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I did not mention Muslims only Hamas.....get your facts right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War
Muslims fighting Muslims...brothers killing each other in Syria.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/22/syrian-fighting-violence.html
700 Syrian Muslims killed in 2 days....I did hear on some news article as that figure as being 1500.
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I consider myself a normal guy who can read, maybe I'm not because I seriously don't know whether you're being sarcastic or know what you're saying most of the time.
I think you reckon youtube only has either videos of cute kitty cats or uploads of crazy rants or something. That or its contents are not valuable because it's free or something.
YouTube is the best thing since television, and through it, my eyes have been open to a lot of seriously intelligent debates and discussions around the world, on all topics, than anything I have ever found on the mainstream media and only rarely at my local library or video shops' documentary section when I was growing up.
Did I support the Iraq war? That's what you seem to imply, or that I should be debating about Iraq and its consequences?
... I laughed at the idea that Saddam have WMD because it sound insane to march into Baghdad like cowboys with gas masks, but I admit I wasn't sure if they have WMD or not until later when i watch the news.
Maybe Howard joining the "coalition of the willing" [?] and send our soldiers there was for our national interests - stronger alliance with the US, maybe a couple of big contracts, secure oil supplies else the Russian or Chinese might get there... who knows... and there might be blowbacks because of that, or just terrorist act against Australians no matter what we do, or that we ought to do what is to our interests and take the consequences as they come.
You might be right that Israel and whatever consequences from it to Australian are nil and our involvement with Iraq would do us more harm... but I don't think Israel's actions should be ignore on Australian national interest terms for the following reasons:
1. Israel claim to be a democratic, liberal, civilised country with "western value" and ideals and are fighting for its survival - and by extension, fighting for our value, our way of life;
-- There's a fairly large Islamic population to our northern borders yea? Many Australians have been killed in that terrorist act in Bali yea? My kids, your kids might go to Bali one day... heaven forbid some misguided kid got brainwashed by some terror cells - see that Bali is where westerners frequent, western values was what Israel did in Palestine against his God and his people...
It's not far fetched at all. Mearsheimer and Walt in their lectures on the Israeli lobby and US foreign policies cited how Bin Laden grew up hating the US for its support of Israel, how that mastermind of the 911 attack wasn't at all religious but hate the US for what it and Israel did to the Palestinians, how bin Laden wanted to move the day of the attack to coincide with certain Israeli days...
Of course most of the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia and they hate the US for its policies there...
I agree with you that we will always have enemies, we cannot let our enemies dictate our policies... I'm all for that. But how does being grouped with Israel's actions and values towards the Palestinians benefit Australia? I fail to see any.
Heck, they bomb Gaza and we have to send Gazan $5 million, and that's just a band aid... I'd rather we send Gaza aid to help it thrive, not make it not die too quickly from a miserable death, that's repeated on them every couple of years.
---
The other reason I don't like what Israel is doing is petty but I just don't like people killing anyone, let alone civilians and children in their thousands, year in year out... I don't like people who are racist, who systematically cleanse another ethnic group, who continuously occupy their land and destroy what livelihood people managed to rake out from whatever land or material they could managed to gathered over the years since displacement... who brutalise and subjugate fellow human beings... then, then have to nerve to tell me that if i were in their shoes, I would do the same.
And i'm upset, petty as it is, that all these time I was made a sucker and didn't know it.
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John Kerry, Barrack Obama, French president Sarkozy, just about all South American head of states, any Jewish people whose name he claim to be fighting in... me.
Sarkozy and Obama hate the guy, check this out...
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DeepState
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....and > 1,737 in Iraq just last month...after the installation of a puppet and a war of liberation for their and the world's benefit which was supposed to bring democracy and lasting peace to the region.
Reads like some economic statistic, July deaths were >1,737, down from 2,400 in June. GDP is expected to improve as the rate of deaths for July came below the Bloomberg survey of economists. Ten year bond yields rose by 15 basis points.
From Wall St Journal
Which group is more morally offensive? Israel, Hamas, US, Australia, Great Britain, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Saudi Royalty, Russian separatists, Russia, Hizbollah, drug lords at the border of Guatamala and Honduras...
