mentally ill.

Lost me Trainspotter, using circles in your diagram, cause perfect circles do not exist.

 

[Cartman]

Just as a side issue --- have any of the believers and non believers alike considered the fact that our god is in fact both a woman and the greatest micro-biologist in our known universe !!?? --- and yes i am serious

ps bear in mind our known universe may only hold just a pin-prick of importance on the cosmic ladder of importance --------

narrow mindedness and dogma -------------- very detrimental attributes

 

[Chris45]

In that vein, if (and that’s a very big IF) a scientist, say Giovanni Murtas or Craig Venter, succeeds in creating artificial life in a test tube (Giovanni Murtas apparently thinks he’s very close), how would that affect the people who fervently believe in God, eg the believers who post on this thread?

Since God is supposed to be the one and only creator, would this not be proof to them that He doesn’t exist and therefore there is no spirit world, or would they evolve an explanation that allows for the human creation of artificial life?

Science has shown rather convincingly how species evolve through mutation and natural selection, so it seems to me that all God based religions would surely be destined to collapse, or, would they somehow reinvent themselves with increasing focus on their prophet and his more secular teachings and allow God to slowly fade into oblivion? I think some Christian ministers and priests are already heading in that direction.

However, without the promise of an afterlife with its heavenly rewards, what would sustain the billions of poverty stricken souls who endure their daily hardships in the belief that they will ultimately be rewarded for staying true to their religion and its sometimes cruel and repressive disciplines?

 

[2020hindsight]

However, without the promise of an afterlife with its heavenly rewards, what would sustain the billions of poverty stricken souls who endure their daily hardships in the belief that they will ultimately be rewarded for staying true to their religion and its sometimes cruel and repressive disciplines?

gr8 post chris...

to say nothing of the moslems who speak of "the slow lane to heaven" = living a good life, honest etc....

compared to the "express tollway" of blowing yourself up

Trubel is some of em seriously believe it - virgins must be getting in real short supply up there...
virgin on the ridiculous if you ask me...
and the US Bible belt is almost as bad.

 

[weird]

In that vein, if (and that’s a very big IF) a scientist, say Giovanni Murtas or Craig Venter, succeeds in creating artificial life in a test tube (Giovanni Murtas apparently thinks he’s very close), how would that affect the people who fervently believe in God, eg the believers who post on this thread?

Since God is supposed to be the one and only creator, would this not be proof to them that He doesn’t exist and therefore there is no spirit world, or would they evolve an explanation that allows for the human creation of artificial life?

Science has shown rather convincingly how species evolve through mutation and natural selection, so it seems to me that all God based religions would surely be destined to collapse, or, would they somehow reinvent themselves with increasing focus on their prophet and his more secular teachings and allow God to slowly fade into oblivion? I think some Christian ministers and priests are already heading in that direction.

However, without the promise of an afterlife with its heavenly rewards, what would sustain the billions of poverty stricken souls who endure their daily hardships in the belief that they will ultimately be rewarded for staying true to their religion and its sometimes cruel and repressive disciplines?

lol, sounds like the infinite monkey theorem, except I don't believe he (Giovanni Murtas or Craig Venter or whoever he or she is) will need as many monkeys to 'produce' the results he wants in his lifetime, unless he forces it ... hmmm.

Sounds like hindsight to me - "it's random, but we needed that and this, and that's ok for my discovery, Nobel please, as this is what appears naturally and are ingredients to produce life, and they are already here !!!!".

Try doing it in a vacuum tube !

Btw, Catholicism does not exclude evolution - google it.

I would not be surprised to see scientists to be able to create single cell organisms at some point ... however I don't think it dismisses God.

It's just us imitating, and using the rich soup around us.

 

[wayneL]

In that vein, if (and that’s a very big IF) a scientist, say Giovanni Murtas or Craig Venter, succeeds in creating artificial life in a test tube (Giovanni Murtas apparently thinks he’s very close), how would that affect the people who fervently believe in God, eg the believers who post on this thread?

Artificial life? Not quite. The devil is in the detail.

 

[2020hindsight]

Btw, Catholicism does not exclude evolution - google it.

hey weird ,
are we talking catholicism as practiced in 2000?

1990?
1980? lol
you get my drift I'm sure..

I mean Catholicism is a follower of science.
It's days of leading went out with the invention of the telescope (Galileo).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_pur_si_muove!
E pur si muove!
Nonetheless, it moves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_pur_si_muove!

to be fair they forgave Galileo - in 1992 lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo

On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary, :silly: as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture...

 

[trainspotter]

You are very seriously disturbed weird. The youtube post is a window to your mind. Freudian at best. I was trying to tie in the two case point arguments in regards to the idealogy's flying around the room . BUT NO !! You cannot make an omelete without cracking a few eggs. Oh well ... at least I tried.

