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wayneL said:
I advise people to just read the actual points made in this thread. This will expose the above post as total BS.

That is all.
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I totally agree Wayne with people actually reading what has been posted and the evidence behind the statements.
The fact that Wayne has never attempted to respond to the points I raised is telling.

Posts776,777, 790, 799, 800, 815, 817, 832
 
“Some of the terminology that’s bandied around like collective punishment, genocide ... those things are certainly just completely not accurate legally,” Dr Kelly told The Australian.​
​
“And it’s particularly frightening when people who claim to be progressive seem to be supporting a regime that’s medieval and really a dictatorship and has oppressed the Gazan people for the last 70 years, including routine executions of LGBTQI people, the repression of women, the failure to implement any democratic frameworks.”​


Two former Labor ministers are leading a new push to counter misguided attitudes towards Israel “from people who claim to be progressive” – including blaming the nation for collective punishment of Palestinians – and are vowing to support pro-Israel ALP candidates running for parliament.
The newly minted Labor Friends of Israel, led by one-time federal minister Michael Kelly and former NSW treasurer Eric Roozendaal, aims to provide “salient facts” about the conflict, counter misinformation and combat support for Hamas among “progressives”.

The group shares a name with its UK counterpart, Labour Friends of Israel, which has fought to counterbalance pro-Palestinian support within the party after it was plagued by accusations of anti-Semitism during former leader Jeremy Corbyn’s tenure.

Labor Friends of Israel’s objectives include supporting pro-Israel Labor candidates, building links between the ALP and the Israeli Labor Party and encouraging “friendship and understanding with the Jewish community and the Australian Labor Party”.

With Labor ministers Ed Husic and Anne Aly accusing Israel of collectively punishing Palestinians in the conflict with Hamas, Dr Kelly said the group wanted Labor members to be “properly informed”.

“Some of the terminology that’s bandied around like collective punishment, genocide ... those things are certainly just completely not accurate legally,” Dr Kelly told The Australian.

A former army colonel and defence industry minister under Julia Gillard, Dr Kelly said the group supported a two-state solution and a free and democratic Palestine.

He condemned Hamas as a “savage terrorist regime” that was responsible for “horrendous sexual violence and the mutilation, torture and murder of everyone from the elderly to infants”.

“We do support a two-state solution, but I think one of the things that’s been alarming to us has been a lack of understanding of the nature of Hamas,” he said.

“And it’s particularly frightening when people who claim to be progressive seem to be supporting a regime that’s medieval and really a dictatorship and has oppressed the Gazan people for the last 70 years, including routine executions of LGBTQI people, the repression of women, the failure to implement any democratic frameworks.”

The group has emerged as Defence Minister Richard Marles announced the government would not be sending a warship to a US mission to the Red Sea, a decision condemned by Peter Dutton as one that “could only be welcomed by Hamas”. Mr Marles said Australia would provide just six ADF personnel to the mission, while pledging a further five Australian personnel to a wider maritime security operation in the Middle East.

The Labor Friends of Israel website went live days before a group of 50 well-known Labor figures, including former NSW premier and foreign minister Bob Carr, signed an open letter declaring the human rights of Palestinians had been violated.

The website takes a strong pro-Israel line, including saying the Gaza Strip was not under occupation by the Jewish state, rejecting claims that Gaza is the most densely populated place on earth and arguing Hamas was responsible for the conflict in the region.

“Under the Hamas regime, there have been no elections since 2006, no trade unions are permitted, and LGBTIQA+ persons are frequently executed when discovered,” the website says.

“The Gaza Strip is not under occupation by Israel; under international law, the territory must be under the ‘effective control’ of an occupier. There has been no Israeli administration in place or any IDF presence in the Gaza Strip since 2005. The latest attack by Hamas underlines that there is no effective control by Israel.”

The number of members the group has attracted is not known at this stage, though Dr Kelly said a lot of supporters who wanted to see a “civilised and informed debate on Middle East issues” were joining.

