- Joined
- 21 June 2009
- Posts
- 5,880
- Reactions
- 14
*Note to self* Never, ever drink anything that WayneL offers you that resembles beer. It could be cats urine !
More Religious Nuts
- Thread starter darkside
- Start date
*Note to self* Never, ever drink anything that WayneL offers you that resembles beer. It could be cats urine !
explod
explod
- Joined
- 4 March 2007
- Posts
- 7,341
- Reactions
- 1,198
Just part of infinate matter coming together in the right conditions to germinate. NASA scientist recently put the chemical blocks together to show how life began here.
Infinity is the hard one of course because it has no beginning and no end, allways been here and will allways be here.
If you can get your head around that then reincarnation is an easy one. In total infinity our matter may in the cosmos come together again to have consciousness again.
Bunyip you say you were a christian for 25 years and you did extensive research, then surely you would know the answers to these questions? Whether you accept these is in fact a different question.
I am happy to respond.
Q - How do you know God exists?
A - We do not KNOW that God exists. Christianity is based on faith, so to know that God exists would not require faith at all.
I could ask you the same question, not how you know that god does not exist, but rather than having you say you can't prove a negative I would rather ask :
How do you know:
That all space, time , matter miraculously appeared in a singularity?
How this singularity exploded and what caused it?
How complex single celled organisms spontaniously generated from inorganic matter?
How did asexual reproduction change to sexual reproduction?
How languages developed?
I could add many more such questions to this list, but the simple answer is that no-one really knows. Many theories and speculations abound but we just do not know.
What you then do is look at the world around us and then decide what is a best fit.
The fact that we are having this discussion is a better fit with a creator God than a random explosion as we have been created in the image of God with intelligence and the ability to communicate.
The fact that the universe follows certain laws is a better fit with a Creator God than a random explosion.
Morality with reference to an absolute is a better fit than a random explosion.
If a creator God exists, then it would be logical to assume that Natural selection is a better fit with a creator who creates using economy of design so that species adapt to their environment as they spread accross the earth. (speciation is indeed an intergarl part of creation models).
A creator God who creates different kinds to reproduce within their boundaries, is more logical than relying on random genetic copying errors to result in dinosaurs changing to birds to humans etc.
A creator God who creates humans would logically have interaction with them and this is the history throughout the Bible.
Now each of these topics can be expanded into a book, but I acknowledge that the biggest weakness in my position is that if you do not believe in a Creator god, then you cannot accept what I believe and that is fair enough and I respect your opinion but we both cannot be correct.
So simply put, why I believe is that it is a better fit with the evidence.
Who created God?
Bunyip, thought this was a bit disappointing this question as my 5 year old daughter could answer this. If you did extensive research you should know the answer even though you do not accept it.
Answer is no-one.
God created all space, time and matter and it is ridiculous to limit God to the creation boundaries he has placed us in.
I guess a good analogy to this is that if i write a book, you do not limit me to the contents of what i have written within the book.
So there you go. Hope you acknowledge that this is an attempt at an honest answer to your questions. I responded not so much for your benefit as you I am sure have considered these and rejected these ( and that is your prerogative). Hopefully there may be others who are interested especially given that you made it sound that these questions are questions whcih are in the too hard basket for christianity which they are clearly not.
- Joined
- 21 June 2009
- Posts
- 5,880
- Reactions
- 14
Nice one ktrianta ! I like it.
Nice one ktrianta ! I like it.
Careful there trainspotter, next step we will be praying the sinners prayer together
.
Sean K
Moderator
- Joined
- 21 April 2006
- Posts
- 22,368
- Reactions
- 11,729
Assigning these things you list to 'God' does not mean He exists. It simply means the answers have not being discovered yet. Why assign this to the Judo/Christian/Islam myths when SO MUCH is unknown. The ancients look pretty damn foolish now for believing the Earth was flat and the centre of the Universe. How I imagine religious people will look in centuries to come. Looks foolish now really. If your idea of God is not a supernatural being that created the Universe in a few seconds, and sent His only Son to be tortured and killed on our behalf, but is simply the unknowable, you're probably getting closer to tha mark.
