Israel - Palestine

[burglar]

... And then, I come across you (LuuTzu). Who (LuuTzu) thinks I sit on a banana lounge all day sipping daiquiris ...

Funny on so many levels! :
Obvious that RY is either
1. not sitting on a banana lounge,
2. or not sitting all day,
3. or not sipping daiquiris.






So I wished for clarification.

:topic

But since we're at it.

Well, I have a 50 meter indoor pool heated to tropical temperatures, complete with wave machine. I entirely eschew banana lounges. That's so white shoe brigade. I have had delivered from Italy a cut down version of the yacht that Jordon Belfort had, the Nadine. I sit on that and am partial to Margaritas ingested via the body shot method.

When are you coming around?

:alcohol:

I believe RY specified a daiquiri. A delicious cocktail with white rum, sugar syrup, egg white and lemon juice shaken over ice.

So despite what LuuTzu supposedly thinks, RY claims to be partial to Margaritas. A cocktail consisting of tequila, triple sec (such as Cointreau) and lime or lemon juice, often served with salt on the rim of the glass.




I hope the explanation kills the humour and we can all get back to the Kindergarten brawl that was "Israel - Palestine"

 

[Julia]

Thank you Julia. I stand corrected and unreservedly apologise for this error in translation. I read one thing and wrote down another. Silly me. I regret any inconvenience this may have caused and will happily shout a round in recompense. More if you are good looking and where I think I am half a chance.

Well, someone, not sure which of us, has had too many of the aforementioned cocktails, resulting in confusion, it seems.
I was just (while happily reminiscing about the pleasure of the daiquiri) filling burglar in on the recipe.
Subsequently, I think, you appeared to switch your preference to the margarita.
Whatever, undoubtedly entirely uninteresting to most readers.

 

[Julia]

Back more or less on topic, I'm presently reading a stunningly excellent, if terrifying book "I am Pilgrim" by Terry Hayes. Yes, it's fiction, but 700 pages of what could very feasibly happen if a muslim fanatic wished to destroy America, via synthesized smallpox.

The book traverses many conflicts, including that of Israel-Palestine. An excerpt seemed pertinent when I came to it today:

The protagonist meets an old Jew sweeping a square. The old man's parents and five siblings were Holocaust victims. The old man himself was a survivor of three death camps, including Auschwitz. The protagonist asked him what he had learned from his experience. He said he'd learned that when millions of people, a whole political system, countless numbers of citizens who believed in a God, said they were going to kill you - just listen to them.

 

[DeepState]

Mission accomplished somewhat, The Iraq war/invasion was about the US and Allies taking the war on terror to a battlefield, a theatre of war where western civilians were not in harms way, any Muslim nutter who could afford a plane ticket went to Iraq to wage Al-Qa'ida's war, the Allies had em right where they wanted them.

Hi

I was caught up in another discussion.

Yes, I think the highly intensive part of the operation caused a great deal of damage to the fighting capability in the Iraqi military and anti-West sympathisers. But, like taking penicillin with an incomplete eradication of the pathogen, it seemed to have grown back somewhat and become more resistant. Using the lens you have proposed (which I think is entirely reasonable by the way):

1. How do you react to the fact that Iraq is possibly more unstable now than before? In terms of threat to the US, at least according to Chomsky's recount per the video pinned to this thread, it likely increased the likelihood of terror activities targeted at the US (and possibly its allies by extension - not said by Chomsky).

2. Do you believe the radicalisation and creation of even more heinous militants than Al-Qaeda in the form of ISIS was partly the result of the invasion?

3. What score out of 10 would you give the Iraq 2 effort, to the point the US left its soil, only to return to advise on it later...


Here's my response, so it is clear that this is just an open question:

1. Saddam Hussein was a tyrant, but he was a strongman who managed to coerce some form of stability. It couldn't last forever, but there are other ways to change regimes. This effort at regime change does not appear to be particularly successful and has led to a more fluid internal conflict than before in the East although the Kurds have managed to defend an autonomous region.

The US went in. It's allies also engaged in a show of solidarity with a vital strategic partner despite a real lack of moral conviction or evidence of threat from Iraq. They got the spoils. It would be interesting for someone better informed to post up the energy and construction contracts secured by Halliburton, KBR and the like as a result of the post-war reconstruction and commercialisation of the oil fields.


2. Al Qaeda was already so vicious that moderates turned against them eventually. ISIS was so bad that Al Qaeda complained that they gave Al Qaeda a bad name. I had not heard of ISIS until the latest incursion. Also, war brings much collateral damage. Being collaterally damaged does not lesson one's pain. I suspect there would be increased hatred of the West as a result of Iraq II and increased radicalisation. Others will have much more definitive data.


3. It depends.

a. Seizure of assets and development of economic theft: 9/10
b. Securing stability of the region as liberators of the Iraqi people: 4/10
c. Disposing of WMD: Cannot be determined, there were no WMD to dispose of, so no marks can be awarded as none were on offer.