 

[weird]

hey weird ,
are we talking catholicism as practiced in 2000?

1990?
1980? lol
you get my drift I'm sure..

I mean Catholicism is a follower of science.
It's days of leading went out with the invention of the telescope (Galileo).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_pur_si_muove!

to be fair they forgave Galileo - in 1992 lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo

Just read at the picture of Pope John Paul II, and below,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

 

[trainspotter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4JIBjxcFn0 if only eh?

 

[2020hindsight]

I just wish Jesus had dedicated 10% - even 5% of his teachings to explaining why the universe was expanding so fast , - the red shift - silly little details like that

dinosaurs ? - hang on ... according to Hovind, dinosaurs were called "unicorns" in the bible lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjKMhtyI3L8

ali G interviews hovind
It's worth persevering with - assuming you're an Ali G fan, lol.
He gets to the nub of the problem at the 5m 30 s mark lol

 

[weird]

Can you guys at least show a preview to the videos, I am multi-tasking most of the time when on this site, at least want a clue of any video to see if it is interesting.

Thought 2020hindsight would correct, the king of YouTube.

Over Ali G btw ... it is so like ...

 

[wayneL]

I just wish Jesus had dedicated 10% - even 5% of his teachings to explaining why the universe was expanding so fast , - the red shift - silly little details like that

FYI, here is an article by Electric Universe theorist Michael Goodspeed.

Silly details.... might just turn out to be silly details.

The French mathematician Jules Henri Poincaré once compared science to a house of stones. He said, "Science is facts; just as houses are made of stone, so is science made of facts; but a pile of stones is not a house, and a collection of facts is not necessarily science." This analogy is apt, because like a house of stones, a collection of "facts" can easily crumble. "Facts" are not truth; they are the transient perception of truth.

For members of the general public with no training in the sciences, the "facts" are whatever they are told by the scientific establishment. The problem is, the "facts" are profoundly colored by interpretation, and interpretation is often based on nothing more than a guess. Perhaps this is most evident in the dominance of the Big Bang theory. Space age discovery has discredited and finally refuted the theory, yet within the halls of official science, it is presented as "fact." Very few scientific publications today express doubt about a hypothesis which a few decades ago was acknowledged to be precarious. And the truth is, nothing has happened to substantiate the theory, despite repeated self-serving announcements of new "verifications."

It's amazing how simple the flaw is in the Big Bang theory. It all boils down to the credibility, or lack thereof, of the Doppler interpretation of redshift. Light frequencies from remote objects in space, when shifted toward the red, are claimed to signify the velocity of the object away from the observer -- and no other explanation is admitted.

The Doppler effect is not complicated. Everyone is familiar with the sudden drop in pitch of a train's whistle as it approaches and then moves past us. The same principle is used in a police radar gun, to measure the speed of an automobile. Once astronomers noted the varying degrees of redshift in remote space objects, most began to interpret this shift as a reliable indicator of velocity. This gave them a mathematical basis for calculating both the size and age of the universe, beginning with the Big Bang.

It is interesting to observe how a theory grows into "fact" over time, evidence be damned. Carl Sagan's Cosmos was published almost a quarter-century ago. At that time, the Big Bang had not yet become a "fact"; questions were still permitted. On the issue of redshift Sagan wrote: "There is nevertheless a nagging suspicion among some astronomers, that all may not be right with the deduction, from the redshift of galaxies via the Doppler effect, that the universe is expanding. The astronomer Halton Arp has found enigmatic and disturbing cases where a galaxy and a quasar, or a pair of galaxies, that are in apparent physical association have very different redshifts...."

Sagan's acknowledgment here shows a candor rarely found in standard treatments of astronomy for the general public. It's also remarkable that 25 years ago, the astronomer Halton Arp had already posed the challenge to the expanding universe, and the Big Bang. And yet today, one would think the issues have all been settled.

Sagan continues, "If Arp is right, the exotic mechanisms proposed to explain the energy source of distant quasars -- supernova chain reactions, supermassive black holes and the like -- would prove unnecessary. Quasars need not then be very distant. But some other exotic mechanism will be required to explain the redshift. In either case, something very strange is going on in the depths of space."

At the time of Sagan's Cosmos, the Doppler interpretation of redshift was debatable. Since that time, discoveries in space have definitively refuted this interpretation, despite the absence of any public announcements to this effect.

