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You and Luutzu are basically on the same page, denouncing war, aren't you?
Luutzu is giving a voice to the underdogs, the Palestinians.
Israel can look after itself.
I just saw this again and completely gagged, confirming the entire lack of gratitude for those who actually gave their lives in the service of their nations to uphold the values you shout from the bleachers about. This is an unbelievably callous statement and a complete insult to to those whose sacrifice for Australia and the United States you will hopefully never equal. Take that survey, and see if you survive the first 100 visits.
Australia lost 40,500 lives in the war with many many more wounded.
The United States lost 418,500 lives with many many more wounded.
What kind of warped mind comes up with the statement you have just made? This hits rock bottom. You cannot produce anything more vile than this.
....the answer will be just the Jewish people and that's about it..... disgusting.
LuuTzu: I will put up as a wager, the value of whatever assets you can muster together, down to the cufflink, including whatever 50 years of your personal servitude might be worth as a servant of the War Memorials in Australia and in the US. I will take that bet. I will take that bet RIGHT NOW.
Israel can look after itself.
1. You and Luutzu are basically on the same page, denouncing war, aren't you?
2. Luutzu is giving a voice to the underdogs, the Palestinians.
3. Israel can look after itself.
I am never excusing that terrorism or violence... and in many ways, I'm happy for myself and my children that the Western powers have to prop up dictators and control to world... because as far as i'm concern, that's good for me and my children.. .and I hope the US and the Western powers continue to dominate and China and Russia and all other powers remain weak lest my kids have to go to war...
It might appear that I have a thing for Hamas, but I don't think it's fair to take the fact that I neither defend nor support them to mean that I am on their side... I just don't know enough about them or what they've done, or bothered to look up their histories etc etc..
I mean, beat up the Palestinians for all I care... I'm old enough and will slowly not be surprised at the things people do...
Israel has invaded another country and has weapons of mass destruction.
I think we should go in and kick Benjamin Netanyahu ass, the same way we gave it to Saddam Hussein (who did not even have weapons of mass destruction).
So Israel can lie and do what they do for their national interests, just don't use my name or lie to me about doing it to project my values and how we're both alike. Why? Because it's morally offensive what they're doing, doing it in my name, I get no benefit from it but might one day have to pay the price for their greed.
You seem to be acknowledging that Israel has the right to defend itself?
Some well expressed,impeccable logic from one person in particular which, thank goodness, helps to balance out the rubbish, especially including those where asterisks appear to replace a more edifying vocabulary.
Just on what is unfolding in Iraq, I'm reminded of the pathetic, whining attempt at justification after it was demonstrated that there were no WMD, "Well, we did them a favour by getting rid of that evil dictator, Saddam".
Not looking like such a great idea now, is it?
So do the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.
I believe some of the trouble may have been caused by the USA in trying to convert these regimes into the Western way of democracy and it has not worked......Israel however is a western style democracy which does not suit the bordering countries hence their determination to rid the area of Jews.
2. It's a strange kind of voice he's giving to the Palestinians as underdogs:
Quote Originally Posted by luutzu View Post
It might appear that I have a thing for Hamas, but I don't think it's fair to take the fact that I neither defend nor support them to mean that I am on their side... I just don't know enough about them or what they've done, or bothered to look up their histories etc etc..
I mean, beat up the Palestinians for all I care... I'm old enough and will slowly not be surprised at the things people do...
When I press <Submit Reply> this hits the web. The NSA can pick it up. All the best. I think I'm done here. Mission Accomplished.
What if the territory of Israel was a western style democracy but inhabited 100% by muslims. Would this be as equally bothersome for the bordering countries.
1. I think you will find lutzu was speaking in jest.
2. What is that supposed to mean?
I just saw this again and completely gagged, confirming the entire lack of gratitude for those who actually gave their lives in the service of their nations to uphold the values you shout from the bleachers about. This is an unbelievably callous statement and a complete insult to to those whose sacrifice for Australia and the United States you will hopefully never equal. Take that survey, and see if you survive the first 100 visits.