Equally weighting, for lack of a better concept, 6.5/10. C.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4362496/buch-yale-c-student


I am responding to your post with acknowledgment that this is only tangentially relevant to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and, perhaps, purposeful for comparisons, justifications, scenarios and lessons learned only. I believe that these situations may be substituted to some degree for such purposes.

 

[noco]

I read with interest this link explaining how Hamas has engineered it's fight against Israel.

The tunnel system set up by Hamas is enormous and it is no wonder Israel has a battle on it's hands and the reason they have sent in ground troops to detect and destroy the Hamas elaborate underground net work.

Israel is really up against a Vietcong type of warfare with booby traps located in the tunnels.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/subterranean-threats/story-fnb64oi6-1227013330281

 

[bellenuit]

He said he'd learned that when millions of people, a whole political system, countless numbers of citizens who believed in a God, said they were going to kill you - just listen to them.

How very true. There are too many apologists for Islamic terrorism who come up with every which excuse as to why their actions (not particularly Hamas) are motivated as a response to some Western humiliation of Muslims in the past and ignore the very words that those terrorists say are their motivation.

Before I post an article that illustrates many people's refusal to just listen to what is being said by the Islamic terrorists, again I want to reiterate that I think that though Israel is in an impossible situation, their recent actions have been shocking and over the top. In fact, watching some of what is done in the last week, I would add that I think they are intent on destroying all Gazian infrastructure to make the place unliveable.

What Would Hamas Do If It Could Do Whatever It Wanted?

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...o-whatever-it-wanted/375545/?single_page=true

People are capable of committing genocide. When they tell us they intend to commit genocide, we should listen.

 

[luutzu]

Back more or less on topic, I'm presently reading a stunningly excellent, if terrifying book "I am Pilgrim" by Terry Hayes. Yes, it's fiction, but 700 pages of what could very feasibly happen if a muslim fanatic wished to destroy America, via synthesized smallpox.

The book traverses many conflicts, including that of Israel-Palestine. An excerpt seemed pertinent when I came to it today:

The protagonist meets an old Jew sweeping a square. The old man's parents and five siblings were Holocaust victims. The old man himself was a survivor of three death camps, including Auschwitz. The protagonist asked him what he had learned from his experience. He said he'd learned that when millions of people, a whole political system, countless numbers of citizens who believed in a God, said they were going to kill you - just listen to them.

So what if a leadership said: We have to make sure the Palestinians know they will get nothing from us, that they either leave or live like dogs.

Or the stated aim of a nation is to be a "Jewish State". Then its laws and conducts show what that mean to non_Jewish citizens.

The above are two facts, not fiction... and it is being carried out, not talk or imagined.

But I guess we read what we want to hear, fictional or otherwise.

 

[SirRumpole]

Back more or less on topic, I'm presently reading a stunningly excellent, if terrifying book "I am Pilgrim" by Terry Hayes. Yes, it's fiction, but 700 pages of what could very feasibly happen if a muslim fanatic wished to destroy America, via synthesized smallpox.

Smallpox is so virulent, how does our terrorist think he can stop the spread of the disease to his own country ?

 

[luutzu]

How very true. There are too many apologists for Islamic terrorism who come up with every which excuse as to why their actions (not particularly Hamas) are motivated as a response to some Western humiliation of Muslims in the past and ignore the very words that those terrorists say are their motivation.

Before I post an article that illustrates many people's refusal to just listen to what is being said by the Islamic terrorists, again I want to reiterate that I think that though Israel is in an impossible situation, their recent actions have been shocking and over the top. In fact, watching some of what is done in the last week, I would add that I think they are intent on destroying all Gazian infrastructure to make the place unliveable.

What Would Hamas Do If It Could Do Whatever It Wanted?

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...o-whatever-it-wanted/375545/?single_page=true

People are capable of committing genocide. When they tell us they intend to commit genocide, we should listen.

Yes, it's either you're with us or against us, right?

By the same logic, the people who fought for civil rights in the US just hate White people; those who argue for rights of women hates men; those who defend forests and natural wonders hates humans and want no civilisation.

Yes, I've heard that if only Hamas and the foolish Gazans wanted peace, they could have turned Gaza into a Singapore or a Hong Kong... instead they chose to dig tunnels and want to pick fights with the 4th most powerful military in the world.

---
The US took Texas, New Mexico, California (and probably a couple more I don't know)... I'm sure the Mexicans who lost their land then hated the US and wish it will, probably fought one or two wars to try regain their land... But a border is put up, these formerly states of Mexico are now part of the USA... and life goes on.

But for some reason, according to Israeli and its apologists, the Palestinians, like all Arabs, just want war, just dig tunnels of terror so they can kill citizens of one of history's deadliest military.

Give me a break.

How people keep buying stories that facts, reality, history, common sense just can't comprehend is a little beyond me.

I guess you'll have to be ones who think that you love life more, that you love your children more, that your religion preaches peace while theirs of hate... that's how it's done.

 

[luutzu]

I read with interest this link explaining how Hamas has engineered it's fight against Israel.