The positions of remote galaxies have now been plotted, based on the common interpretation of redshift, and the result exposes the lie. When each galaxy is reduced to a dot on a "map," something "miraculous" occurs.
(This "map" may be viewed at http://www.thunderbolts.info/
tpod-archive-04/tpod-fingers-of-god.htm)

The "map" appears to present the "fingers of God" pointing to Earth, as if we are are the center of the universe. How could this be? No one on either side of the debate considers the earth to be the center of the universe, and everyone seems to agree that no matter where an observer is placed, the same effect will be produced. It is an ILLUSION, and the most obvious explanation is that using redshift to measure distance will artificially stretch groups of galaxies along radial lines away from the observer. In other words, large clusters of galaxies in relative proximity to each other have been artificially projected outward along radial lines spanning billions of light years. To eliminate the illusion, you only need to eliminate the Doppler interpretation.

But I've oversimplified the picture. Cosmologists DO have a partial explanation for the "fingers of God" effect. They tell us that some of the galaxies along the radiating lines are "galaxy clusters," moving around a common center of gravity. And since that involves motion both toward and away from the earth, in these cases the "illusion" should be expected. The problem is that the "fingers of God" span VASTLY larger distances, and across these distances the astronomers' own assumptions preclude dynamic interactions. Indeed, Halton Arp has pointed to hundreds of instances in which multiple objects of different redshifts are part of coherent systems; the bodies are interacting physically and energetically, and obviously do not stand billions of light years away from each other.

Under the weight of this direct evidence -- or should I say proof -- the Big Bang hypothesis as a whole collapses. Yet instead of giving up a failed theory, astronomers have turned to a "get out of jail free" card -- inventing invisible matter, with the option to place it wherever it will be mathematically useful to make their models work. This is the myth of "dark matter," which in recent years has enabled astronomers to hold on to a picture of the universe defied by observation at every turn. Since it is both invisible and undetectable, there is no limit to the usefulness of dark matter, wherever the predictions of their theories have failed. In fact, this device can be applied to all anomalous movements within the macrocosm, with no possibility of refutation. Dark matter is outside the reach of any practical scientific tests, and we are only asked to believe in it because of the failures of standard models.

We are all familiar with the age old question, "If a tree falls in the forest, and there is no one there to hear it, does it still make a sound?" Another question might be, "If a fact is disproved, and no one admits it, is it still a fact?"

Nobel Prize-winning physicist Percy Williams Bridgman once said, "There is no adequate defense, except stupidity, against the impact of a new idea." But most scientists are not guilty of stupidity. Rather, they are guilty of ASSUMPTIONS. Theories were accepted as "facts" before all the evidence was in, and as a result, evidence contradicting the facts was either misinterpreted or ignored. It is time for assumptions to be set aside, so the truth might finally prevail.

 

[2020hindsight]

Can you guys at least show a preview to the videos, I am multi-tasking most of the time when on this site, at least want a clue of any video to see if it is interesting.

Thought 2020hindsight would correct, the queen of YouTube.

well if you go to the youtube, you'll see these details given
this shining light of christian morality (Hovind) ...

Da Ali G Show does science. Ali G (Sasha Baron-Cohen) invited (now federal inmate and tax cheat) creationist Kent Hovind to discuss evolution. The show erroneously lists Hovind as a "Dr," but his "doctorate" was earned from an unaccredited diploma mill. For more Hovind videos look at ones made by http://youtube.com/ExtantDodo and for answers to Hovind's misinformation see: http://www.toarchive.org/faqs/hovind/

==Youtube controversy:==
Kent Hovind is now in prison for 58 felony/tax related convictions. Now his son, Eric Hovind, took over the family business.

Eric has been using false copyright claims to get youtube to pull negative material.

I guess Hovind's son has gotten tired of Kent Hovind's lies getting exposed on YouTube. So his son lied and claimed he owns the copyright on videos in an effort to silence his critics:

....

 

[2020hindsight]

FYI, here is an article by Electric Universe theorist Michael Goodspeed.

Silly details.... might just turn out to be silly details.

like I say wayne
shame Jesus didn't set the record straight on all these options ...

then again , it's a pretty safe bet that he thought the world was flat.

 

[wayneL]

like I say wayne
shame Jesus didn't set the record straight on all these options ...

then again , it's a pretty safe bet that he thought the world was flat.

While you indulge in extreme binomial and tangential arguments, discussion is hopeless.

What Jesus thought and taught about science is not relevant to this discussion.

 

[2020hindsight]

While you indulge in extreme binomial and tangential arguments, discussion is hopeless.

What Jesus thought and taught about science is not relevant to this discussion.

mmm interesting take


I thought he knew everything - or at least his dad did

PS I believe this thread is about exorcism - and I'm thinking I'm one of the few who has posted to that topic. (refer Witch Children of Nigeria etc)

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=463884&highlight=nigeria#post463884

compare the first post ... all about exorcism.

 

[weird]

like I say wayne
shame Jesus didn't set the record straight on all these options ...

then again , it's a pretty safe bet that he thought the world was flat.

Perhaps one day you can ask him.

Good post Wayne, good to see some actual reasoning.