True enough, but as I said in my post in response to Bunyip's questions, it is the best fit for the evidence. You may not agree and that is fine, but why should I believe what you believe because of the unknowns (or vice versa)?
- Joined
- 21 June 2009
- Posts
- 5,880
- Reactions
- 14
Careful there trainspotter, next step we will be praying the sinners prayer together
Our lager
Which art in barrels
Hallowed be thy drink
Thy will be drunk, (I will be drunk)
At home as it is in the tavern
Give us this day our foamy head
And forgive us our spillage
As we forgive those who spill against us
And lead us not into incarceration
But deliver us from hangovers
For thine is the beer, the bitter, and the lager
Barmen
Which art in barrels
Hallowed be thy drink
Thy will be drunk, (I will be drunk)
At home as it is in the tavern
Give us this day our foamy head
And forgive us our spillage
As we forgive those who spill against us
And lead us not into incarceration
But deliver us from hangovers
For thine is the beer, the bitter, and the lager
Barmen
- Joined
- 29 August 2006
- Posts
- 909
- Reactions
- 148
You seem to have not one clue as to what a scientific theory actually is.
Try this. I have a hypothesis that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
To formulate that into a theory, I would need observational evidence.
Hypothesis + Evidence = Theory
- Joined
- 18 September 2008
- Posts
- 4,041
- Reactions
- 1,185
I have to agree with Kennas. You response isn't the best fit for the evidence. It isn't a fit at all, except to assign everything that isn't yet understood to your mythical deity. But why should your deity be any better fit than any other deity that is believed to have infinite powers.
The thing I find interesting in your argument is that you seem to be adopting the more enlightened strategy of modern religious thinkers in accepting most of what science has learned and currently believes in, even though much of it would have been heresy in the past, and really saying that they are just following the laws of nature that were put in place by your God. Yet you cannot accept that God could have put in place laws of nature that allow some of the things you say are illogical. Why did he need to intervene at certain times in order to kick start some processes that you seem to assume couldn't have happened otherwise.
As science discovers more and more, this explanation recedes further from God intervening to kick start certain processes to God not intervening at all except to start the one initial process. And of course you would still argue that your 'belief' is still the best fit because science still hasn't explained that one event, so an all powerful deity MUST be the answer.
mmm --- interesting hypothesis Bell --- can you elaborate on your reasoning ?
- Joined
- 21 June 2009
- Posts
- 5,880
- Reactions
- 14
Now I find this offensive. This is not art. I may not know art but I know what I like and this aint it !
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25824780-23109,00.html
If this was a Koran then a fatwa would be issued against this so called "artist" ... and rightly so I would think !!!!!
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25824780-23109,00.html
If this was a Koran then a fatwa would be issued against this so called "artist" ... and rightly so I would think !!!!!
Conversley the more science discovers the more strongly it may support my best fit scenario by raising even more questions which can be slotted into this best fit scenario. This is the unknown as stated by Kenna and why do you automatically assume that it will support your view rather than mine?
All we have to look at is the incredible complexity of DNA which shows there is no such thing as a simple life form, as all are incredibly complex and yet just 200 years ago it was thought that "simple" life forms did exist.
Simple fact is this will never be resolved as you and I will most likely be long gone as more questions are raised with each new discovery.
- Joined
- 21 June 2009
- Posts
- 5,880
- Reactions
- 14
Eric Clapton is God. The phrase was spray-painted by an admirer on a wall in an Islington Underground station in the autumn of 1967. The graffiti was captured in a now-famous photograph, in which a dog is urinating on the wall. Clapton is well reported to have been embarrassed by the slogan, saying in The South Bank Show profile of him made in 1987, "I never accepted that I was the greatest guitar player in the world. I always wanted to be the greatest guitar player in the world, but that's an ideal, and I accept it as an ideal". The phrase began to appear in other areas of Islington throughout the mid-60s.
Attachments
explod
explod
- Joined
- 4 March 2007
- Posts
- 7,341
- Reactions
- 1,198
Where does this exactly fit into the existence of a superior being.