The tunnel system set up by Hamas is enormous and it is no wonder Israel has a battle on it's hands and the reason they have sent in ground troops to detect and destroy the Hamas elaborate underground net work.

Israel is really up against a Vietcong type of warfare with booby traps located in the tunnels.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/subterranean-threats/story-fnb64oi6-1227013330281

Tunnels are defensive measures. No army (including terrorists) dig tunnels to attack, they dig so they can hide and not be sitting ducks.

If you look at the bombings by Israel, most are on buildings, presumably because there are tunnels there... how many tunnels did they bomb at the borders or towards Israel?

 

[luutzu]

Smallpox is so virulent, how does our terrorist think he can stop the spread of the disease to his own country ?

He's a terrorists, terrorists don't care about life. His sole purpose in life is to harm the West, kill Jews and go to his God.

 

[noco]

He's a terrorists, terrorists don't care about life. His sole purpose in life is to harm the West, kill Jews and go to his God.

Those terrorist and suicide bombers only think of those 12 beautiful virgins waiting for them in heaven.

 

[bellenuit]

Those terrorist and suicide bombers only think of those 12 beautiful virgins waiting for them in heaven.

You're short changing them Noco. It's 72.

 

[Julia]

How very true.

I'm glad that at least one person got it.

There are too many apologists for Islamic terrorism who come up with every which excuse as to why their actions (not particularly Hamas) are motivated as a response to some Western humiliation of Muslims in the past and ignore the very words that those terrorists say are their motivation.

Exactly.

So what if a leadership said: We have to make sure the Palestinians know they will get nothing from us, that they either leave or live like dogs.

Or the stated aim of a nation is to be a "Jewish State". Then its laws and conducts show what that mean to non_Jewish citizens.

The above are two facts, not fiction... and it is being carried out, not talk or imagined.

I'm not surprised that you fail to comprehend what the excerpt was saying.
And you can rabbit on with your stuff as much as you like. I've seen nothing in the last several pages which made much sense.

But I guess we read what we want to hear, fictional or otherwise.

Oh, the irony!

 

[luutzu]

You're short changing them Noco. It's 72.

Here's something funny from George Carlin: Fighting for peace is like f'ing for virginity.

Here's something funnier for the peace makers to have done: According to Miko Peled, some 50 000 homes (Arabs of course) were demolished in Israel because there were some evidence that that area was the old kingdom of King David... Someone Peled said there is no historical evidence existed at all.

And here's a classic on the level of terrorists killing innocents to be with God and get 72 virgins:

From Chomsky, the American Christian Zionists greatly support Israel and its total claim to Palestine. Their reason is that from their Bible, once the Jewish people reclaim all Palestine, then the ground is set for the second coming of Christ.

All of humanity will die of course, Armageddon and all, maybe only 160 000 Jewish will be saved since they will turn to Christ in time... but all of humanity will die... so they support Zionist Israel and is a good friend to the Jewish people.



Funny right? Rolling on the floor, laugh out loud kinda jokes..

 

[Julia]

Smallpox is so virulent, how does our terrorist think he can stop the spread of the disease to his own country ?

Rumpole: a few points:
1. I'm less than halfway through the 700 page book.

2. The terrorist has devised a complex scheme to introduce the virus to America. To demonstrate the effectiveness of the synthesized compound even against people vaccinated against smallpox, he has had no compunction in testing it on innocent civilians he has captured.

3. His hatred of America is so virulent that it's all that matters to him.
Consider the willing sacrifice Hamas is presently making of the Palestinian people in order to further their own political ends. It's a similar principle.

I think you'd find it worth reading the book. I'm an avid reader and this has captured my attention above anything else I've read in the last several years, even including the wonderful "The Narrow Road to the Deep North" by Richard Flanagan which is up for so many awards.

 

[luutzu]

I'm glad that at least one person got it.
Exactly.

I'm not surprised that you fail to comprehend what the excerpt was saying.
And you can rabbit on with your stuff as much as you like. I've seen nothing in the last several pages which made much sense.

Oh, the irony!

The age of innocence could last a life time for some people.

I bet you couldn't make out what RY was saying at all before you wrote he made sense.

Just to show that money could could really buy you friends. Though with some friends it could buy, I'd rather be homeless.

Anyway, too much time wasted... time to try to make some money so when I speak out of both side of my mouth, it'll words of wisdom.

 

[noco]

You're short changing them Noco. It's 72.

I'd be happy with 12....don't think I could handle 72 of them.

 

[burglar]

Seriously, I must apologise.

I was making light in this thread!
Then I saw graphic images from Gaza.

I fear that the Israelis will not stop until Gaza City is levelled.

 

[luutzu]

Mike Carlton got fired, "resigned".

An Australian columnist, a representative in one of the fourth pillar of a democracy, got fired for being "rude" to readers... A sad day for Australian democracy.

"To find out who controls you, find out who you cannot criticise" - Voltaire.


I now realise Google didn't overpaid for YouTube at all.

The conflict to Rap music.