Australia lost 40,500 lives in the war with many many more wounded.
The United States lost 418,500 lives with many many more wounded.
What kind of warped mind comes up with the statement you have just made? This hits rock bottom. You cannot produce anything more vile than this.
....the answer will be just the Jewish people and that's about it..... disgusting.
LuuTzu: I will put up as a wager, the value of whatever assets you can muster together, down to the cufflink, including whatever 50 years of your personal servitude might be worth as a servant of the War Memorials in Australia and in the US. I will take that bet. I will take that bet RIGHT NOW.
Well, hello.
1. Really?
I think he's pretty happy to wage war and for others to have their blood spilled and rights violated because "that's good for him (me) and his children". A real peace maker. Let's sing Kumbuyah around the campfire. I'll bring marshmallows.
2. It's a strange kind of voice he's giving to the Palestinians as underdogs:
Perhaps my comprehension is off. I think it's an undecided for Hamas and 'beat up the Palestinians for all I care' for the, uhh, Palestinians.
3. He is not arguing that, although you might:
LuuTzu's position is that it's OK to wage war in his name if it directly benefits him and his kids, but it's bad for Israel to wage war in their national interests because they have somehow used his name yadda yadda...
And he finds THAT morally offensive.
Is this difference in our positions quite clear enough? Is the hypocrisy of Luutzu's moral position now clear enough for all on this thread to see in brilliant HD, that can be loaded onto YouTube?
When I press <Submit Reply> this hits the web. The NSA can pick it up. All the best. I think I'm done here. Mission Accomplished.
1. Seems to have sailed over your head like a Scud missile as per so many of the comments made in response to your views.
The point was to highlight that Australia, Great Britain and the US lead a coalition of the willing under a context (World Trade) and under very poor intel about WMD that was so bad it can only be regarded as formulated pretext (say, the killing of three Israeli kids by their own army as you can't seem to rule out) to invade a country because it had WMD as was part of a newly invented Axis of Evil, turn it upside down, killed and maimed so many multiples of the people you are talking about here, with weaponry so far ahead of the opposition that they might as well be throwing rocks. What we...you live in the country...did can be seen in the same light as you see Israel. Actually, it was far worse. We also live with democratic values yadda yadda. Many people in this country don't like to kill either. They don't like to see little kids under rubble either. But we did it. And you are part of it, just like a stack of other Israelis are part of their war despite having similar humanitarian urges. And we left behind a catastrophe whose full horror has yet to reveal itself. That's what a power vacuum looks like. Israel is a cute kitty cat in comparison to this. And you live and breathe and enjoy the freedoms and benefits of a country that did this.
If the actions of Israel upset you, Behold the horror of the nation you live in, under whose protections you enjoy. And we don't even have to go into the Vietnam War, do we?
Welcome to the world, you're standing in it.
2. How is that different to what John Howard was saying? Israel cannot lose a war. That's the reality. You keep going on and on about Mearsheimer. Morganthau was his mentor. Dr. Realist. Mearsheimer added some tought to it. International politics occurs in an anarchic framework. In this world, which is the one you actually live in were you to look beyond documentaries, nations compete. They expand where they can. They want more. And, so the world develops. What you are seeing in Israel/Palestine is realism in action writ large. Feel free to carry a World Peace protect flag. This stuff is truly ugly. You don't have to like it. But Israel is just acting as Mearsheimer and Morganthau would predict.
The greatest bastion of democracy and its values is the US. Are you aware of the amount of stuff they get up to in the name of defending the way of life? They've probably got you bugged and know which YouTube videos you have been watching to check if you are a jihadist. Think about it....before you click on another anti-Israeli link. Are you aware of how many wars, skirmishes, indirect financing, toppling of leadership, violations of human rights, atom bombs released....have taken place to defend the values you want so much? This is the price. There is no Boxing Day discount for this. This is the price. Mistakes and all.