Dr Kelly said Labor could learn a lot from the anti-Semitism scandal that plagued UK Labour, which saw Mr Corbyn disendorsed by the party he once led.

“That risk is there for every party,” he said. “If we fall into the trap of lining up with groups that are extreme in any part of the spectrum, or sit back and don’t take action when misinformation or bad behaviour is occurring, then our standards as a society and as a democracy will slide.

“So I think all parties need to be on notice about maintaining the standard.”

Mr Roozendaal said the split within Labor on the issue reflected the liveliness of debate within the party but said those who “don’t recognise Israel’s right to exist are not offering any solutions”.

“There’s no doubt that there have been some voices in this debate that have been pro-Hamas, which is a prescribed terrorist organisation in Australia,” he said.

“I think people that can’t differentiate between a terrorist group and peaceful groups need to really think about what they’re saying.

“We don’t believe Hamas is a partner of peace.”

The Labor Friends of Israel website includes an opinion piece by John Curtin Research Centre executive director Nick Dyrenfurth, who wrote that anti-Semitism was “increasingly cloaked in so-called anti-Zionism”. Dr Dyrenfurth pointed to the hypocrisy of the support those on the side of “progressive politics” provided to Hamas, including Mr Carr.

“When is the last time you heard the likes of Bob Carr support Palestinian self-determination – and rightly so – by lamenting the genocidal charter and terrorism of the rulers of Gaza, Hamas?,” Dr Dyrenfurth wrote on the website.

RHIANNON DOWN​

REPORTER
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basilio said:
I totally agree Wayne with people actually reading what has been posted and the evidence behind the statements.
The fact that Wayne has never attempted to respond to the points I raised is telling.

Posts776,777, 790, 799, 800, 815, 817, 832
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I never responded, because I do not attempt to defend those tragic events, so fallacious argumentation.

I have noted however, that war is tragic, as highlighted in those posts.

Perhaps all that could have been avoided by Hamas (and Palastinian civilians) not gang raping and murdering in the most heinous way, innocent teenage girls at a "peace" party.

N'est-ce pas?

Incidentally, I'm not aware of you calling out the events of Oct 7. Can you enlighten me?
 
basilio said:
Wayne I think you should just stop this Jew Hater shite. It is just vile abuse that adds nothing to any discussion and demeans ASF.
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Hold on a second....
You call people nazis, climate deniers and make comparisons to Hitler for years.
Using those names are in fact trivialising the actual horror they went through. Trump thread alone would see you hang in Israel.

Why are all the left leaners pouncing on the Jews with such feverish glee I wonder.
 
Mr Roozendaal said the split within Labor on the issue reflected the liveliness of debate within the party but said those who “don’t recognise Israel’s right to exist are not offering any solutions”.

“There’s no doubt that there have been some voices in this debate that have been pro-Hamas, which is a prescribed terrorist organisation in Australia,” he said.

“I think people that can’t differentiate between a terrorist group and peaceful groups need to really think about what they’re saying.

“We don’t believe Hamas is a partner of peace.”

 
moXJO said:
Hold on a second....
You call people nazis, climate deniers and make comparisons to Hitler for years.
Using those names are in fact trivialising the actual horror they went through. Trump thread alone would see you hang in Israel.

Why are all the left leaners pouncing on the Jews with such feverish glee I wonder.
Click to expand...

Nope hold on as long as you like just about every comment made by the troll is personal, labing and aggressive with the usual vexatious political comment aimed at other people who dare comment with a different view Bas on the other hand is really one of the moderates on the site with a social conscience.

Trying to score political points while defending the butchering of women and children is just dumb IMHO.
 
Sounds accurate to me. Hamas murdered, tortured and raped 1200 Israeli citizens, Hamas is a recognised terrorist group that is a dictator, the Israeli government have sent in their armed forces to dismantle Hamas and bring criminals to justice, parts of the West are confused.