Perhaps pretext to war should simply state: "We are going in. We can because we got the bombs and they don't. We want their stuff." How about that. Truth in war. So much better, don't you think?
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Could not agree with you more.
On your comments about the Israeli president, the way the leader of the "chosen people" talks down to US president Obama, you would think Benjamin Netanyahu is the leader of the free world.
Netanyahu is just a superior prick.
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Sums up what actually happens minus all the propaganda bull****.
Who are the masters of propaganda???
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Does the facts that there are worst atrocities excuse or lessen this atrocities?
Does that fact that this is what the mighty does to the weak and the poor excuse it?
Does the fact that Hitler "only" murder some 5.7 million Jews make that less a crime than the death of some 20 million in Poland, some 26 million Russians and all the deaths from WW2 more of a crime than the Holocaust?
I bet that if you do a survey of people in the US or Australia as to who suffer during WW2, the answer will be just the Jewish people and that's about it.
Nagasaki or Hiroshima - forget it, they deserve it; the Chinese in Nanjing; the South East Asians, the people of the Pacific; the Russian, the other Europeans, the Africans... their suffering are just casualties of war while the Jewish death are more special.
No one is making light of the Holocaust, no one is making light of any death or war or suffering... maybe we ought to learn from it, maybe we ought to try to prevent it - to any group of people, from any group of people.
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Bingo, the truth finally comes out.
The Jews are the only people to be persecuted and murdered in history.
But, it is OK to do the same to the Palestinians.
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Yea, he's a delusional moron in a class of his own.
I read that Obama called him recently to talk of ceasefire or peace talks, Netanyahu then went on air almost right way and tell Israel and the world to prepare for a long and sustained war.
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When Obama first came to power he hinted at not taking any sh*t from Israel. However the jewish lobby soon shut him up. Now that Obama is towards the end of his presidency, I hope he makes a tangible stand against that f***ing war monger Netanyahu.
DeepState
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1. Seems to have sailed over your head like a Scud missile as per so many of the comments made in response to your views.
The point was to highlight that Australia, Great Britain and the US lead a coalition of the willing under a context (World Trade) and under very poor intel about WMD that was so bad it can only be regarded as formulated pretext (say, the killing of three Israeli kids by their own army as you can't seem to rule out) to invade a country because it had WMD as was part of a newly invented Axis of Evil, turn it upside down, killed and maimed so many multiples of the people you are talking about here, with weaponry so far ahead of the opposition that they might as well be throwing rocks. What we...you live in the country...did can be seen in the same light as you see Israel. Actually, it was far worse. We also live with democratic values yadda yadda. Many people in this country don't like to kill either. They don't like to see little kids under rubble either. But we did it. And you are part of it, just like a stack of other Israelis are part of their war despite having similar humanitarian urges. And we left behind a catastrophe whose full horror has yet to reveal itself. That's what a power vacuum looks like. Israel is a cute kitty cat in comparison to this. And you live and breathe and enjoy the freedoms and benefits of a country that did this.
If the actions of Israel upset you, Behold the horror of the nation you live in, under whose protections you enjoy. And we don't even have to go into the Vietnam War, do we?
Welcome to the world, you're standing in it.
2. How is that different to what John Howard was saying? Israel cannot lose a war. That's the reality. You keep going on and on about Mearsheimer. Morganthau was his mentor. Dr. Realist. Mearsheimer added some tought to it. International politics occurs in an anarchic framework. In this world, which is the one you actually live in were you to look beyond documentaries, nations compete. They expand where they can. They want more. And, so the world develops. What you are seeing in Israel/Palestine is realism in action writ large. Feel free to carry a World Peace protect flag. This stuff is truly ugly. You don't have to like it. But Israel is just acting as Mearsheimer and Morganthau would predict.
The greatest bastion of democracy and its values is the US. Are you aware of the amount of stuff they get up to in the name of defending the way of life? They've probably got you bugged and know which YouTube videos you have been watching to check if you are a jihadist. Think about it....before you click on another anti-Israeli link. Are you aware of how many wars, skirmishes, indirect financing, toppling of leadership, violations of human rights, atom bombs released....have taken place to defend the values you want so much? This is the price. There is no Boxing Day discount for this. This is the price. Mistakes and all.