3. Yes there is. France, the UK, Poland and Russia also had a lot of Germans near their borders too. Rather a lot closer to their densely populated centers. When they tried not to provoke the re-militarizing Germans (let's not upset them....nooo.. they might hate us and hurt us...). Umm...let me spell it out. The European Theatre descended into World War II. Thus far, the greatest human tragedy we have ever recorded. That's what appeasement does.
4. ....and the US avenged the deaths of Americans in the Trade Centre completely disproportionately. Radicalizing a stack of Muslims, many more of which would gladly fly a plane into the White House. Great move that. The deal that was done with Saudi Arabia in terms of oil vs protection was made with the leadership. It was genuinely important for US strategic interests. These are the trade-offs on a world scale. As Kissinger puts it, statesmen should be exempt from war crimes, because of the things they must do to defend their states. If you don't like it and think it hypocritical, you might wish to reconsider whether what they say as truth. Think like Mearsheimer. What comes out of their mouths is what you want to hear. Then they get on with the actual realities. We all liked fairy tales once. Some of us still seem to.
How many of Bin Laden's family were living it up in the US when the twin towers were hit? He might have hated the US, but a whole bunch of others seemed pretty happy about it. Can't please every radical, I guess.
5. .....open...your...eyes.
6. You don't have to like it. It is disgusting. You don't have to pull the trigger if a rifle was put in your hands. You can hand it to the guy charging at you with a fixed bayonet instead. But, many soldiers in war feel the same. Check out the history of Gallipoli when it became trench warfare. They just wanted to go home too. No-one says this is nice. Well, not me, anyway.
7. You still don't know it. Can you not make some allowance for the variety of comments you have received to see the barest morsel of truth in them? After all, they are reasonably aligned in disagreement and don't seem to write as if they are the same poster on multiple accounts. From the thread the likelihood is, actually, no. You won't listen and things therefore will not change and you will go on about it and think something uniquely hyprocritical is going on, whose values you do not share despite happily sharing in the benefits. Peace is so precious. But often the price is war.
In this case, it is a blood feud. That is the nastiest form of war.
There is no right. No-one gets to claim the moral high ground. And yet, once again, where nations fail, you stand atop the mountain of righteousness enjoying the view without bothering to look at the fact that this mountain is covered in blood. Get it?
Here is a video from an important source of knowledge, YouTube. It is even set to music. It relates to a lie the Western alliance, including Australia's Prime Minister, concocted in our name in order to invade another sovereign state. It resulted in the deaths of over 7,000 military personnel. It led to the deaths and permanent wounding of many many more who just wanted to get on with their lives, but had their doors kicked in routinely and much worse. It has left a power vacuum which has now destabilized the country, region, and created blowback of enormous proportion.
What do you know....the mission did not actually conclude per plan.
1. Can you please tell me which part of the extensive response to Bellenuit in post #135 was written in jest, written in truth, intended to be accurate but putting words in his/her mouth, misconstruing the prior post...it would be helpful because I have to take it literally given all the tangents presented.
LuuTzu doesn't like it when people get pounded by stronger forces. He is indifferent whether they be Palestinians or some other set of opposition. That's about the only coherent outcome that I can fathom from the various entries in order for them to have internal consistency.
His main point is that war is bad unless favourable to him and his family. He finds it morally reprehensible that Israel somehow dragged his name, country and values into it.
Let's go over some new ground. In 2003, a war was started. It was a coalition of willing countries which allied in the common understanding that, in the choice of being "with us or against us", it was absolutely clear that those who were with the US included Great Britain and Australia and.....my goodness, would you look at that, Israel. Israel was with Australia, shared its values and was probably given a Deputy Sherriff badge as well. The US and Australia were happy enough to partner with Israel in the fight Iraq II in the name of democracy, freedom, Western values and in joint national interest... Their interests were so strongly aligned that the greatest fear of the western alliance was that a missile strike onto Israeli territory would bring a hail of war into Iraq from the IDF given the need to retaliate. This would set off a tinder box in the entire region. So a wall of Patriot missiles was erected to protect against this possibility. That's how strong the bond was.