Under the fantasy timetable, which Australia backed in the UN General Assembly this week, Israel and Hamas should put down their weapons and agree to an immediate ceasefire to end the human suffering in Gaza.​
​
This week, the Albanese government became tangled up in its own contradictions, backing an imperfect UN resolution for a ceasefire despite that resolution not mentioning that Hamas carried out the October 7 massacre of 1200 Israelis. The government’s aim was to amplify its criticism of the high civilian death toll in Gaza, but it was done in a manner that made Australian policy towards Israel seem uneven, confused and contradictory.​
​
Yet, in the end, the position Australia and the international community take on the conflict is background noise to Israel, which is intent on finishing its mission to dismantle Hamas in Gaza.​

The Israel-Hamas war is running on two very different timetables: the real-life one Israel is following and the fantasy one the international community, including Australia and the UN, is following.

Under the fantasy timetable, which Australia backed in the UN General Assembly this week, Israel and Hamas should put down their weapons and agree to an immediate ceasefire to end the human suffering in Gaza.

But at this moment both Israel and Hamas have never been less likely to agree to such a proposal.

Australia, like many Western nations, has agonised over the right form of words to find to relay its dual message of support for Israel’s pursuit of Hamas and its condemnation of the cost in civilian lives of doing so.

This week, the Albanese government became tangled up in its own contradictions, backing an imperfect UN resolution for a ceasefire despite that resolution not mentioning that Hamas carried out the October 7 massacre of 1200 Israelis. The government’s aim was to amplify its criticism of the high civilian death toll in Gaza, but it was done in a manner that made Australian policy towards Israel seem uneven, confused and contradictory.

Yet, in the end, the position Australia and the international community take on the conflict is background noise to Israel, which is intent on finishing its mission to dismantle Hamas in Gaza.

The real-life timetable of this war will not be determined by the UN but by Israel in conjunction with the US, the only nation that has the ability to influence its conduct. The US, unlike many other countries, fully recognises that Israel is determined to wipe out Hamas and sees any “sustainable ceasefire” as an obstacle to that outcome.

It is often forgotten in Australia that public opinion within Israel remains firmly behind the mission to dismantle Hamas and ensure it can never threaten the country again. The strident debate here and elsewhere in the West about the high number of civilian deaths in Gaza is not a dominant factor in public opinion in Israel. For Israelis, the war against Hamas is an existential threat or, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu put it, a “second war of independence”.

Even if the US wanted to, it could never persuade Israel to agree to a permanent ceasefire while Hamas still exists as a military force in Gaza.

The best the US can hope to achieve is to influence the manner in which Israel conducts this war. This is the key contest of ideas that is unfolding between Washington and Jerusalem – a contest that will help determine the length and the nature of the rest of this conflict.

So far Joe Biden has been the rock behind Israel’s ambition to wipe out Hamas. The US President has backed Israel consistently, even as the civilian death toll in Gaza has grown uncomfortably high and even as other countries have watered down their support as a result.

But now even Biden has decided that Israel needs to change the way in which it conducts this war. In his most pointed comments yet, Biden said this week that Israel was losing international support with its “indiscriminate bombing” of Gaza.

“I want them to be focused on how to save civilian lives,” Biden said. “Not stop going after Hamas but be more careful.”

The White House dispatched national security adviser Jake Sullivan to Israel to reinforce its call for a more “surgical” and “precise” campaign to dismantle Hamas.

America’s call is the correct one and is being driven by both humanitarian and political factors. In the US, as elsewhere in the world, there is growing revulsion at the civilian suffering in Gaza, where more than 15,000 people have died according to Gazan health authorities.

Even if these figures are unreliable because Hamas controls the health ministry, blind Freddy can tell you from the harrowing footage that the civilian death toll there is horrific.