3. Yes there is. France, the UK, Poland and Russia also had a lot of Germans near their borders too. Rather a lot closer to their densely populated centers. When they tried not to provoke the re-militarizing Germans (let's not upset them....nooo.. they might hate us and hurt us...). Umm...let me spell it out. The European Theatre descended into World War II. Thus far, the greatest human tragedy we have ever recorded. That's what appeasement does.
4. ....and the US avenged the deaths of Americans in the Trade Centre completely disproportionately. Radicalizing a stack of Muslims, many more of which would gladly fly a plane into the White House. Great move that. The deal that was done with Saudi Arabia in terms of oil vs protection was made with the leadership. It was genuinely important for US strategic interests. These are the trade-offs on a world scale. As Kissinger puts it, statesmen should be exempt from war crimes, because of the things they must do to defend their states. If you don't like it and think it hypocritical, you might wish to reconsider whether what they say as truth. Think like Mearsheimer. What comes out of their mouths is what you want to hear. Then they get on with the actual realities. We all liked fairy tales once. Some of us still seem to.
How many of Bin Laden's family were living it up in the US when the twin towers were hit? He might have hated the US, but a whole bunch of others seemed pretty happy about it. Can't please every radical, I guess.
5. .....open...your...eyes.
6. You don't have to like it. It is disgusting. You don't have to pull the trigger if a rifle was put in your hands. You can hand it to the guy charging at you with a fixed bayonet instead. But, many soldiers in war feel the same. Check out the history of Gallipoli when it became trench warfare. They just wanted to go home too. No-one says this is nice. Well, not me, anyway.
7. You still don't know it. Can you not make some allowance for the variety of comments you have received to see the barest morsel of truth in them? After all, they are reasonably aligned in disagreement and don't seem to write as if they are the same poster on multiple accounts. From the thread the likelihood is, actually, no. You won't listen and things therefore will not change and you will go on about it and think something uniquely hyprocritical is going on, whose values you do not share despite happily sharing in the benefits. Peace is so precious. But often the price is war.
In this case, it is a blood feud. That is the nastiest form of war.
DeepState
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There is no right. No-one gets to claim the moral high ground. And yet, once again, where nations fail, you stand atop the mountain of righteousness enjoying the view without bothering to look at the fact that this mountain is covered in blood. Get it?
DeepState
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I just saw this again and completely gagged, confirming the entire lack of gratitude for those who actually gave their lives in the service of their nations to uphold the values you shout from the bleachers about. This is an unbelievably callous statement and a complete insult to to those whose sacrifice for Australia and the United States you will hopefully never equal. Take that survey, and see if you survive the first 100 visits.
Australia lost 40,500 lives in the war with many many more wounded.
The United States lost 418,500 lives with many many more wounded.
What kind of warped mind comes up with the statement you have just made? This hits rock bottom. You cannot produce anything more vile than this.
....the answer will be just the Jewish people and that's about it..... disgusting.
LuuTzu: I will put up as a wager, the value of whatever assets you can muster together, down to the cufflink, including whatever 50 years of your personal servitude might be worth as a servant of the War Memorials in Australia and in the US. I will take that bet. I will take that bet RIGHT NOW.
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Sheesh the Lefties got on the turps last night wonder if they have a hangover this morning.
BTW Agree totally with Retired Young's perspective with the exception of Iraq war, quite insightful posts.
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Yes it was a bit off topic Rumpy but the questioned was asked and I answered it the best way I could.
Julia
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Some well expressed,impeccable logic from one person in particular which, thank goodness, helps to balance out the rubbish, especially including those where asterisks appear to replace a more edifying vocabulary.
Just on what is unfolding in Iraq, I'm reminded of the pathetic, whining attempt at justification after it was demonstrated that there were no WMD, "Well, we did them a favour by getting rid of that evil dictator, Saddam".
Not looking like such a great idea now, is it?
Just on what is unfolding in Iraq, I'm reminded of the pathetic, whining attempt at justification after it was demonstrated that there were no WMD, "Well, we did them a favour by getting rid of that evil dictator, Saddam".
Not looking like such a great idea now, is it?