What suddenly changed such that Israel's ability or right to make the claim that they share these values and see it as a binding identity? They/we fought a war together. It was only a decade ago. If Israel falls, imagine the sense of power this will give to its enemies and the consequent effects this would actually have for the national interests of the west....that includes Australia's allies and trading partners.
Even if the whole thing was a fiction, we go back to Mearsheimer and Morganthau. Nations with power will use it. They will create context. They will do what it takes to get the objective they desire...including bringing a hail of shrapnel onto the populace that elected them. Do you think it would be good strategy to claim legitimacy via talking about shared values? Probably. Wait a minute, wasn't that the line used by the US in fabricating WMD and then going about getting as many confirmatory signatures as possible (including Macedonia, whose contribution to the war was....a letter of support)? Weren't we a part of this? Are you morally outraged? Or you're not because it benefited you and your kids.
Maybe this is clear?
Even if you wish to disagree with that, the context for Luutzu's outrage, being a war in his name with no benefit to him as opposed to a war of equivalent ferocity if it benefited him should be obvious in its hypocrisy. Further, he is happy to enjoy the freedoms that come from oppression (unless that was said in jest as well) of others, although the activity of achieving this dusgusts him personally and he is insulted at the prospect/imagination of having to bear arms and deploy them if he were actually at the frontline of the oppression which presumably would benefit his kids. He casts indignation at the thought that he would act as one of the soldiers that oppresses on his behalf might have to. Hypocracy. Happy to get the benefits. Morally outraged when others seek the same using propoganda. Indignant about the price paid and morally outraged at what others do so he is able to make these absurd, internally warped and inconsistent claims.
2. This was not obvious enough.
Who are the oppressors and the violated? The CIA is currently apologising for spying on the US Senate and for the harshness of its interrogation methods which violated the 'laws of war' they helped to draft. Snowden has unfurled the offensive nature of intrusion into the lives of everyone. US citizens, heads of state of our allies and probably our own government, ordinary citizens. The NSA is the largest security apparatus in the US and monitors everything that generates a signal. They know you. They know me. They can profile us in an instant, they know if we are a risk if the templates match what they think a dangerous profile looks like. It's the same process as detecting fraudulent spending on your credit card, figuring out what you like to buy without you even being aware of it...but on speed.
We are victims of our own defenders. They do this in our name. They did this without our consent. It violates anything that can be reasonably called western democratic values. Are you morally outraged?
LuuTzu can be morally outraged if he wants. In this country, it's UnAustralian (what is that exactly? Are they making up something that drags my name and values into some amorphous concept that binds with LuuTzu's without my consent? I am morally outraged!!), to silence disagreement. Sometimes, I just try to ignore it...other times, I engage.
You and Luutzu are basically on the same page, denouncing war, aren't you?
Luutzu is giving a voice to the underdogs, the Palestinians.
Israel can look after itself.
WOW!
1. Put some context into what I say, at least give me that.
2. Did I say no one but the Jewish people suffer in WW2? I am pretty sure I wrote the opposite of that... and that's still written in black and white up there.
3. I still don't know how many Vietnamese were killed and murdered by Imperial Japan during WW2 - do you?
4. I can't believe I have to explain that I meant the Holocaust and the suffering of the Jews in WW2 are so big in popular culture, so entrench in the mind of the general Western public that i would bet if you do a survey, most will think the Jews have had it the worst during WW2... that the public would think they're the only one that suffered.
5. And if you read and listen to Israel and its supporters over the past decades til now... what do you often hear? "Never again", "we will not be silent", "we're protecting our people, our citizens",
and on and on...
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