Biden is right to call out Israel for what he calls its “indiscriminate bombing” of Gaza while also still firmly supporting its mission to destroy Hamas. These two positions are not incompatible.

In this war, especially in its early stages, Israel has relied too heavily on airstrikes rather than targeted ground operations to dismantle Hamas.

An assessment compiled by the US Office of the Director of National Intelligence says about 40-45 per cent of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided. This broadbased bombing campaign has had the effect of killing many more civilians than terrorists and casts doubt on Israeli claims that it has done all it reasonably can to minimise harm to civilian lives in its pursuit of Hamas.

Even in the US, this has caused the previously strong public support for Israel to fall, especially among young voters, and risks triggering a backlash against Biden for his pro-Israel stance.

More important, the US understands that any eventual post-war solution in Gaza becomes much more problematic if Gaza is turned into an unlivable pile of debris. Every destroyed building and every lost family make peace that much harder when the fighting ends.

For all of these reasons, the US call for Israel to do more to protect civilians and essential infrastructure in Gaza by focusing on targeted ground operations rather than airstrikes makes sense.

Biden has been Israel’s greatest supporter in this conflict, but the President is right to call for Israel to modify the way it fights the rest of this war.

He is also right to continue to give his full support to Israel’s quest to remove Hamas from power. Israel will not be deterred from achieving its aim regardless of what the US says, but it would be wise to heed the advice of its best friend in how it carries out this necessary task.

CAMERON STEWART CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT
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3,000 Years of Israeli-Palestinian Conflict in 13 Minutes​


Has anybody got a better solution than destroying Hamas for all time ?
XYZ Yacht.GIF
 
IFocus said:
Nope hold on as long as you like just about every comment made by the troll is personal, labing and aggressive with the usual vexatious political comment aimed at other people who dare comment with a different view Bas on the other hand is really one of the moderates on the site with a social conscience.

Trying to score political points while defending the butchering of women and children is just dumb IMHO.
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The Trump thread and climate thread outed who were moderates. I don't see any difference.
This thread just seems to fall along the same political lines.
Honestly I'm not a supporter of either side. The religious stances of Israel and Palestinians would see them destroy one another without much care. They would lie to us and use us in an instant if it meant gaining an advantage. However Palestinians teach hate to their kids at school. We saw it when they all spat on the body of that girl. They also slaughtered a large number of thai nationals. They were dancing in the streets about it.
Just that dismissed any notions of "Freedom fighting". Why kill those that were not Israelis in such a manner.

Israel is somewhat of an ally, anyone backed by Iran isn't. Israel from news reports seems to be on a mission to destroy Gaza.

To me this just seems like the latest talking point drawn along political biases.
Ukraine dropped off and Africa didn't even rate a mention.

Reap what you sow.
You elected hamas.
You killed innocent foreigners.
You celebrated it.
 
There are a lot of Iranians and Palestinians that don't support their governments.

Removing hamas is the priority. I'd honestly like to see the Iranian government fall as well.
 
moXJO said:
The Trump thread and climate thread outed who were moderates. I don't see any difference.
This thread just seems to fall along the same political lines.
Honestly I'm not a supporter of either side. The religious stances of Israel and Palestinians would see them destroy one another without much care. They would lie to us and use us in an instant if it meant gaining an advantage. However Palestinians teach hate to their kids at school. We saw it when they all spat on the body of that girl. They also slaughtered a large number of thai nationals. They were dancing in the streets about it.
Just that dismissed any notions of "Freedom fighting". Why kill those that were not Israelis in such a manner.

Israel is somewhat of an ally, anyone backed by Iran isn't. Israel from news reports seems to be on a mission to destroy Gaza.

To me this just seems like the latest talking point drawn along political biases.
Ukraine dropped off and Africa didn't even rate a mention.

Reap what you sow.
You elected hamas.
You killed innocent foreigners.
You celebrated it.
Click to expand...

The failure of security and current method of dealing with it is a Israeli government political decision not necessary a Jewish one.