It seems that what some minds are unable to comprehend we believe is beyond all explanation so we turn to the safety of God.
Ktrianta
Thanks for making a sincere attempt to answer my questions.
Actually my original question in post No. 339 was a little broader than simply 'Who or what created God' - I also asked how he came into existence.
You're disappointed that I don't know the answer? Let me assure you that I do in fact know the answer, at least from the viewpoint of Christianity.
The only problem is that the answer just doesn't hold water.
I've asked this question of a number of ordained ministers of religion. The most common answer I received was something along the lines of "Nothing created God - he always just 'was'."
Well no actually, he always wasn't. If he exists then he was created in some way by someone or something or some process....but nobody has the faintest idea who or what it was.
That is, assuming that he does in fact exist....and there's not one single shred of evidence or proof that he does.
I appreciate that you've been honest enough to admit that, in your own words...'We do not KNOW that God exists. Christianity is based on faith'.
I can have faith in something only if there's a reasonable basis for that faith. I won't have faith that the Wallabies will win the next Rugby Word Cup unless they're in outstanding form leading up to the World Cup.
I have faith that my kids will lead good and decent lives as adults, but only because we've given them a decent upbringing and they've so far proven themselves to be good and responsible people.
For the record, I don't subscribe to the 'random explosion' theory to explain the origins of our world.
The random explosion theory begs the question - 'what exploded'?
Something has to explode for there to be an explosion. And that something has to be created in the first instance by someone or something or some process. Again, there are no credible answers as to who or what that might have been.
You've posed a number of questions. I don't pretend to know the answers and I don't need to know them.
Frankly I couldn't care less how we got here or how our world got here.
But I can tell you one thing.....I'm not naive and gullible enough to have absolute, unshakable faith in something or someone or some theory that is not supported by one single shred of evidence, let alone fact.
I don't need to come up with theories. Irrespective of the origins of the world and the human race, I'm just happy to be decent person who feels privileged to be part of it all.
At least you have thought through some of the relevant issues, but think that we can agree to disagree.
Guess that this thread is way off topic now, so I am more than happy to move on.
- Joined
- 21 June 2009
- Posts
- 5,880
- Reactions
- 14
Agree to disagree or "agreeing to disagree" is a phrase in English referring to the resolution of a conflict (usually a debate or quarrel) whereby all parties tolerate but do not accept the opposing position(s). It generally occurs when all sides recognise that further conflict is unnecessary, ineffective or otherwise undesirable. They may also remain on amicable terms while continuing to disagree.
"What we have hear folks, is a failure to communicate." Cool Hand Luke said this (or a version of it) and BOY is it appropriate.
"What we have hear folks, is a failure to communicate." Cool Hand Luke said this (or a version of it) and BOY is it appropriate.
- Joined
- 18 September 2008
- Posts
- 4,041
- Reactions
- 1,185
Because history has shown us that when scientific reasoning is pitted against biblical beliefs, the latter has always lost out. I don't know of any exception to date.
When I referred to some of your arguments as representing the more enlightened views of some modern religious thinkers, that enlightened view is very much a retreat and regroup position following defeat of previously held positions by overwhelming scientific evidence. For example, if I understand you correctly, you seem to be accepting evolution as an explanation for diversity within species, but not an explanation for the existence of different species. God created the different species, and evolution created the diversity within. However, accepting evolution as an explanation for diversity within species is a retreat from the position that was held by religious thinkers in the past (and quite a few of the US variety today) that every living creature was uniquely and individually created by God.
Oh, I've thought through the relevant issues all right - I've spent decades thinking them through.
However, there are many Christians who, rather than thinking things through, have simply accepted and believed every aspect of Christianity that was brainwashed into them as children.
Christianity, Islam and probably most other religions are well aware that the best way to get converts for life is to drum it into them when they're too young to think for themselves.
By the time they're old enough to think for themselves, their minds are so impregnated with the beliefs of their religion that they have no interest in questioning or challenging those beliefs.
Yes, the discussion has wandered well and truly off topic.
Maybe we need a new thread titled 'All Things Religious' where we can talk about anything at all relating to religion without wandering off topic.