Netanyahu has been a massive failure and the wholesale killing of civilians in Gaza adds to the list.

To criticize Netanyahu and his seriously nutcase government (seen who the ministers are?) this is not anti Jewish or pro Hamas position, clearly the killing going on is well outside of agreements establish since WW2 enemies' of the West will happily point to this conflict when they come after us.

The problems with the current Israeli actions is its wider implications which are obvious and numerous.
 
IFocus said:
The failure of security and current method of dealing with it is a Israeli government political decision not necessary a Jewish one.

Netanyahu has been a massive failure and the wholesale killing of civilians in Gaza adds to the list.

To criticize Netanyahu and his seriously nutcase government (seen who the ministers are?) this is not anti Jewish or pro Hamas position, clearly the killing going on is well outside of agreements establish since WW2 enemies' of the West will happily point to this conflict when they come after us.

The problems with the current Israeli actions is its wider implications which are obvious and numerous.
Click to expand...

Maybe I missed it, but I have not seen you question or criticise the Hamas leadership and their troops. Hamas that launches attacks from across the border and hide amongst civilian infrastructure, Hamas that invaded an Israeli town and slaughtered civilians.

You go on about the destruction and deaths caused by Israeli armed forces and Netanyahu, but hardly a word about the atrocities and kidnappings by the Hamas or their leadership which is a dictatorship and rules by fear and violence.

I haven't seen you mention that Israel has a democratically elected government and holds fair and legal elections, whereas Palestine has not had an election for a very long time and that Hamas is a dictatorship and deemed a terrorist group by world governments.


It is often forgotten in Australia that public opinion within Israel remains firmly behind the mission to dismantle Hamas and ensure it can never threaten the country again. The strident debate here and elsewhere in the West about the high number of civilian deaths in Gaza is not a dominant factor in public opinion in Israel. For Israelis, the war against Hamas is an existential threat or, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu put it, a “second war of independence”.​
 
IFocus said:
To criticize Netanyahu and his seriously nutcase government (seen who the ministers are?) this is not anti Jewish or pro Hamas position, clearly the killing going on is well outside of agreements establish since WW2 enemies' of the West will happily point to this conflict when they come after us.
Click to expand...

Maybe you missed this -

War is hell.

Protocol I was adopted as an amendment to the Geneva Conventions, prohibiting the deliberate or indiscriminate attack of civilians and civilian objects, even if the area contained military objectives, and the attacking force must take precautions and steps to spare the lives of civilians and civilian objects as possible. However, forces occupying near densely populated areas must avoid locating military objectives near or in densely populated areas and endeavor to remove civilians from the vicinity of military objectives. Failure to do so would cause a higher civilian death toll resulting from bombardment by the attacking force and the defenders would be held responsible, even criminally liable, for these deaths. This issue was addressed because drafters of Protocol I pointed out historical examples such as Japan in World War II who often dispersed legitimate military and industrial targets (almost two-thirds of production was from small factories of thirty or fewer persons or in wooden homes, which were clustered around the factories) throughout urban areas in many of its cities either with the sole purpose of preventing enemy forces from bombing these targets​

Post #785
 
Last edited:
IFocus said:
The failure of security and current method of dealing with it is a Israeli government political decision not necessary a Jewish one.

Netanyahu has been a massive failure and the wholesale killing of civilians in Gaza adds to the list.

To criticize Netanyahu and his seriously nutcase government (seen who the ministers are?) this is not anti Jewish or pro Hamas position, clearly the killing going on is well outside of agreements establish since WW2 enemies' of the West will happily point to this conflict when they come after us.

The problems with the current Israeli actions is its wider implications which are obvious and numerous.
Click to expand...
I agree with your own self profile 100%
You are truly a Galah and I will not waist another minute of my life reading your rants and ravings

As St Dude said
" You Can't Help the Hopeless"
XYZ Yacht.GIF
 

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